BDSM and misogyny

[Edith_UK]

As an anarchist, switch, and radical individualist, let me just say that I believe that true liberation lies in doing what you please, not what any community tells you to do. If you're vanilla, fine. If you're Dom, switch, or sub, also fine. It shouldn't matter whether or not you have a cock or pussy between your legs, or for that matter, if your partner (s) does (do). Same goes for poly vs. monogamy. Stick to your guns and be what you want to be. That's a truly liberated woman (or man, in my case).

Anyone else is the tyranny of the collective, whether that collective is the State, the Sisterhood, the Goreans, or the Church.

What a load of shit The freedom you're talking bout is a capitalist illusion mate. We're social animals, and whether it fits your 'anarchist individualist' view or not we are shaped and influenced by the society that surrounds us. The selfishness of individualism don't breed freedom, not for the majority of working class people, only the rich middle class people who ain't being screwed from above so hard. White, middle class males can wank off about the freedom of individualism. The rest of us fight and defend our freedom by standing together.

Freedom like knowing your Mam won't die if she gets sick just cos you can't afford health insurance. Freedom to demand a living wage cos your in a union. Freedom to think and say that our governments a bunch of rich kids screwing us over, same as it ever was.

Your individualist 'freedom' to have a wank how you want means nothing.

no, that is not at all what i mean. nor do feminists hold a monopoly over those ideals.

Feminism IS the idea that women are equal to men, and should fight to be treated as such. If you believe that, then you're a feminist even if it don't suit your identity to say it.

It pisses me off that women nowadays have to qualify there feminism by going 'but I'm still really pretty yer, and I still shave my arm pits, and I still like men, and please don't think I'm a lesbian or owt'. What the fuck? I'm a feminist and sometimes I can't be arsed to shave, and sometimes I pick my nose n eat it (not in front of the kids tho yer ), and I'm a mouthy bitch. So fuckin what? I'm still sexy as fuck

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, that's always the risk you take when you play with power. When you're giving your power to someone else, you'd better make sure you know the value of what you're giving and know that your PYL will treat that gift with respect.

D/s is problematic. It's the eroticisation of problematic things. Things like... owning someone, or bossing them around, or depriving them of their autonomy. And so many people don't seem to get what that can mean.

Thing I keep on seeing, is that hetero D/s relationships are inclined towards replicating the same abuses hetero relationships have in the first place. And I get why guys would want to be with women and vice versa, honestly-- it's just that so few hets question or doubt that hetero drive of theirs, or much of anything else about their identity.

One thing about being gay in this world, man you get challenged every fucking day. You ask yourself if you're really gay, you try to find a way around it-- because it's so uncomfortable and inconvenient to be the square peg in a world of round holes-- and when you've finally given up that battle against your basic nature, you KNOW who you are, and you know why and you just know more about yourself than you ever wanted to know.

That's something hets don't have to do. There might be other struggles, but the basic of wanting your lover to be of the other sex? Hey, no problem.

We see so many young women who, by their usage, equate "dom" with "boyfriend." Who equate "submit" with "date." So many men who seem to think that "Sub" is a homonym for "woman." People who, because they have never had to question their identity, still don't think it's that big a deal.

You know-- I see lots of drama in the lesbian and gay worlds, but most of the drama about D/s that I see, is hetero.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Clearly, I ruffled some feathers, but I stand my ground. There is no entrenched power to fight soon enough without the State and other repressive social institutions to back it. Be that as it may, I can see that you're intent on your collectivist vision, wherein you can dictate how people live their lives, even down to what they do with their privates and the fruits of their labors. Excuse me while I throw up and exit this thread. My freedom is not freedom for one class, but for everyone as individuals, each with personal self-worth and rights innate and given only by the laws of Nature. I am not about a zero-sum game, but the steady advance of everyone, even if that advance is at times untidy and uneven.

I'll leave you with this parting thought. If Man (the species) is not fit to govern himself, how is he fit to govern others?

 

[_Stardust]

Well, that's always the risk you take when you play with power. When you're giving your power to someone else, you'd better make sure you know the value of what you're giving and know that your PYL will treat that gift with respect.

D/s is problematic. It's the eroticisation of problematic things. Things like... owning someone, or bossing them around, or depriving them of their autonomy. And so many people don't seem to get what that can mean.

Thing I keep on seeing, is that hetero D/s relationships are inclined towards replicating the same abuses hetero relationships have in the first place. And I get why guys would want to be with women and vice versa, honestly-- it's just that so few hets question or doubt that hetero drive of theirs, or much of anything else about their identity.

Isn't that just the perogative of those who fall into a majority though? People don't question, or even really notice 'the norm' unless they fall outside it. The sexual norm, supposedly, is straight and only 'kinky' enough to be interesting, but nothing too weird. It's validated through most forms of media, so when a teen will only question their orientation if they begin to realise it doens't match the image that has been shoved down their throat by society for the past 15 odd years. That's not to say that your sexuality shouldn't be considered just because you're straight, but at the same time, why would the average person do that?

People post on here all the time, 'I enjoy spanking/humiliating/*insert 'kinky' act here* my significant other. Is that okay?'. Do you think that at the other end of the spectrum you'll find the same conversation? 'I enjoy missionary position, followed by cuddling with the lights off. Is that okay?'

 

[Stella_Omega]

Isn't that just the perogative of those who fall into a majority though?

Yeah.

But when they start doing more, they would benefit from thinking a little bit about their assumptions.

We see so many young women who, by their usage, equate "dom" with "boyfriend." Who equate "submit" with "date." So many men who seem to think that "Sub" is a homonym for "woman." People who, because they have never had to question their identity, still don't think it's that big a deal.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Can you expand on that?

Do you mean as men and women who have 'traditional values' (i.e. men in charge, women does as she's bloody told) get marginalised by feminism then these people are gonna be sidling into munches?

Cos I've wondered that too.

That's exactly what I mean.


Spend some time on Fetlife or Collarme checking out people from "red states".

 

[Edith_UK]

Clearly, I ruffled some feathers, but I stand my ground. There is no entrenched power to fight soon enough without the State and other repressive social institutions to back it. Be that as it may, I can see that you're intent on your collectivist vision, wherein you can dictate how people live their lives, even down to what they do with their privates and the fruits of their labors. Excuse me while I throw up and exit this thread. My freedom is not freedom for one class, but for everyone as individuals, each with personal self-worth and rights innate and given only by the laws of Nature. I am not about a zero-sum game, but the steady advance of everyone, even if that advance is at times untidy and uneven.

I'll leave you with this parting thought. If Man (the species) is not fit to govern himself, how is he fit to govern others?

Oh you're just a nutter. Fair enough Rights are not an innate human characteristic. They are 'given' by the ruling elite when normal people fight with force, collectively, to gain and defend them. Look at womens rights, you think that shit was just handed over? No, there was collective suffrage. You said it yourself, your not interested in freedom of the working class or women. Just the selfish 'freedom' of White middle class men to act how they choose. That ain't freedom, it's just stomping your feet cos other people won't let you do *exactly* what you want

 

[Pelagie]

I think VanessaVixen raised an excellent question: is it abuse if the pyl asks to be abused? I don't think it is. Assuming that the pyl is in a healthy place to choose it.

I am really enjoying this thread.

 

[troubledone]

Oh you're just a nutter. Fair enough Rights are not an innate human characteristic. They are 'given' by the ruling elite when normal people fight with force, collectively, to gain and defend them. Look at womens rights, you think that shit was just handed over? No, there was collective suffrage. You said it yourself, your not interested in freedom of the working class or women. Just the selfish 'freedom' of White middle class men to act how they choose. That ain't freedom, it's just stomping your feet cos other people won't let you do *exactly* what you want

I think Edith you are a philosopher, your understanding of rights is intellectual

 

[eastern sun]

yes. when i learned about groups of women in the Congo who had been gangraped more times than they could count, most physically disfigured in the process, and many having watched their own children and even babies (infants even) suffer the same, coming together and forming small community businesses in the marketing of sewing and crafts overseas, i had so much pride in my gender that i wanted to throw a parade. i don't get why the typical feminist is not even paying attention to those women, and instead wants to form a witchhunt based on sexual positions and the language people use in their own households.

Me either. Western Feminism has completely lost any sense of priority it ever ever had. We're debating plastic surgery while these people burn.

Hear. Hear.

As a culture, we lean towards the easy fights. . . . like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[Edith_UK]

I think VanessaVixen raised an excellent question: is it abuse if the pyl asks to be abused? I don't think it is. Assuming that the pyl is in a healthy place to choose it.

I am really enjoying this thread.

And one glib answer to that is that abuse is not BDSM, cos by definition that requires consent.

I'm more interested in the gray areas, the degree to which consent is influenced by a patriarchal society, how hundreds of years of men being on top effects us all, coercion through economic circumstances, or choices influenced by past abuse. That stuff interests and worries me.

Question for those properly involved in the scene (cos I ain't, only experience I have is PMs/emails from here lol): in your experiences are there a disproportionate number of people involved in the scene who've experienced previous abuse?

I don't mean as a *result* of being in a BDSM relationship. I mean, does physical, sexual or emotional abuse cause people to seek out BDSM?

I'm wondering how shit like that influences choice.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm of the belief that much of our sexuality is hardwired from birth, and then is influenced by the culture we grow up in.

I agree with Rosco that misogynists will tend towards BDSM as a place where they can find validation as the culture "marginalizes" the most overt expressions of that hatred.

But, most people accept that hatred towards a group is usually a learned behavior, either transmitted directly from one's culture and/or generalized from specific experiences.

Who is creating the misogynists among us? Who should be held responsible?

What if it turned out that misogyny in this culture is sometimes BDSM in disguise?

 

[troubledone]

I'm wondering how shit like that influences choice.[/QUOTE]
I'm more interested in the gray areas, the degree to which consent is influenced by a patriarchal society, how hundreds of years of men being on top effects us all, coercion through economic circumstances, or choices influenced by past abuse. That stuff interests and worries me.


Edith UK
I have a different perspective,philosophers like Merton have spoken of the issue
BDSM is appreciated in societies where slavery was non existant
these societies were not necessarily patriarchal

men were on top because women accepted them there ,BDSM revolves around the gift of dominance given by the sub to her dom
we can talk

 

[Edith_UK]

Talk then (here not PM!)

Tell me about what Merton thinks (dunno anything about him!). And tell me about the history of BDSM in non-patriarchal society (again not a clue).

Edie

 

[Edith_UK]

What if it turned out that misogyny in this culture is sometimes BDSM in disguise?

That's interesting...
So you think that cos sexuality is genetically determined, but BDSM is seen as deviant and wrong, then frustrated sexual BDSM feeling might be surfacing unhealthily (like un-consented) as misogyny?

Or that men are hard-wired to dominate women and the fucked extreme of that is misogyny?

I feel like this is potentially interesting but that I'm not quite understanding you or getting it. Can you tell me where I'm going wrong (or is that right?!).

 

[ownedsubgal]

Feminism IS the idea that women are equal to men, and should fight to be treated as such. If you believe that, then you're a feminist even if it don't suit your identity to say it.

It pisses me off that women nowadays have to qualify there feminism by going 'but I'm still really pretty yer, and I still shave my arm pits, and I still like men, and please don't think I'm a lesbian or owt'. What the fuck? I'm a feminist and sometimes I can't be arsed to shave, and sometimes I pick my nose n eat it (not in front of the kids tho yer ), and I'm a mouthy bitch. So fuckin what? I'm still sexy as fuck

you certainly make a lot of assumptions about the ideas and beliefs of others. i never stated or implied anything about feminists being hairy lesbians.

i am not a feminist because i do not believe in male/female equality in all things. i also believe the rights of a free/single woman and that of a married/owned woman are very different. for instance i do not recognize the concept of marital rape. i do not believe an owned woman should have the right to open a bank account without the presence and signature of her Owner, etc. i recognize and value the significant differences between male and female. it does not mean i think of men as "better" or as of having higher value, it is a power thing and a primal instinct thing. i appreciate men living as nature wired them as opposed to forcing themselves into the emasculation western society forces upon them.

and yes, this is generalizing. yes, i recognize exceptions to my beliefs in the natural order (which i actually find quite natural as well). in the primal society i envision, a naturally Dominant woman like Netz for instance would be held up as a community leader, a priestess of sorts without the mumbojumbo. but certainly not a norm.

so you see no, i am not a feminist.

 

[Licia]

Question for those properly involved in the scene (cos I ain't, only experience I have is PMs/emails from here lol): in your experiences are there a disproportionate number of people involved in the scene who've experienced previous abuse?

Disproportionate? A lot of women I know have been abused in their lifetimes, and most of them have no idea what BDSM is. "Sheepishly" accepting that the male cannot evolve beyond asshole, they marry and divorce in cycles. Local dialect vanilla, that.

Those of us who engage in BDSM are considered strange. Some have been abused, but I wouldn't call it disproportionate. Healing and fulfillment is what we get out of it.

I don't mean as a *result* of being in a BDSM relationship. I mean, does physical, sexual or emotional abuse cause people to seek out BDSM?

Frued certainly thought as much, and today's psychology still classifies BDSM as pathological.

http://www.ipgcounseling.com/sites/ipgcounseling.com/files/content/pdf/3psychology_bdsm.pdf

The paradoxical perspective sees sexual preferences of all types as being the result of a complex interaction of biology/genetics: early childhood imprinting experiences (not "abuse", but a wide variety of potential experiences); individual experiences; and social mores and customs.

The paradoxical perspective makes intuitive sense to anyone who is sexually sophisticated, particularly "scene" people. It recognizes, for example, that power dynamics exist in all sexual exchanges; that sex involves aggression as well as love; that sexual arousal often involves playing with so-called "negative emotions" like fear and anxiety; that early childhood experiences are sometimes evoked during sex but this can be healing as well as disturbing; and so on.

^ This.

 

[Edith_UK]

Edit to say: a reply to ownedsubgal

Sorry, I didn't make it clear that the bottom part of my post wasn't aimed at you. That's my mistake

That said, I find your views incredibly offensive. You think a man has the right to rape his wife?! I think you living in some fantasy where you have no appreciation of how damaging and brutal *real* rape and violence is. Grow the fuck up.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Heh. There's an enormous difference between "husband" and "owner," these days.

Sure, there are misogynists in BDSM. There are misogynists everywhere.. There are also racists, activists, tree-hugging liberals, rebels without causees. Those people are everywhere too.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Edit to say: a reply to ownedsubgal

Sorry, I didn't make it clear that the bottom part of my post wasn't aimed at you. That's my mistake

That said, I find your views incredibly offensive. You think a man has the right to rape his wife?! I think you living in some fantasy where you have no appreciation of how damaging and brutal *real* rape and violence is. Grow the fuck up.

again, you make many assumptions about others. you have no idea the kind of life i live or have lived. nor do i feel a need to tell you my life story. just trust that i have a thorough understanding of rape and abuse and physical and psychological torture, in fact it was a lesson learned well before i mastered the art of tying my shoes or reading a clock.

that is quite different than giving yourself to someone, whether via marriage or consensual slavery. no i do not feel a man has the right to rape his wife, i believe a man has the right to use the woman who voluntarily gave herself to him as he pleases. there is no rape.

 

[Edith_UK]

Btw I find it ironic that you say western society has emasculated men, when in fact the reality is that for the vast majority of history men have 'owned' women, raped and beaten their 'possessions' with impunity and in fact up until the 1960s women couldn't get a mortgage without a male signatory.

Why you think men are inherently deserving of this priviledge is beyond me, but it has nothing to do with idealised views of primitive societies.

 

[Stella_Omega]

again, you make many assumptions about others. you have no idea the kind of life i live or have lived. nor do i feel a need to tell you my life story. just trust that i have a thorough understanding of rape and abuse and physical and psychological torture, in fact it was a lesson learned well before i mastered the art of tying my shoes or reading a clock.

Those of us who know you, know this, but anyone reading your post without knowledge of you would never get even the least clue. So you kinda don't get to be upset when people make assumptions based on your rather universal way of writing.

that is quite different than giving yourself to someone, whether via marriage or consensual slavery. no i do not feel a man has the right to rape his wife, i believe a man has the right to use the woman who voluntarily gave herself to him as he pleases. there is no rape.

Not too many women "give themselves via marriage" anymore, and inthe countries where that's true, it's not usually her choice. There is a difference between marriage, which in our society is a partnership of equals, and slavery.

Really, you are talking about yourself in specific, and any other people-- not only women, by the way-- who are like you.

That's a very limited subset of people. You can't delineate them as "women" who are to be subjugated, and "men" who do the subjugation. Not without a big old fight and then you complaining that no one understands you.

 

[Edith_UK]

^ I think that pretty much ends that line of discussion. Except to say I'm sorry for the abuse you've suffered, and I wish you well in the life choices you make.

 

[Loverskitten]

that is quite different than giving yourself to someone, whether via marriage or consensual slavery. no i do not feel a man has the right to rape his wife, i believe a man has the right to use the woman who voluntarily gave herself to him as he pleases. there is no rape.

As he pleases? So as a punching bag, if he had a bad day at work?


BTW wow quite the thread, trying to catch up. I have more thoughts but also earaches and sore throat and feel like crap. Makes it hard to translate thoughts to content. Just shocked at some statements. Nap.....

 

[intothewoods]

Those of us who know you, know this, but anyone reading your post without knowledge of you would never get even the least clue. So you kinda don't get to be upset when people make assumptions based on your rather universal way of writing.
Not too many women "give themselves via marriage" anymore, and inthe countries where that's true, it's not usually her choice. There is a difference between marriage, which in our society is a partnership of equals, and slavery.

Really, you are talking about yourself in specific, and any other people-- not only women, by the way-- who are like you.

That's a very limited subset of people. You can't delineate them as "women" who are to be subjugated, and "men" who do the subjugation. Not without a big old fight and then you complaining that no one understands you.

Marriage is a contract -- heck, all relationships are agreements with terms defined by their participants. You can agree to whatever you want.