Lets try something postive

[Zeb_Carter]

1)And did those "bad doctors" come from medicare exclusively, or where a few of them brought to you by the health insurance you used to crow about-- as I recall?

As I don't have medicare, yet, no. The bad ones were brought to us by them either not really/no longer caring or they were quacks to begin with. My health insurance has never specified who I had to see as most doctors take most all insurance plans in their area.

2)Why would you think that a subjective term like "quality doctor" would be meaningful in an argument about an objective situation that impacts real people really?

Which news?

Yes.

And now you want me to do your research? Really?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Either,
Baboons

Or

Buffoons.

Wasn't sure which

Both work.

Would you believe that's a contraction for both of them?

(and I'm pissed cuz the auto spell check didn't even hiccup!)

 

[Stella_Omega]

As I don't have medicare, yet, no. The bad ones were brought to us by them either not really/no longer caring or they were quacks to begin with. My health insurance has never specified who I had to see as most doctors take most all insurance plans in their area.



Yes.

It's always so interesting to me, the ways that conservatives think

And now you want me to do your research? Really?

Not my research. Yours. I want you to back up your assertions with reference links.

 

[colddiesel]

single payer brings death panels in full force with it. Single payer guarantees a diminishing level of healthcare as you grow older. If you were EITHER smart, OR cared about your parents/grandparents, you wouldn't even suggest that disaster waiting to happen!!!

UK is single payer, yet UK citizens live on average 2.2 years longer than Americans. Switzerland and Australia are about 70% government payer and they live even longer. Why?

 

[mikey2much]

so far, we have some good imput

Lets for a moment stop thinking of ourselves as either right or left, lets step back from our own positions and look at our country from new eyes.

We have a group of people in our country that have riches we can't imagine.
The man who is supporting Newt's run for president has so much money, that if you took the ten million he gave Newt, and used that as a percentage of his earnings and then compared his earnings to an average american that ten million he spent was only as much as forty five bucks to the average man earning fifty thousand dollars a year. You need to sit there and let that soak in for a moment. Ten million to him equals forty five dollars to me and you.

I know that some of you make more, but lots of us make less also, but to me the fact that a presidental run to him cost only as much for him as taking our wife out to dinner cost us is a sobering thought. That kind of money is power in and of itself.

While I feel that for him to be able to run his own man for president is his right, I don't think that his fortune should be held as being more important than the basic needs of those that live around his estates.

The bottom line is this, wealth is power. Power makes the rules. The people only have thier vote to help guide the ways the power is used. In the past, the tax rate was so high that the rich were forced to use their money in certain ways to avoid a ninty five percent tax rate for the richest. They had to give to charities, and invest their money in ways that helped the country. They were forced to make their money work for all of us.

Now, since the eighties we have allowed the system to drift into this situation where the rich can stand seperate from the rest of us. This makes the average worker become ants at their picnic, and the laws passed by the lobbist for the rich has taken steps to protect their picnic from our needs.

The gridlock in washington is something that has been constructed for a reason, and that reason is to do away with the middle class. (using the picnic as an example, think of the middle class as the ants that has made it to the blanket that the food is on.) If you remove the middle class from our country what have you got left. Like a movie once said, you only have the truely needy and the truely greedy.

What would you guys think of going back to the old tax laws? They worked very well for many years. The old tax laws were the reason we got libraries built all over america, they were the reason our schools used to be a reasonable places to learn. Today they are holding cells for children where they are trained to follow rules, keeping order is the primary goal, not teaching.

In my mind the rich have deserted america, and America needs to bring them back into the group, or cut them loose and start over. One way or the other America should be a country where every man has a chance to have a family and a place to live. I don't want to live as a ant at the picnic, I want to live as a man with certain rights and entitlements.

The reason I started this thread is to get your ideas on how you think we should go about it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The real issue isnt the money.

The real issue is the corruption money buys.

I've known wealthy people who lived modestly and used their millions to fund public, scientific, and charitable endeavors. Money in the right hands does wonders.

I know poor people who won fortunes and used the money for all the usual stuff and toys till the money was kaput, and they were back on welfare.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Lets for a moment stop thinking of ourselves as either right or left, lets step back from our own positions and look at our country from new eyes.

We have a group of people in our country that have riches we can't imagine.
The man who is supporting Newt's run for president has so much money, that if you took the ten million he gave Newt, and used that as a percentage of his earnings and then compared his earnings to an average american that ten million he spent was only as much as forty five bucks to the average man earning fifty thousand dollars a year. You need to sit there and let that soak in for a moment. Ten million to him equals forty five dollars to me and you.

I know that some of you make more, but lots of us make less also, but to me the fact that a presidental run to him cost only as much for him as taking our wife out to dinner cost us is a sobering thought. That kind of money is power in and of itself.

While I feel that for him to be able to run his own man for president is his right, I don't think that his fortune should be held as being more important than the basic needs of those that live around his estates.

The bottom line is this, wealth is power. Power makes the rules. The people only have thier vote to help guide the ways the power is used. In the past, the tax rate was so high that the rich were forced to use their money in certain ways to avoid a ninty five percent tax rate for the richest. They had to give to charities, and invest their money in ways that helped the country. They were forced to make their money work for all of us.

Now, since the eighties we have allowed the system to drift into this situation where the rich can stand seperate from the rest of us. This makes the average worker become ants at their picnic, and the laws passed by the lobbist for the rich has taken steps to protect their picnic from our needs.

The gridlock in washington is something that has been constructed for a reason, and that reason is to do away with the middle class. (using the picnic as an example, think of the middle class as the ants that has made it to the blanket that the food is on.) If you remove the middle class from our country what have you got left. Like a movie once said, you only have the truely needy and the truely greedy.

What would you guys think of going back to the old tax laws? They worked very well for many years. The old tax laws were the reason we got libraries built all over america, they were the reason our schools used to be a reasonable places to learn. Today they are holding cells for children where they are trained to follow rules, keeping order is the primary goal, not teaching.

In my mind the rich have deserted america, and America needs to bring them back into the group, or cut them loose and start over. One way or the other America should be a country where every man has a chance to have a family and a place to live. I don't want to live as a ant at the picnic, I want to live as a man with certain rights and entitlements.

The reason I started this thread is to get your ideas on how you think we should go about it.

Here's the deal Comrade Mikey (and yeah, you do sound pretty much like a communist, except that though you are all for the "everyone shares the wealth equally" part, I don't think you are much up for the "everybody works equally" part)

As a rabid social progressive I am completely down with most of what you want, but as a fiscal realist I know that destroying the wealth in this country is neither desirable or necessary. I just want to take away their great advantage. In other words, I'm all for an even playing field, but tilting it in your direction vs. theirs ain't gonna get it either, dude.

You want your entitlements? Good, so do I.

To get them you need to make EVERYBODY pay their fair share of taxes and actually pay for the damn things. THAT means the rich pay a much higher percentage of their income towards these entitlements, BUT SO WILL YOU!

Ain't no such thing as a free lunch, dude, and if you want to eat you've got to pay your fair share too, you just can't take it all from the wealthy.

The same applies to jobs, BTW. You want good, high paying jobs here in America? Cool, so do I. The difference is that where we both agree that that will take forcing corporations to stop shipping jobs overseas, stop buying cheap foreign raw materials and to settle for only reasonable profits, I acknowledge that those jobs will also mean that I will be paying much higher prices and that the low cost imported goods we are used to can no longer be permitted into this country to compete with the more expensive domestic goods.

You don't get to have both. Sorry, that's just not reality.

 

[R. Richard]

My question is;

What is a "quality doctor?"

A quality doctor is one who graduates from colleg, from medical school and then passes the (usually) state medical board certification. The process takes from seven years to perhaps as long as 11 years. The final step in the process is that the quality doctor then serves as a resident, who's work is reviewed by other, more experienced doctors. If I have to go into a hospital for treatment, I want a quality doctor, who makes enough money to attract the very best.

I answered your question, now please have the courtesy to answer my question. Under the medical care program, passed by Congress, and now being debated by the Supreme Courta doctor can't realistically make enogh money to make being a doctor an attractive proposition. Under the proposed medical care program, where are you going to find enough doctors who are willing to work for perhaps $10 per hour? TIA.

 

[Bebeslut]

Lets us make a list of what we can do to make our country better. Lets talk about what we can do for americans instead of what we can take away from them or do to them.

My first suggestion is to do away with the health insurance companies in the healthcare plan and go to a single payer system where the doctors work for the government and the bills are paid by tax dollars.

This would cut all the profits that the middle men maKe at every level. Other countries have done this and it works.

I have just recently begun to think that maybe we should end the practice of electing trustees to run our schools. These are the idiots who introduce "creationism" and "intelligent design" into the curricula and who refuse to see that educating students to think critically is the real education.
Who would replace the school boards? My first thought is the federal government, though I can see the pitfalls there.
But as I see it, real education reform is the most positive thing we can do for the country.

 

[Bebeslut]

single payer brings death panels in full force with it. Single payer guarantees a diminishing level of healthcare as you grow older. If you were EITHER smart, OR cared about your parents/grandparents, you wouldn't even suggest that disaster waiting to happen!!!

This writer watches too much Fox News. No such thing as death panels.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

It's always so interesting to me, the ways that conservatives think

Interesting that you think I'm a conservative...while I think of myself as not being a socialist, but far from being a conservative, I am, however, an individualist...a libertarian.

 

[mikey2much]

this goes back to the tax rates

The real issue isnt the money.

The real issue is the corruption money buys.

I've known wealthy people who lived modestly and used their millions to fund public, scientific, and charitable endeavors. Money in the right hands does wonders.

I know poor people who won fortunes and used the money for all the usual stuff and toys till the money was kaput, and they were back on welfare.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but the bottom line is that freedom allows them to be stupid with their money. However if they are smart enough to hire a professional to help them manage their money the tax laws of the past would channel how they spent it to recieve the best tax breaks.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Interesting that you think I'm a conservative...while I think of myself as not being a socialist, but far from being a conservative, I am, however, an individualist...a libertarian.

A libertarian... So you're even further to the right than your average conservative. Gotcha.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

UK is single payer, yet UK citizens live on average 2.2 years longer than Americans. Switzerland and Australia are about 70% government payer and they live even longer. Why?

Why? Why he asks. Fast food, sitting around an their duffs watch Dancing with the Stars instead of getting off their fat asses and dancing...that's why? Playing their x-box until they have the strongest thumbs in the universe and bleary red eyes and as ass that fits the chair they sit in...in fact that ass as grown around that chair and has become part of them. Depending on the government to fix everything for them instead of getting their fat asses out and trying to fix it for themselves.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

A libertarian... So you're even further to the right than your average conservative. Gotcha.

Goes to show you what you know...nothing.

 

[mikey2much]

I don't think you know me weel enough

Here's the deal Comrade Mikey (and yeah, you do sound pretty much like a communist, except that though you are all for the "everyone shares the wealth equally" part, I don't think you are much up for the "everybody works equally" part)

You don't get to have both. Sorry, that's just not reality.

While I am a hippy, I have worked all my life. In an effort to avoid supporting a country that wants to jail me for my lifestlye, I have worked for myself and done without insurence and paid vacations. I live very simpley and do not exceed my budget of one thousand a month. I draw only Five hundred and fifty a month from SS so I only have to pull a couple of jobs a month to reach my goals.

My motto and how I have lived my life is this. 'Low expectations leads to easy satisfaction'. While I don't have much, I don't need much to be happy. I just want the rich to leave me alone and not take away what little I need to survive.

 

[mikey2much]

I don't want a doctor that is only in it for the money

I want a quality doctor, who makes enough money to attract the very best.

I answered your question, now please have the courtesy to answer my question. Under the medical care program, passed by Congress, and now being debated by the Supreme Courta doctor can't realistically make enogh money to make being a doctor an attractive proposition. Under the proposed medical care program, where are you going to find enough doctors who are willing to work for perhaps $10 per hour? TIA.

The man who goes in medical school as a way to make money is the guy in my example who will not operate on you until you give him all you can give. I don't think that there should be a profit motive involved in medical decisions.
Does that answer your question?

 

[mikey2much]

You make a very good point

I have just recently begun to think that maybe we should end the practice of electing trustees to run our schools. These are the idiots who introduce "creationism" and "intelligent design" into the curricula and who refuse to see that educating students to think critically is the real education.
Who would replace the school boards? My first thought is the federal government, though I can see the pitfalls there.
But as I see it, real education reform is the most positive thing we can do for the country.

This is what I was talking about when I said that religion would take us back to the middle ages. I agree with you about the problem of who to trust to do the job and at least when you have elected people you have the chance to replace them when they start to go haywire. The problem is that the churches have local potical power in their hands because they have such a large voting block behind them. So in a way the problem isn't the structure of the way we choose these people but rather the apathy of the good people who can't be bothered with the trouble of showing up at the meetings to elect these overseers.

 

[mikey2much]

liberty is the root word of both problems here

Interesting that you think I'm a conservative...while I think of myself as not being a socialist, but far from being a conservative, I am, however, an individualist...a libertarian.

I think that women have walked away from their roles in life because they feel liberated to do so. You feel that you are the only one you have to look out for so you are calling yourself a libertarian. I was very temped by the libertarian viewpoint for a while but in the end I began to see it a being selfish. We are all tied together as americans, and by that I mean everybody within our borders, legal or not, we have to be together as a nation. The libertarian view makes us a group of single people when we need to be a group of people who are looking out for each other because we are one nation.

The fact that that thought will make so many of us angry is a example of how divided the rich has made us. As long as we are trying to get away from the ones that need our support we are aiding our enemies.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Just read an interesting observation by George Washington at Valley Forge. He said that selfless patriots are few and used up quickly, he said that the best citizen soldier cant exist on love of country alone-they must have personal incentives to carry them to the end. (This was in reference to Congress and average Americans fucking the soldiers however they could do it).

 

[mikey2much]

I think this backs up my view

Just read an interesting observation by George Washington at Valley Forge. He said that selfless patriots are few and used up quickly, he said that the best citizen soldier cant exist on love of country alone-they must have personal incentives to carry them to the end. (This was in reference to Congress and average Americans fucking the soldiers however they could do it).

If I am correct he was talking about the lack of support the concress was giving to the army. The citizen soldiers were the men at Vally Forge and he was trying to shame the concress into sending them the supplies they so desperatly needed. But, like the medical issue today, the profits took first place in the reasonings of concress.

National defense and medical needs should be free of the profit motives.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If I am correct he was talking about the lack of support the concress was giving to the army. The citizen soldiers were the men at Vally Forge and he was trying to shame the concress into sending them the supplies they so desperatly needed. But, like the medical issue today, the profits took first place in the reasonings of concress.

National defense and medical needs should be free of the profit motives.

Congress shared your sentiment, and quartermasters/commissaries couldnt supply the army with wagons, blankets, shoes, beef, flour etc at the prices Congress authorized.

 

[R. Richard]

While I am a hippy, I have worked all my life. In an effort to avoid supporting a country that wants to jail me for my lifestlye, I have worked for myself and done without insurence and paid vacations. I live very simpley and do not exceed my budget of one thousand a month. I draw only Five hundred and fifty a month from SS so I only have to pull a couple of jobs a month to reach my goals.

My motto and how I have lived my life is this. 'Low expectations leads to easy satisfaction'. While I don't have much, I don't need much to be happy. I just want the rich to leave me alone and not take away what little I need to survive.

It would appear that your lifetime earnings were quite low, if you get only $550 per month from SS. Thus you paid very little in taxes. If you now work for $450 per month, it's likely that you currently pay very little in taxes. quite possible zero, if you work for cash. Now, it appears that you want me to pay for your medical care, out of the taxes that I pay. Or, it may be that you want a doctor, who spent at least seven years getting to be a doctor to, in effect, pay for your medical care by working for considerably less than what someone with a docotor's skill is valued at, by society. Since you very probably don't pay taxes, what is it that the rich are 'taking away' from you? Is it the medical care that you never paid for?

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I think that women have walked away from their roles in life because they feel liberated to do so. You feel that you are the only one you have to look out for so you are calling yourself a libertarian. I was very temped by the libertarian viewpoint for a while but in the end I began to see it a being selfish. We are all tied together as americans, and by that I mean everybody within our borders, legal or not, we have to be together as a nation. The libertarian view makes us a group of single people when we need to be a group of people who are looking out for each other because we are one nation.

The fact that that thought will make so many of us angry is a example of how divided the rich has made us. As long as we are trying to get away from the ones that need our support we are aiding our enemies.

No...I own the responsibility of not only myself, but that of my family, until such time as they become adults and responsible for themselves.

As for the common defense, I do take exception to the true libertarian view on that...so call me a rational libertarian. As for my neighbor...well if he can't provide for his children, then I will. But as for him, he'll have to fend for himself, just as I do.

 

[mikey2much]

I did the best I could not to support the government

It would appear that your lifetime earnings were quite low, if you get only $550 per month from SS. Thus you paid very little in taxes. If you now work for $450 per month, it's likely that you currently pay very little in taxes. quite possible zero, if you work for cash. Now, it appears that you want me to pay for your medical care, out of the taxes that I pay. Or, it may be that you want a doctor, who spent at least seven years getting to be a doctor to, in effect, pay for your medical care by working for considerably less than what someone with a docotor's skill is valued at, by society. Since you very probably don't pay taxes, what is it that the rich are 'taking away' from you? Is it the medical care that you never paid for?

You have to understand that I have felt like a Jew in nazi Germany ever since Nixon started his war on drugs. However when you work in America you have to pay SS no matter how little you earn, and some times I made enough that I couldn't lie about, so I was forced to pay taxes that I never applied for my tax refund for.

But that is beside the point, more to the point is why you would be so against your fellow Americans having government healthcare. At one time we were the only industial country who did not provide this for their citizens. I think it shows how little regard our government has for us.

But you are correct when you say I haven't paid enough to pay for my insurance. I haven't ever had insurance so I don't miss it. They sent be a medicare card last year and started to subtract one hundred and fifty bucks a month from my check and I appealed it and won so I don't have to pay that anymore. I have never used the card and am not sure I ever will, however if I pass out on the street I am sure that when they take me to the hospital they will be glad I have it.

What would you want to see them do with that money? Build another prison? Drop another million dollar bomb on a mud hut in Pakistan? Maybe fund some more countras to rape a few more nuns? Where would you want to see the money go?