"Bisexuality and the challenge to lesbian politics" *

[Safe_Bet]

"Bisexuality and the challenge to lesbian politics: sex, loyalty, and revolution"
*By Paula C. Rust

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rh...3Qr3&dq=cant+trust+bisexuals&output=html_text




I found this to be a very interesting book. Though a few of her conclusions are slightly biased, due to the authors "iffy" orientation, she does make some very good points and has tried to be evenhanded for the most part, IMO.

What it DOES point out is the huge rift between the lesbian and bisexual communities. That rift is caused by mistrust (partly earned by BOTH sides) and by group politics.

It also reflects a lot of what I see here: Lesbians are mistrustful of bisexual women and bisexual women are angry because they aren't embraced by the lesbian community.

Has anyone else read any of this book (or one similar???). Your thoughts on the subject?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Nope, haven't read it. But it seems to me that almost every women who posts here has come to the same conclusions-- through observation, personal experience, and news gathering-- and says so every time the topic comes up.

The author lost credit with me once she wrote about being in a relationship with a man though she lived as a "lesbian identified" person. It's not a political party, lady... We aren't all shape shifters. It was a good idea, the book, but for the most part why would I read something about my sexuality by a gender traitor?
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/38030836

 

[Safe_Bet]

Nope, haven't read it. But it seems to me that almost every women who posts here has come to the same conclusions-- through observation, personal experience, and news gathering-- and says so every time the topic comes up.

Might the "says so every time the topic comes up" be because the angry bisexuals have driven away the lesbians, who might otherwise disagree, with their bile and malice???? (you being a poster child of such behavior!)

 

[Tennisaurus]

Might the "says so every time the topic comes up" be because the angry bisexuals have driven away the lesbians, who might otherwise disagree, with their bile and malice???? (you being a poster child of such behavior!)

Funny you should put it like that, I don't normally think of bisexuals as being disagreeable, full of "bile and malice"...

...you on the other hand, seem to be doing a fine job of fitting the "bitter, angry and insecure" stereotype most heterosexual men conjure up when they hear they word lesbian.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Might the "says so every time the topic comes up" be because the angry bisexuals have driven away the lesbians, who might otherwise disagree, with their bile and malice???? (you being a poster child of such behavior!)

What part of "every woman" means "bisexual women only" in your head?

YOU are the one that says, over and over and over and over, that Lesbians don't trust bisexuals? And you shout down lesbians who say otherwise, claiming that they are not really lesbians.

Tennisaurus, this conversation is about women for women. It has absolutely nothing to do with heterosexual men. Sorry.

 

[Safe_Bet]

What part of "every woman" means "bisexual women only" in your head?

YOU are the one that says, over and over and over and over, that Lesbians don't trust bisexuals? And you shout down lesbians who say otherwise, claiming that they are not really lesbians.

Tennisaurus, this conversation is about women for women. It has absolutely nothing to do with heterosexual men. Sorry.

Fail to comprehend what you've read much?

Oh, wait... You didn't read the book, did you? Well, let me clue you in: it's me, the lesbians you've successfully driven away and the 400 women who were studied that said that.

BTW, if a woman likes being with a man occassionally they are NOT lesbians, they are bisexuals. You can bitch all you want (and it reflects YOUR own bisexual bias), but it doesn't change the definition of the word.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Drawing on her research with over 400 bisexual and lesbian women...

I have said many times that a woman who likes to go with men once in a while falls on the bisexual spectrum-- in my eyes, if not in hers. And obviously, in yours as well.

The difference of course, is that I don't think it matters much on a forum, and for you it seems to be a holy internet war that you come here to fight.

*shrug*

 

[Safe_Bet]

Drawing on her research with over 400 bisexual and lesbian women...

I have said many times that a woman who likes to go with men once in a while falls on the bisexual spectrum-- in my eyes, if not in hers. And obviously, in yours as well.

The difference of course, is that I don't think it matters much on a forum, and for you it seems to be a holy internet war that you come here to fight.

*shrug*

Maybe it doesn't make much difference to you because YOU are a bisexual. I think if most of the lesbians that used to post here hadn't been harassed away, they would agree with me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Maybe it doesn't make much difference to you because YOU are a bisexual. I think if most of the lesbians that used to post here hadn't been harassed away, they would agree with me.

Sure, they probably would agree with you. I agree with you. When I meet a woman, and there's chemistry going, I am always very careful to make sure she knows that I am bisexual. She can make her own judgement call-- I might feel hurt, and deprived if she goes. But it's absolutely her right.

But-- who does and doesn't have the right to the label isn't the point of this book, is it?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Sure, they probably would agree with you. I agree with you. When I meet a woman, and there's chemistry going, I am always very careful to make sure she knows that I am bisexual. She can make her own judgement call-- I might feel hurt, and deprived if she goes. But it's absolutely her right.

But-- who does and doesn't have the right to the label isn't the point of this book, is it?

Actually, I think they are germaine to not only your comments, but to the books conclusions. Arguing over alternate meaning of a solid, dictionary bound definition is VERY symptomatic of the rift.

 

[PricelessT]

Careful about saying that you agree with her, Stella. She'll take it to mean that you agree with all of what she has stated on this subject, when you have been quite clear that the bisexual label does not fit all women who are somewhat romantically/sexually attracted to men (especially in the case of very minor attraction) or who occassionally have sex with men (as distinguished from true sexual attraction)...and that there isn't just one definition of "lesbian" or "bisexual."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Actually, I think they are germaine to not only your comments, but to the books conclusions. Arguing over alternate meaning of a solid, dictionary bound definition is VERY symptomatic of the rift.

I know, labels are very important to all of us-- you want it to be a solid dictionary definition.

But people don't live in dictionaries. They live in their bodies and minds, which are ruled by many conflicting inputs and needs...

Shit happens.

 

[boredVAwife]

Funny thing is happening to me as I go headlong into the world of being bisexual. People are looking at me differently and it's not all good. In this forum a lesbian and a bi woman seems to be every man's fantasy but I am finding out that it is far from the case irl. A little over a year ago I started acknowledging that I had been with a couple of women over the last few years and wanted a relationship with one. Lost my marriage and I really didn't see that coming as a result but will own my decisions. I am finding that some people have actually started to treat me differently over my sexuality. I work from home but we have office days once or twice a month and some people that I have known for years are looking at me differently. Close friends have told me point blank that they couldn't care less whom I chose to date but some fringe "friends" and people I know now whisper and so on. I now feel a little alienated at times and am adjusting to that. My biggest challenge is to be me and be the person that makes me happy and not allow societies issues to make me bitter. It is a challenge and one bigger than I anticipated. One of the things I like most about Lit is learning about the things women that have lived and seen lots more than me, have to say.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Careful about saying that you agree with her, Stella. She'll take it to mean that you agree with all of what she has stated on this subject, when you have been quite clear that the bisexual label does not fit all women who are somewhat romantically/sexually attracted to men (especially in the case of very minor attraction) or who occassionally have sex with men (as distinguished from true sexual attraction)...and that there isn't just one definition of "lesbian" or "bisexual."

I know, labels are very important to all of us-- you want it to be a solid dictionary definition.

But people don't live in dictionaries. They live in their bodies and minds, which are ruled by many conflicting inputs and needs...

Shit happens.

It's not a matter of what I "want". The definitions are what they clearly are.

They also don't get to be redefined by bisexuals, lesbian wannabes or "occassional man fuckers".

And yeah, if I seem militant about the label, it's because it's one of the few things we can exclusively claim and because I dislike having it "diluted" or "redefined" by people who wish to fly a false flag to promote their own agenda or desires.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Funny thing is happening to me as I go headlong into the world of being bisexual. People are looking at me differently and it's not all good. In this forum a lesbian and a bi woman seems to be every man's fantasy but I am finding out that it is far from the case irl. A little over a year ago I started acknowledging that I had been with a couple of women over the last few years and wanted a relationship with one. Lost my marriage and I really didn't see that coming as a result but will own my decisions. I am finding that some people have actually started to treat me differently over my sexuality. I work from home but we have office days once or twice a month and some people that I have known for years are looking at me differently. Close friends have told me point blank that they couldn't care less whom I chose to date but some fringe "friends" and people I know now whisper and so on. I now feel a little alienated at times and am adjusting to that. My biggest challenge is to be me and be the person that makes me happy and not allow societies issues to make me bitter. It is a challenge and one bigger than I anticipated. One of the things I like most about Lit is learning about the things women that have lived and seen lots more than me, have to say.

Yup! Now try to imagine what it's like to have been queer and out since my Tweens.

Not sayin that this applies to you necessarily, but I can also see the "attraction" of bi females wanting to identify as lesbian because the perception & protection of the community is more homginous and cohesive.

That's one of the reasons why I fight so hard to keep from seeing it "commandeered" by people who aren't. (and I'm not saying that is necessarily right of me to think that way either - which is why I read books like this).

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yup! Now try to imagine what it's like to have been queer and out since my Tweens.

Not sayin that this applies to you necessarily, but I can also see the "attraction" of bi females wanting to identify as lesbian because the perception & protection of the community is more homginous and cohesive.

That's one of the reasons why I fight so hard to keep from seeing it "commandeered" by people who aren't. (and I'm not saying that is necessarily right of me to think that way either - which is why I read books like this).

Because god forbid some woman finds a moment of belonging that she doesn't deserve, gotcha. Especially on a FORUM.

You didn't have to read a book, Amy, you could simply read the words of the real women who post on this forum, and trust that they are telling their own truth.

Anyone here out to lie to a lesbian?

Does anyone wants to trick a lesbian into kissing lips that have touched a man's?

What woman wants to make some horrible mistake of terminology and be lambasted -- forever and ever -- by a REAL lesbian?

Speak up, ladies!

 

[PricelessT]

It's not a matter of what I "want". The definitions are what they clearly are.

Yes, they are. And in a debate with you from last year, I provided reliable sources showing different definitions -- that "lesbian" and "bisexual" (especially "bisexual") are not defined consistently among the LGBT community, heterosexuals and researchers. But you continue to disregard or ignore that, sticking to a dictionary definition, when it defines homosexuality more so by who a person has sex with and when dictionaries are not the most reliable sources on the topic of sexual orientation.

Yes, it is about what you want. You have demonstrated that time and time again, as recently as this thread, with your constant need to take away anyone's right to identify how they like and their personal definitions. You are the one always popping up to tell someone they are bisexual and not gay or lesbian, even while saying you don't object to a person's right to identify how they like. But I'll make clear again that when a woman with very minor romantic/sexual attraction to men or who occassionally has sex with men identifies as lesbian, it's not because she wishes to "fly a false flag to promote [her] own agenda or desires." It's because she cannot be romantically/sexually happy with men and therefore would rather not be with a man romantically/sexually. If a woman is 99.9% gay, for example, it's pretty silly for her to identify as bisexual. To her and women like her, the bisexual label is false advertisement because saying "I'm bisexual" implies that they are interested in both sexes when they truly aren't.

And as I've stated before, some researchers believe that most people have the ability to find both sexes sexually attractive, but that most people define their sexual orientation by what they are predominantly sexually attracted to. Thus, if these researchers are right, this means that most people who identify as heterosexual or homosexual fit into your definition of "bisexual." The thing is...it's not their definition of bisexual. Clearly. There's a reason that some people (researchers included) are using words like "mostly straight, "mostly gay" or terms like "heteroflexible" and "homoflexible" to describe the previous two. Besides that, studies have shown that women are a lot more fluid in their sexuality than men (which could be due to genetics, society being more accepting of women being intimate with each other than they are of men being intimate with each other, or both).

 

[Safe_Bet]

Because god forbid some woman finds a moment of belonging that she doesn't deserve, gotcha. Especially on a FORUM.

You didn't have to read a book, Amy, you could simply read the words of the real women who post on this forum, and trust that they are telling their own truth.

Anyone here out to lie to a lesbian?

Does anyone wants to trick a lesbian into kissing lips that have touched a man's?

What woman wants to make some horrible mistake of terminology and be lambasted -- forever and ever -- by a REAL lesbian?

Speak up, ladies!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Im not going to be arsed to find them, but there have been several instances of people doing EXACTLY that! Then when you add it the "occassionally likes dick lesbians" you have a numerous group of people trying to redefine what is "real".

Being one of them, I don't imagine you find that to be offensive, but it is.

 

[Stella_Omega]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Im not going to be arsed to find them, but there have been several instances of people doing EXACTLY that! Then when you add it the "occassionally likes dick lesbians" you have a numerous group of people trying to redefine what is "real".

Being one of them, I don't imagine you find that to be offensive, but it is.

Which one of "them" are you lumping me into?

 

[AmberMoore]

This is a strange discussion. It reads like you two are saying pretty much the same thing but I guess you're not...

I call myself bisexual, I make sure any possible long term sexual partners are aware of the fact that I still kind of find some men attractive. At the same time I haven't been with a man in like six years and I honestly don't think I ever will again. I have six years of dating women exclusively but I still label myself as being Bisexual because that's the only honest way I know how to since I can still look at a guy and admire the shape of his ass.

I had a girlfriend brake up with me a few years ago because she couldn't get over that particular label. That's fine, I miss her but I understand where she's coming from. Some gold star lesbians can't live with that. It hurts when a woman leaves you it hurts even more when you see her with a man a few days later. That's a hurt that eats at you. It's a hurt that so many of us have felt that we try to protect ourselves from that hurt any way possible. That can create a schism in the community.

I haven't read the book, honestly I probably won't but this isn't really a new thing.

 

[BiBunny]

Because god forbid some woman finds a moment of belonging that she doesn't deserve, gotcha. Especially on a FORUM.

You didn't have to read a book, Amy, you could simply read the words of the real women who post on this forum, and trust that they are telling their own truth.

Anyone here out to lie to a lesbian?

Does anyone wants to trick a lesbian into kissing lips that have touched a man's?

What woman wants to make some horrible mistake of terminology and be lambasted -- forever and ever -- by a REAL lesbian?

Speak up, ladies!

Lesbians need not worry about that with me, given that I'm straight-up about being bi.

I also don't mind if a lesbian doesn't want to be with me. That's fine. Her choice.

As I've said before, I dislike having everybody shoved under my umbrella. Yes, by the strict dictionary definition of the word, if a person fucks men and women, that person is bisexual. But what I'm talking about is connotation.

When a woman says she's a lesbian, we assume that not only does she want to have sex with women but that she also, at some point in her life, will want to be in relationships with women. If a man says he's a gay man, we assume that he wants to have sex with men and at some point will want to be in relationships with men. Same thing for hetero people. We assume that they want to have sex with members of the opposite sex, and that at some point, they'll want to be in relationships with members of the opposite sex.

But...you can't make that assumption with "bisexual" if we're sticking everybody who plays around with both sexes under the same umbrella.

How many men do we see, even in this forum, who say that they want to suck cock but "aren't attracted to men"? They want to play around with other men, but they don't want to pursue relationships with a man.

How many women do we see who are glad to use other women for sex while hubby watches, but would never want to date other women?

These people get lumped into the same category as people like me. I'm not necessarily equally attracted to both men and women, but I'm equally likely to get into a relationship with either if I happen to like the person.

I'm not saying that that makes me more enlightened than the man who sucks cock but isn't attracted to men or the woman who gets off on having her pussy eaten by another woman while her man watches but isn't actually really attracted to women. But it does make me and others like me different from them, and I think that it makes us different enough from them that it merits a different category or label.

What I would like is a comparable term to "lesbian" and "gay man" and "straight/hetero person" that carries the same connotations, that this person is open to sex AND relationships with both men and women. If we don't use the word "bisexual" to mean that, that's fine. Make up a new label. I'm not terribly attached to this one. I just don't like having to run around and explain "Yes, I'm a bisexual woman, and to me, that means I will fuck and be in relationships with either men or women or both if everybody's on board with it" just because the word "bi" means so many different things to so many different people.

If that doesn't make sense, I'll try to explain it better. It's just something that's been on my mind for awhile now.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And I, too, am bisexual. There have been times in my life when I've been more bisexual than I am now, but I will always be attracted to a man once in a while.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Lesbians need not worry about that with me, given that I'm straight-up about being bi.

I also don't mind if a lesbian doesn't want to be with me. That's fine. Her choice.

As I've said before, I dislike having everybody shoved under my umbrella. Yes, by the strict dictionary definition of the word, if a person fucks men and women, that person is bisexual. But what I'm talking about is connotation.

When a woman says she's a lesbian, we assume that not only does she want to have sex with women but that she also, at some point in her life, will want to be in relationships with women. If a man says he's a gay man, we assume that he wants to have sex with men and at some point will want to be in relationships with men. Same thing for hetero people. We assume that they want to have sex with members of the opposite sex, and that at some point, they'll want to be in relationships with members of the opposite sex.

But...you can't make that assumption with "bisexual" if we're sticking everybody who plays around with both sexes under the same umbrella.

How many men do we see, even in this forum, who say that they want to suck cock but "aren't attracted to men"? They want to play around with other men, but they don't want to pursue relationships with a man.

How many women do we see who are glad to use other women for sex while hubby watches, but would never want to date other women?

These people get lumped into the same category as people like me. I'm not necessarily equally attracted to both men and women, but I'm equally likely to get into a relationship with either if I happen to like the person.

I'm not saying that that makes me more enlightened than the man who sucks cock but isn't attracted to men or the woman who gets off on having her pussy eaten by another woman while her man watches but isn't actually really attracted to women. But it does make me and others like me different from them, and I think that it makes us different enough from them that it merits a different category or label.

What I would like is a comparable term to "lesbian" and "gay man" and "straight/hetero person" that carries the same connotations, that this person is open to sex AND relationships with both men and women. If we don't use the word "bisexual" to mean that, that's fine. Make up a new label. I'm not terribly attached to this one. I just don't like having to run around and explain "Yes, I'm a bisexual woman, and to me, that means I will fuck and be in relationships with either men or women or both if everybody's on board with it" just because the word "bi" means so many different things to so many different people.

If that doesn't make sense, I'll try to explain it better. It's just something that's been on my mind for awhile now.

That actually makes PERFECT sense! Thank you for explaining you're thinking, BTW.

Now let me ask you a question: If you were in a long term, loving relationship with a woman, would you still be interested in occassionally having sex with some dude or would you at least still be "admiring" men in a sexual way even if you didn't do anything with them?

The reason I ask is because if the answer would be "No, I'm in a committed relationship with my woman and I'm not even slightly interested in ANYONE else", I would then personally consider you to be a lesbian at that point.


P.S. Your orientation touched the "wannabes" last so y'all have to keep them!

 

[Safe_Bet]

Which one of "them" are you lumping me into?

I actually didn't mean to include you in either of those two groups. I misspoke and I apologize.

I MEANT you are trying to or at least tacitly support those who are trying to redefine the "label".

 

[boredVAwife]

I admire anyone that holds true to their convictions regardless of what it is. A woman that dates only women need not have to explain herself to men that get their pride wounded when they're rejected just as a gay man needn't be made to feel less "manly". I doubt I could ever be a lesbian simply because even with all their hang ups I still find (some) men utterly adorable. Given the choice to spend an evening walking on the beach and sitting around a fire beside the shore I'd more than likely chose a woman but ya never know. Point is I don't feel put down by a woman that would not be with me because I will date a man. That is her choice and I respect that. Conversly I won't be offended when if a guy asks me out and I say no and get called a dyke in return. I am determined to find that person that makes me happy and if it's a man, woman or just my and my boston terrier than so be it. *hugs to both Stella and SafeBet*