Please clarify the term : topping of the bottom

[kimuk]

Please clarify the term : topping from the bottom

Because I fear I try to do it often

 

[YourCaptor]

Because I fear I try to do it often

Topping of the bottom, don't sound too bad.

Topping from the bottom, wtf.

You when the bottom is all like, whip me here, and this hard, and then do that.

I think...

 

[kimuk]

Woooops!

Should say from!

Yep looks like I'm guilty then. So if I sugest something? Ask for more or less? No matter how politely. If I plant a seed of what I need.

Am I doing this?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I generally think of topping from the bottom as manipulation. Trying to wheedle things to go your way, while still maintaining that you're being submissive.

It can be both conscious and unconscious.

 

[kimuk]

I generally think of topping from the bottom as manipulation. Trying to wheedle things to go your way, while still maintaining that you're being submissive.

It can be both conscious and unconscious.

Manipulation sounds bad and undesirable. But I know I do it. I try to steer things in the direction I want them to go.

I find it hard to ask directly. Especailly if I need to move up a gear. It seems disrespectful. So I drop hints. I initiate a convesation. I put it in an story. I discuss it as part of what someone else said to me.

Does that count?

 

[seela]

Does that count?

Does it matter if some people might consider what you do topping from the bottom, if it works for your relationship and your PYL doesn't mind you initiating things this way?

 

[CutieMouse]

Manipulation sounds bad and undesirable. But I know I do it. I try to steer things in the direction I want them to go.

I find it hard to ask directly. Especailly if I need to move up a gear. It seems disrespectful. So I drop hints. I initiate a convesation. I put it in an story. I discuss it as part of what someone else said to me.

Does that count?

Wait... So what you're really saying here, is that being manipulative/passive aggressive (Toppibg from the bottom) somehow feels MORE respectful than simply saying "I love X; I'm good if you want more/harder/deeper/rougher."

??

Respectful communication of wants/desires/needs is never disrespectful (in my book). Passive aggressive/manipulative behavior is the best way to NOT get what I'm looking for (even if he wants it, too).

 

[CookingDom]

I've always hated this term as it's thrown around all too easily when what the sub is actually doing is simply communicating.

Just because a sub is trying to tell his/her Dom what she would like, what works for her what she needs, doesn't mean she is trying to control him or take the lead whilst being sub. There are occasions when either the sub is struggling to get their point across or be understood, or the Dom simply isn't listening or open to taking advice or criticism causing the sub to push harder. I've been guilty of this, especially when I first started out and I, foolishly, refused to let the sub dictate what I was doing when all she was doing was tell me what she wanted, what did and didn't work and what she liked etc.

I think if you are both working towards a common goal then it doesn't really matter who is saying what. If the meaning behind it is the 'bottom' trying to 'top' then in my experience that is usually someone who is really a top, or even a switch and has just not realised it yet. I think it's more common when it's a Dom realising he/she is a sub really and I guess this can be similar to a homophobe denying then accepting he is gay for example.

Sometimes you find someone you really like and you try to fit into the role of what they want because you want to be with them so much, the bottom line is if it doesn't work it doesn't work, just move on and chalk it to experience. You may actually make good friend out of it, if you are both just honest about who you really are.

If you can't communicate with your Dom through fear of topping from the bottom, then you haven't built the right level and mutual respect in communication.

 

[kimuk]

Wait... So what you're really saying here, is that being manipulative/passive aggressive (Toppibg from the bottom) somehow feels MORE respectful than simply saying "I love X; I'm good if you want more/harder/deeper/rougher."

??

Respectful communication of wants/desires/needs is never disrespectful (in my book). Passive aggressive/manipulative behavior is the best way to NOT get what I'm looking for (even if he wants it, too).

How come you always manager to make me feell liike total shit!
Ok so I asked a question because I find it Hard to ask out right.
I analysed what I was doing and thought it was whats referred to as topping form the bottom.
It was a question.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Piffle. All this worry from Dommmsss about their precious power being usurped!

If you have problems bringing up what you want-- tell him that problem. If starting a conversation works, that's awesome. If writing a story works, that's awesome too. Do those things work for you? Because I hate to point this out, but the testosterone-driven half of the population is rather well-known for abtruseness.

It's kind of disrespectful, when you think about it, to expect him to read your mind, or not expect him to read your mind but resent him for not being able to do so.

 

[CookingDom]

It's kind of disrespectful, when you think about it, to expect him to read your mind, or not expect him to read your mind but resent him for not being able to do so.

I agree completely, a Dom can't read a subs' mind, but as well as a sub feeling they are topping from the bottom, sometimes the sub can accused the Dom of the same simply because he asks from the top

 

[kimuk]

I've always hated this term as it's thrown around all too easily when what the sub is actually doing is simply communicating.

Just because a sub is trying to tell his/her Dom what she would like, what works for her what she needs, doesn't mean she is trying to control him or take the lead whilst being sub. There are occasions when either the sub is struggling to get their point across or be understood, or the Dom simply isn't listening or open to taking advice or criticism causing the sub to push harder. I've been guilty of this, especially when I first started out and I, foolishly, refused to let the sub dictate what I was doing when all she was doing was tell me what she wanted, what did and didn't work and what she liked etc.

I think if you are both working towards a common goal then it doesn't really matter who is saying what. If the meaning behind it is the 'bottom' trying to 'top' then in my experience that is usually someone who is really a top, or even a switch and has just not realised it yet. I think it's more common when it's a Dom realising he/she is a sub really and I guess this can be similar to a homophobe denying then accepting he is gay for example.

Sometimes you find someone you really like and you try to fit into the role of what they want because you want to be with them so much, the bottom line is if it doesn't work it doesn't work, just move on and chalk it to experience. You may actually make good friend out of it, if you are both just honest about who you really are.

If you can't communicate with your Dom through fear of topping from the bottom, then you haven't built the right level and mutual respect in communication.

Well I supose I considered it different ways of communicating my needs. Because i dont want to offend upset or critisize him.
Our relationship is open. He dosent have an issue with it. He's very happy with my methods of asking for or introducing new things.
It's obviously acceptable to some and not others?

 

[kimuk]

Piffle. All this worry from Dommmsss about their precious power being usurped!

If you have problems bringing up what you want-- tell him that problem. If starting a conversation works, that's awesome. If writing a story works, that's awesome too. Do those things work for you? Because I hate to point this out, but the testosterone-driven half of the population is rather well-known for abtruseness.

It's kind of disrespectful, when you think about it, to expect him to read your mind, or not expect him to read your mind but resent him for not being able to do so.

Stella i dont expect him to read my mind. I thought i was just using covert methods to relay my needs which would'nt touch a Domly nerve. I thought I was being helpful if a little overt about needs wants desires.

Now I'm disrespectful and Manipulative.

Goes and puts her head in the gas oven lol lol lol

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella i dont expect him to read my mind. I thought i was just using covert methods to relay my needs which would'nt touch a Domly nerve. I thought I was being helpful if a little overt about needs wants desires.

Now I'm disrespectful and Manipulative.

Goes and puts her head in the gas oven lol lol lol

Since you say you aren't doing the things I mentioned, you probably don't need to stick your head in the oven. But, that would be for you to decide. Don't rely on my judgement!

He's very happy with my methods of asking for or introducing new things.

In that case, you're doing it perfectly!

 

[~Elizabeth~]

IMHO, Kimuk, I would suggest bringing this up to your Master and see what his views on topping from the bottom would be, if you haven't. He may not feel that you are, but it's best for the both of you to discuss it and know for sure rather than to keep taking a guess.

I sincerely hope you find the answers you seek and what works best for you and your Master.

 

[eastern sun]

In my opinion, a submissive can communicate whatever s/he needs to communicate in whatever fashion s/he is comfortable using. And should.

However, since the operative definition of submissive is "ready to conform to the authority or will of others," if the dominant's will runs contrary to the submissive's and the submissive then expresses disappointment, frustration, or otherwise hints at the inadequacy of the dominant party's ability to satisfy them, they are then "topping from the bottom" rather than "submitting."

And in the middle of a scene, just telling a dominant where and how to hit might be frustrating the will of the dominant who might be interested in doing something else in a different way.

The key to avoid "topping from the bottom" and its negative connotations is simply to state as directly as you can whatever you need to say, and then submit to the dominant's will even if it is contrary to your desires.

That can suck. And that may be a reason to make changes in the relationship, either in the nature of the power exchange or in who you're willing to submit to.

 

[JMohegan]

Because I fear I try to do it often

Don't worry about it, unless he complains.

If he succumbs, then it's bottoming from the top, and his acquiescence confirms both his choice and complicity in the matter.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Well I supose I considered it different ways of communicating my needs. Because i dont want to offend upset or critisize him.
Our relationship is open. He dosent have an issue with it. He's very happy with my methods of asking for or introducing new things.
It's obviously acceptable to some and not others?

Stella i dont expect him to read my mind. I thought i was just using covert methods to relay my needs which would'nt touch a Domly nerve. I thought I was being helpful if a little overt about needs wants desires.

Now I'm disrespectful and Manipulative.

Goes and puts her head in the gas oven lol lol lol

Now you're just being a bit sensitive.

You asked for people's definitions. They gave them. They also said that if what you're doing is working for you guys, then go for it.

Personally, I'd disagree with your 'being covert to not strike a nerve' bit though. Being covert is being sneaky, even if the intentions are good. If you don't want to hurt his feelings, or if you feel nervous or shy about it, then you need to find a better way to have the conversations you need to have, be it talking, texting, emailing, IMing, journaling.

So on that note, I'd say no, the things you listed before, like writing a story etc, are not topping from the bottom. But as es said, if you do put your point across, and then get pissy you don't get it, then that is.

 

[eastern sun]

Don't worry about it, unless he complains.

If he succumbs, then it's bottoming from the top, and his acquiescence confirms both his choice and complicity in the matter.

And a dominant is no less dominant when he bottoms from the top, by the way. That is one of my husband's favorite positions.

 

[StrayKat]

I thought i was just using covert methods to relay my needs which would'nt touch a Domly nerve.

Why do you feel using open and honest direct expression would touch his "Domly nerve"? Is his Ego so fragile he wouldnt bear admitting you might want/like/dislike something besides what he thinks you should? Do *you* feel it is not appropriate to initiate open conversation about your needs for whatever reason?
Do you expect him to know all your needs better than yourself and then you feel like he failed you in some way?

Why exactly would, in your opinion, his Domly nerve suffer if you would use more than subtle hints? And that said, do you realize most men are completely clueless when it comes to subtle hints, they dont get them, all they might feel is that you are displeased and dont want to communicate for some reason what makes them frustrated.
Doms are just guys you know, their simple minds all work the same

 

[Kojote]

I generally think of topping from the bottom as manipulation. Trying to wheedle things to go your way, while still maintaining that you're being submissive.

It can be both conscious and unconscious.

I agree to this as the way I understand the term and my following thoughts will be based on it.

So I’m situated somewhere in the Top/Dom corner even outside of ‘the bedroom’.
Regarding this topic and my personal view I have to take open, honest communication as given whenever necessary. It wouldn’t work any other way with me.
But apart of this life, tends to be a game. And it has been even before I finally accepted that my favorite dynamics are part of the whole bdsm thingy.

And I have to say that I really like my partners to 1. put up a fight and 2. try to top from the bottom.
I always liked the girls others called bitches most. I like manipulative behavior and I know that I’m a freak.
I don’t particularly like being manipulated myself. So I learned to avoid that by detecting it. But when she is good it develops into some kind of mind chess game. And I really love that.
In a way it’s like the mental equivalent to the physical struggle. After a short while she knows that I know and the tries to be more subtle. I like the challenge.

Plus the whole thing is part of what I consider ‘female’. So it’s something I actively search in women.
Does that make any sense to anybody?

I know that it is unusual. But it’s the way things work for me…
So @ kimuk
If it were me you wouldn’t have to fear. But then again if it were me we would have had a talk about it not later than when you started to worry about that.
(And I perfectly know how absurd it may sound to talk open about things that are by definition intended not to be noticed. But in my opinion the open discussion of important issues goes first. And as I said: I already noticed anyway…)
Maybe you should just ask him.

 

[CutieMouse]

Stella i dont expect him to read my mind. I thought i was just using covert methods to relay my needs which would'nt touch a Domly nerve. I thought I was being helpful if a little overt about needs wants.

I appreciate the discomfort of walking in the front door; however, in blaming a concern for "touching a Domly nerve" (as the reason for being covert/hinting/etc) it implies that direct/clear/forthright communication is *not* submissive.

Somewhere along the line, it became popular to associate meek, simpering, passive aggressive "I'll just plant the seed instead of asking for what I want" behavior with submission; whereas I've seen the idea of clear, blunt (when necessary), open communication increasingly viewed as "unsubmissive". (At Lit & Fet... It's become a bit of a pet peeve; can y'all tell? )

Stating wants & needs is neither submissive, nor dominant; it is simply stating wants and needs. If the people involved don't consider their communication style to be an issue (as it appears with the OP), then who cares what other people think?

 

[StrayKat]

And I have to say that I really like my partners to 1. put up a fight and 2. try to top from the bottom.
..........
Plus the whole thing is part of what I consider ‘female’. So it’s something I actively search in women.
Does that make any sense to anybody?

It is not female exclusive. I know guys who can act just the same without losing any "charm". Personally I love it as well, on both sides, its playful and its fun.

But, when it crosses the whatever line we put in place for whatever reason, it is time for some serious talk and then I dont give nor accept anything less than direct brutal honesty.
Knowing when its appropriate to play the games and when to get serious is one of the better traits in my opinion.

 

[JMohegan]

And a dominant is no less dominant when he bottoms from the top, by the way.

And even if it did - so what?

"Dominant" is a type of sexual wiring, like "heterosexual."

It's not a character trait, like "honest" or "noble" or "strong."

 

[Stella_Omega]

And even if it did - so what?

"Dominant" is a type of sexual wiring, like "heterosexual."

It's not a character trait, like "honest" or "noble" or "strong."

"Bossy" is not a character trait?