Question about referring to characters

[lovecraft68]

I am writing the first chapter of a new series and as I was working on it last night ran into a problem. In the middle of the chapter I start using different names for the characters.

It would probably be easier if I explained a little. The scene starts in an office setting with two Characters, Mark/Justine.

Now they go through this boring as meeting then when they are alone start discussing other business. The two are part of a secret society in which they all take the names of mythological or historical figures, or something that is indicative of their personalities so to make it easy a nickname/codename.

As the chapter progresses they begin referring to each other by these names. That's all well in good for dialogue, however as for narrative do I keep it at

"Justine said" or Mark watched as "Justine"

Or does it now become "Scarlett" said or Orion watched as Scarlett?

I hope I'm phrasing this question properly, but what I'm getting at is do I remain consistent in the narrative as their first names or switch off?

Also I am writing third person, but doing it from "Justine" as in Justine looked around the room etc...

any advise would be helpful.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Good question!

Since you are writing from Justine's POV, even though in third person, your choice will make a difference to Justine's character. If she's heavily invested in the secret identity game, she might switch to that alternate thought process very easily. Or, she might switch back and forth, or be unshakeably aware of the real people behind the masks.

She might always think of herself as Justine, and notice that flashes of Mark show through Orion's persona.

There are all kinds of ways to solve the problem!

 

[PennLady]

You may not need to do anything special, provided the context is clear. I'm trying to think of an example of this, and the closest I can come is the original Bourne novels by Robert Ludlum. There are times when the main character is Jason Bourne and times when he is David Webb, and it's clear which is which and there are no italics or quotes to set the names off.

I would think it depends on how much they "become" those other names, if you will.

Will they have these names in certain situations? Or just when they're alone? I think there's a lot you could do with setting and such to let the reader know when they've "switched."

Again, I have to go to the Bourne novels -- wish I could think of something else -- but when he's a badass covert spy, he's Bourne. When (in the books, remember) he's with his family and such, he's Webb. This analogy isn't great, I realize, b/c Jason Bourne is almost a split personality, he's another persona that Webb adopted and now has to live with, so it's more than what you're talking about.

 

[lovecraft68]

You may not need to do anything special, provided the context is clear. I'm trying to think of an example of this, and the closest I can come is the original Bourne novels by Robert Ludlum. There are times when the main character is Jason Bourne and times when he is David Webb, and it's clear which is which and there are no italics or quotes to set the names off.

I would think it depends on how much they "become" those other names, if you will.

Will they have these names in certain situations? Or just when they're alone? I think there's a lot you could do with setting and such to let the reader know when they've "switched."

Again, I have to go to the Bourne novels -- wish I could think of something else -- but when he's a badass covert spy, he's Bourne. When (in the books, remember) he's with his family and such, he's Webb. This analogy isn't great, I realize, b/c Jason Bourne is almost a split personality, he's another persona that Webb adopted and now has to live with, so it's more than what you're talking about.

Well the scene is going to go from mild to wild. A boardroom meeting to these to dominants punishing a member of the group that has broken one of the rules.

I am trying to throw a "switch" so to speak so maybe I should go all out and have the action described by the other names. as the persona of Justine especially becomes very different.

 

[lovecraft68]

Good question!

Since you are writing from Justine's POV, even though in third person, your choice will make a difference to Justine's character. If she's heavily invested in the secret identity game, she might switch to that alternate thought process very easily. Or, she might switch back and forth, or be unshakeably aware of the real people behind the masks.

She might always think of herself as Justine, and notice that flashes of Mark show through Orion's persona.

There are all kinds of ways to solve the problem!

So what your saying is there would not be a wrong way. I think that was mainly what I was looking for. I'm not a big with grammar, or "professional" writing style and I wanted to make sure I was not breaking some type of rule and royally screwing up.

 

[3113]

Point of View and Where they are

"Justine said" or Mark watched as "Justine"

Or does it now become "Scarlett" said or Orion watched as Scarlett?

Sticky. First thing that comes to mind is "Justine/Scarlett said." Awkward, but it gets the point across pretty fast--and it's the only kinda-sorta "professional grammar" way to do it--at least the only one that comes to mind.

I think what's important here, as Stella points out, is to maintain point of view and how they think of themselves and each other. For example, I'm 3113 to you, but I don't think of myself by that name. So the question becomes when and where do they think of *themselves* by those names? If they don't think of themselves by those names, or if they only do so when in the secret club, then if we're in Justine's p.o.v. we might have "Justine looked at Orion" and if we're in Mark's p.o.v. we might have "Mark looked at Scarlett," but we wouldn't have "Scarlett felt Orion looking at her" until they're in the secret club where Justine thinks of herself as Scarlett.

Even if they do think of themselves as "Scarlett" and Orion" most of the time, I'd keep it as "Justine said" and "Mark said" until and unless they're alone and addressing each other by their code names: "Mark turned to Justine, 'I missed you Scarlett,' he said. 'And I missed you, Orion, but we shouldn't be using those name here,' she said...." or "Mark knew he had to call her Justine, but to his mind, she was Scarlett...."

If you introduce the personas before using them, and make them use them only under certain circumstances, it'll help keep the names clear to the reader...I think.

And from the point on, you can use the code names.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So what your saying is there would not be a wrong way. I think that was mainly what I was looking for. I'm not a big with grammar, or "professional" writing style and I wanted to make sure I was not breaking some type of rule and royally screwing up.

Well, your question is about storytelling, not grammar or spelling. There are a few rules to storytelling, but you might think of them more as Guidelines...

 

[lovecraft68]

Sticky. First thing that comes to mind is "Justine/Scarlett said." Awkward, but it gets the point across pretty fast--and it's the only kinda-sorta "professional grammar" way to do it--at least the only one that comes to mind.

I think what's important here, as Stella points out, is to maintain point of view and how they think of themselves and each other. For example, I'm 3113 to you, but I don't think of myself by that name. So the question becomes when and where do they think of *themselves* by those names? If they don't think of themselves by those names, or if they only do so when in the secret club, then if we're in Justine's p.o.v. we might have "Justine looked at Orion" and if we're in Mark's p.o.v. we might have "Mark looked at Scarlett," but we wouldn't have "Scarlett felt Orion looking at her" until they're in the secret club where Justine thinks of herself as Scarlett.

Even if they do think of themselves as "Scarlett" and Orion" most of the time, I'd keep it as "Justine said" and "Mark said" until and unless they're alone and addressing each other by their code names: "Mark turned to Justine, 'I missed you Scarlett,' he said. 'And I missed you, Orion, but we shouldn't be using those name here,' she said...." or "Mark knew he had to call her Justine, but to his mind, she was Scarlett...."

If you introduce the personas before using them, and make them use them only under certain circumstances, it'll help keep the names clear to the reader...I think.

And from the point on, you can use the code names.

Thanks for the reply. What you're mentioning is what I was initially going to go with. They would switch to the other names in their dialogue, but for "action" purposes it would still be "As Mark spoke he..."

However there is a bit of a part two here. In the next chapter all 12 members will be together for a meeting. During the meetings they are only allowed to refer to each other by their names, which I feel I could get away with the entire thing being Scarlett said/did because it will be established early that is the rule there.

This opening sequence has them starting out in public then ending up alone which is where I became confused.

BTW I don't think of you as 3113. I think of you as the person with all the pin up girl av's

 

[lovecraft68]

Well, your question is about storytelling, not grammar or spelling. There are a few rules to storytelling, but you might think of them more as Guidelines...

I understand, but also don;t want to get caught up in the "I'm the damn author I created this mess and can do anything I want" mentality either.

I want the story to flow and be easy to follow for the reader. So I guess "transition" is what I am concerned with.

 

[Feotakahari]

Oops, double post.

 

[Feotakahari]

^^ It sounds like something that might be worth using an aside for, along the lines of "Orion said--he was Orion now; he would not be Mark again until the morning."

(I feel disappointed that I can't answer this question better, since messing with personal nouns and pronouns is THE hallmark of my work. Maybe I should just use an example from the story I'm currently writing: a character who thinks of himself as "Julian" and "he" wakes one day to find himself addressed as "Julienne" and "she." He spends most of the story either confused, or forced into his actions, so the narration continues to refer to him as Julian even while he's utilizing feminine sexuality--when "he" fully settles into "she" is when she finally does something she didn't need to do.)

 

[lovecraft68]

^^ It sounds like something that might be worth using an aside for, along the lines of "Orion said--he was Orion now; he would not be Mark again until the morning."

(I feel disappointed that I can't answer this question better, since messing with personal nouns and pronouns is THE hallmark of my work. Maybe I should just use an example from the story I'm currently writing: a character who thinks of himself as "Julian" and "he" wakes one day to find himself addressed as "Julienne" and "she." He spends most of the story either confused, or forced into his actions, so the narration continues to refer to him as Julian even while he's utilizing feminine sexuality--when "he" fully settles into "she" is when she finally does something she didn't need to do.)

That's actually a very helpful line. "For the rest of the evening she would be The Lady Scarlet."

I may use that idea. Thank you.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

This is a good question and an interesting discussion. I faced a similar issue once in a story where the characters all knew each other by their real names, but also had stage names. I used their real names in the dialogue tags, but the stage names when they addressed one another on the set. I don't think there is any right or wrong answer; its a matter of what works best for your readers.

On another note, a scene with twelve characters? Are they all going to have speaking parts? That's he part I would worry about.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is a good question and an interesting discussion. I faced a similar issue once in a story where the characters all knew each other by their real names, but also had stage names. I used their real names in the dialogue tags, but the stage names when they addressed one another on the set. I don't think there is any right or wrong answer; its a matter of what works best for your readers.

On another note, a scene with twelve characters? Are they all going to have speaking parts? That's he part I would worry about.

I've done some "practice runs" with the group. I originally created them about 2 years ago. I have a fully written "meeting" It's not an easy juggling act, but dialogue flows well for me. The focus is more on the actions and people's reactions to it so they all don't have to be yapping at the same time.

 

[Darkniciad]

I have one that has a similar situation going ( not yet posted ) where everyone has known each other by internet handles for ages, and only learn each other's real names during the story.

I have them shrug off the real names in favor of the handles early in the story, and refer to them by the handles for the remainder.

It's how we actually dealt with it when admins, models, and chatters from the cam site met in person. Easier to just stick with the handles, and not get used to the real names that you might slip up and use in open chat.

I've gone the other way, too. I had one where the characters were role-playing, and had made up names. While they referred to each other by the fake names in dialogue, I used the real names in tags and narrative.

Readers didn't seem to have any trouble following it, but I only had two characters there. I don't know how well that will work with more.

 

[D_Lynn]

Another possibility might be to use italics whenever you refer to their character names.

 

[damppanties]

I want the story to flow and be easy to follow for the reader. So I guess "transition" is what I am concerned with.

Since the POV is Justine's, something along the lines of -- 'She saw Orion emerging before her very eyes. His demeanor became strong and bold, with just that little bit of tightness about his mouth as he shed Mark's skin and morphed into...' and so on?

Oh, this isn't sci-fi...?

 

[lovecraft68]

Since the POV is Justine's, something along the lines of -- 'She saw Orion emerging before her very eyes. His demeanor became strong and bold, with just that little bit of tightness about his mouth as he shed Mark's skin and morphed into...' and so on?

Oh, this isn't sci-fi...?

No, although its trendy to write NH here, my characters are human. Although their behavior may not always reflect that.

Keep the vamps and were's and what have you.

Mankind is still the most evil thing on the face of this planet and always will be.

 

[lovecraft68]

I have one that has a similar situation going ( not yet posted ) where everyone has known each other by internet handles for ages, and only learn each other's real names during the story.

I have them shrug off the real names in favor of the handles early in the story, and refer to them by the handles for the remainder.

It's how we actually dealt with it when admins, models, and chatters from the cam site met in person. Easier to just stick with the handles, and not get used to the real names that you might slip up and use in open chat.

I've gone the other way, too. I had one where the characters were role-playing, and had made up names. While they referred to each other by the fake names in dialogue, I used the real names in tags and narrative.

Readers didn't seem to have any trouble following it, but I only had two characters there. I don't know how well that will work with more.

I went to a party like that not long before I met my wife. It was a bunch of people who got together through adult friend finder. It was a wild time.

Good thought, I hadn't thought of it like that.

And no, I did not meet my wife there.

 

[TxRad]

However you end up doing it, just make sure the reader knows what is going on and who is who. After all they are the ones who have to keep it all in mind. Too much and they are gone to read somewhere else.

 

[lance gt]

Using a couple of explanitory sentences before the change is all that is needed. Something like, '...once inside the inner sanctum of the cult, the members had to follow the strict rule of not using their real names and use aliases. Mark adopted his cult name of Orion, while Justine became....' , 'Mark refused to respond to his alias, Orion and continued to...."
Once explained, you are at liberty to go back and forth between names, as the reader will know who is who.

 

[Darkniciad]

I've never had any problem with readers keeping up with Mindblind, either. He goes by that name most of the time, but his wife and some of the other characters refer to him by his real name -- Cerebus.

I even use both of those and his title of Duke in dialogue tags and narrative without readers balking.

You're probably underestimating the readers a bit. Set it down when appropriate, and they'll keep up with you.

 

[Weird Harold]

'She saw Orion emerging before her very eyes. His demeanor became strong and bold, with just that little bit of tightness about his mouth as he shed Mark's skin and morphed into...' and so on?

No, although its trendy to write NH here, my characters are human. Although their behavior may not always reflect that.

the "transformation" doesn't have to be literal, it can be a transformation in behavior or body language:

She watched as he donned the Orion persona like a halloween costume

 

[damppanties]

No, although its trendy to write NH here, my characters are human. Although their behavior may not always reflect that.

Keep the vamps and were's and what have you.

Mankind is still the most evil thing on the face of this planet and always will be.

I get that, and..

the "transformation" doesn't have to be literal, it can be a transformation in behavior or body language:

She watched as he donned the Orion persona like a halloween costume

...this is what I meant. The joke at the end might have thrown you off (sorry!) but I was serious about using that device to talk about the transition from one persona to another.

 

[lovecraft68]

I get that, and..

...this is what I meant. The joke at the end might have thrown you off (sorry!) but I was serious about using that device to talk about the transition from one persona to another.

I did actually use a "transformation" style description at one point.

I wasn't trying to get snippy but the word "Morph" brought out Non Human to me.

I am sick to death of that category and hearing about it so got testy.

My apologies.