e-publishers and the taboo

[Vielle]

I know there have been post on this but I can't find them now.

There are tons of e-publishers of erotica out there now. I would be curious to hear authors recommendations.

I also notice that most are unwilling to publish incest themes. Does anyone know of a publisher that is okay with it?

I wonder if it is because of legal restrictions somewhere?

 

[geronimo_appleby]

I know there have been post on this but I can't find them now.

There are tons of e-publishers of erotica out there now. I would be curious to hear authors recommendations.

I also notice that most are unwilling to publish incest themes. Does anyone know of a publisher that is okay with it?

I wonder if it is because of legal restrictions somewhere?

group MVP in canada do incest.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vielle
I know there have been post on this but I can't find them now.

There are tons of e-publishers of erotica out there now. I would be curious to hear authors recommendations.

I also notice that most are unwilling to publish incest themes. Does anyone know of a publisher that is okay with it?

I wonder if it is because of legal restrictions somewhere?

group MVP in canada do incest.

Are they an e-publisher too? I send them stories monthly, but those are printed in digest form. They have some restrictions, but incest is not one of them. In that regard, they have the same limitations as Lit. - nobody under 18 yo.

 

[sr71plt]

This is something that can be researched. Go to such distributors as Smashwords and Allromanceebooks and review blurbs and tags for books that are similiar to the ones you want to publish. The publisher will be given--and the website will generally give a link to the publisher's website. On a theme like this you'll probably find that most are self-published, but you should come up a real publisher or three as well.

It's great if someone can give you ideas here, but if they don't, you have the means to do the research yourself.

 

[R. Richard]

I have currently some 32 novels published. When I submitted my first incest themed novel, my publisher refused to even read it. However, she did have one of her editors read it and the editor likes it, perhaps because my novel had a real plot and a rationale as to why the incest was taking place. My publisher did publish it and the sales are reasonable. However, my publisher still doesn't like incest stories and would be somewhat unlikely to publish same for a new author.

As to the 18-year-old and up requirement, that's an almost universal thing. Below 18-years-old is considered to be child pornography and almost no one (save the District Attorney) will have anything to do with it.

 

[sr71plt]

I might note (as we do almost weekly here) that the issue isn't just that a manuscript contains either incest or underage sexual content. It's how graphically the scenes of these are depicted. Mainstream publishing is full of published books on both themes. The less graphic you are on incest and underage sex scenes, the more likely you can get it published (ironically, easier in the mainstream than in the scrutinized erotica market).

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I might note (as we do almost weekly here) that the issue isn't just that a manuscript contains either incest or underage sexual content. It's how graphically the scenes of these are depicted. Mainstream publishing is full of published books on both themes. The less graphic you are on incest and underage sex scenes, the more likely you can get it published (ironically, easier in the mainstream than in the scrutinized erotica market).

The graphicness (? graphessence? graphiosity?) is an issue because most established publishers still recognize a difference between pornography and erotica. Pornography is writing that has no purpose but to sexually arouse and titillate. Sex is the whole point. Erotica is writing that includes graphic sex but in the service of telling a larger story. Story is the whole point; the sex is incidental.

It's a blurry line and it wavers back and forth, but incest is a sensitive and dicey subject, and if you concentrate on the graphic details of the encounter and play it for its porno value, you're probably going to have a hard time finding a mainstream publisher. And you'd better be sure that your characters are well past the age of 18. Sex with a relative below that age isn't considered incest. It's child sexual abuse.

 

[Firebrain]

The graphicness (? graphessence? graphiosity?) is an issue because most established publishers still recognize a difference between pornography and erotica. Pornography is writing that has no purpose but to sexually arouse and titillate. Sex is the whole point. Erotica is writing that includes graphic sex but in the service of telling a larger story. Story is the whole point; the sex is incidental.

It's a blurry line and it wavers back and forth, but incest is a sensitive and dicey subject, and if you concentrate on the graphic details of the encounter and play it for its porno value, you're probably going to have a hard time finding a mainstream publisher. And you'd better be sure that your characters are well past the age of 18. Sex with a relative below that age isn't considered incest. It's child sexual abuse.

I've always known erotica to be a story about sex. It quite often studies sexual awakenings and the associated happenings, for example. It might not even include that much sex but is erotica because of its very nature. The sex is not incidental at all, certainly. (That's not to say that erotica shouldn't have a plot, but that the plot--or one particularly prominent plot strand--is generally sex-related and this is what separates it from genre fiction with sex scenes).

 

[lovecraft68]

Smashwords will accept pretty much anything other than bestiality and under age, so pretty much like this site. I have several hardcore incest e-books on there.

I also have a couple of BDSM titles as well, but the incest far outsells them.

Because many publishers will not accept incest people are out there looking for it, so don't feel you necessarily have to water it down, you just can't get in with the big boys.

 

[sr71plt]

I've always known erotica to be a story about sex. It quite often studies sexual awakenings and the associated happenings, for example. It might not even include that much sex but is erotica because of its very nature. The sex is not incidental at all, certainly. (That's not to say that erotica shouldn't have a plot, but that the plot--or one particularly prominent plot strand--is generally sex-related and this is what separates it from genre fiction with sex scenes).

I agree with this. If sex is incidental to the story, it isn't erotica at all. It's either mainstream, because that's what you've got when the sex is incidental, or its porn, because the sex in it is too overwhelming to be called incidental.

 

[Vielle]

Smashwords will accept pretty much anything other than bestiality and under age, so pretty much like this site. I have several hardcore incest e-books on there.

I also have a couple of BDSM titles as well, but the incest far outsells them.

Because many publishers will not accept incest people are out there looking for it, so don't feel you necessarily have to water it down, you just can't get in with the big boys.

Thanks

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I've always known erotica to be a story about sex. It quite often studies sexual awakenings and the associated happenings, for example. It might not even include that much sex but is erotica because of its very nature. The sex is not incidental at all, certainly. (That's not to say that erotica shouldn't have a plot, but that the plot--or one particularly prominent plot strand--is generally sex-related and this is what separates it from genre fiction with sex scenes).

My distinction between porn and erotica could stand some clarification, especially what I mean by "incidental." It's not the sex that's incidental so much as the salacious detail used to recount it. And by "incidental", I mean "not essential to the story."

Take a basic plot like a younger girl's seduction by an older, predatory man (or woman. If you're writing porn, then you're going to concentrate on the sexual episode and play it for all the lewd and lascivious thrills you can wring out of it. The purpose of pornography is to sexually titillate and arouse your readers.

If you're trying to write something a bit more weighty and literary, then the real story will concern girl and the effect the encounter has on her. The graphic details of the episode -- the very things that porn is all about -- are not all that important and are, in fact, incidental to the story.

 

[sr71plt]

And what is it called when you try to include both? (I've been calling it literary porn.)

 

[lovecraft68]

It's a very good point about the difference between erotic and porn, and incidental and gratuitous sex. For instance VC Andrews made a fortune on incest, but the sex itself was very downplayed.

But here's the thing. Will a publisher take the time to look through the material and say "yup, this is porn, see ya!" or "hey there is a good story here and the sex is in the background let's run with it." odds are no.

 

[TxRad]

But here's the thing. Will a publisher take the time to look through the material and say "yup, this is porn, see ya!" or "hey there is a good story here and the sex is in the background let's run with it." odds are no.

It's all a matter of who is reading it and what they are looking for at the time.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's a very good point about the difference between erotic and porn, and incidental and gratuitous sex. For instance VC Andrews made a fortune on incest, but the sex itself was very downplayed.

But here's the thing. Will a publisher take the time to look through the material and say "yup, this is porn, see ya!" or "hey there is a good story here and the sex is in the background let's run with it." odds are no.

I don't quite understand what you mean. Unless you're dealing with some shlocky POD outfit that'll publish anything you send them, of course a publisher's going to "look through the material" and decide if it's porn or not, and not just once but many times. They're going to discuss it and critique it and edit and revise and proof it till it meets their standards, whatever they may be. I kjnow from experience, because I've had stuff rejected for being too pornographic, and not by some A-list publisher with high standards either, but by a 3rd-rate house that specialized in fairly low-rent "romantic erotica." The published 4 books I sent them, then said the fifth lacked plot and character and was basically nothing but a string of lewd and pornographic sex scenes, and they were right.

It's not at all difficult to tell when an author suddenly goes for the gonads and plays a sex scene only for its prurient interest, and that's especially true in a scene involving incest or rape or any other kind of traumatic or taboo sex. The trick of wrapping porn in a cloak of morality or "art" is an old one and doesn't fool anyone any more, especially editors. Could you imagine reading Lolita or Toys in the Attic and suddenly encountering a graphic sex scene involving dripping pussies and spurting cocks? The pornographic intent would hit you like a load in the face.

That's not to say that there can't be such a thing as literary porn, writing that's both sexually arousing and beautiful on a level beyond the salacious, and I'd go with SR in calling it literary sex or literary erotica. If the writing deals specifically with the meaning and emotional experience of sex, I call it sexual literature. It seems very strange to me that we have a literature about love, about friendship, about courage, about death, about violence, about almost every human concern except sex.

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't quite understand what you mean. Unless you're dealing with some shlocky POD outfit that'll publish anything you send them, of course a publisher's going to "look through the material" and decide if it's porn or not, and not just once but many times. They're going to discuss it and critique it and edit and revise and proof it till it meets their standards, whatever they may be. I kjnow from experience, because I've had stuff rejected for being too pornographic, and not by some A-list publisher with high standards either, but by a 3rd-rate house that specialized in fairly low-rent "romantic erotica." The published 4 books I sent them, then said the fifth lacked plot and character and was basically nothing but a string of lewd and pornographic sex scenes, and they were right.

It's not at all difficult to tell when an author suddenly goes for the gonads and plays a sex scene only for its prurient interest, and that's especially true in a scene involving incest or rape or any other kind of traumatic or taboo sex. The trick of wrapping porn in a cloak of morality or "art" is an old one and doesn't fool anyone any more, especially editors. Could you imagine reading Lolita or Toys in the Attic and suddenly encountering a graphic sex scene involving dripping pussies and spurting cocks? The pornographic intent would hit you like a load in the face.

That's not to say that there can't be such a thing as literary porn, writing that's both sexually arousing and beautiful on a level beyond the salacious, and I'd go with SR in calling it literary sex or literary erotica. If the writing deals specifically with the meaning and emotional experience of sex, I call it sexual literature. It seems very strange to me that we have a literature about love, about friendship, about courage, about death, about violence, about almost every human concern except sex.

I think the op was speaking of E-books, and many of the places to publish them aren't much more than hole in the wall places, who have bots that vet the work like lit does.

And I'm pretty sure you mean Flowers in the attic. Toys in the attic is an Aerosmith album, and I would be quite shocked to read about a spurting cock coming out of there.

Just kidding, I couldn't resist.

 

[Dual_Triode]

I think the op was speaking of E-books, and many of the places to publish them aren't much more than hole in the wall places, who have bots that vet the work like lit does.

And I'm pretty sure you mean Flowers in the attic. Toys in the attic is an Aerosmith album, and I would be quite shocked to read about a spurting cock coming out of there.

Just kidding, I couldn't resist.

Track 4 of "Toys in the Attic" is titled, "Big Ten Inch (Record)." There is little doubt about the subject matter.

 

[lovecraft68]

Track 4 of "Toys in the Attic" is titled, "Big Ten Inch (Record)." There is little doubt about the subject matter.

No, that is strictly about his record of his favorite blues!

Why you have to go and make it all dirty on us? Jeez you'd think we were on a sex site!

 

[Verdad]

It's not at all difficult to tell when an author suddenly goes for the gonads and plays a sex scene only for its prurient interest, and that's especially true in a scene involving incest or rape or any other kind of traumatic or taboo sex. The trick of wrapping porn in a cloak of morality or "art" is an old one and doesn't fool anyone any more, especially editors. Could you imagine reading Lolita or Toys in the Attic and suddenly encountering a graphic sex scene involving dripping pussies and spurting cocks? The pornographic intent would hit you like a load in the face.

I had already typed a response that said almost word for word what you say here, but then I shrugged and deleted it. I'm still delighted someone said it.

As for the rest, I’m fine with Firebrain's definitions. I understand a quality writer's desire to distinguish himself from the chaff, but I'm not sure if that immediately opens a new genre. There are good and awful detective stories, say, so there's good and awful porn too. And the good stuff is never something to sneer at, but its genre is, to my mind, still defined by its intention.

Re. literature of sex, my way of thinking about it is that sex is a powerful force that permeates all literature.