Free speech takes another hit in Europe

[renard_ruse]

France passing more absurd speech restrictions:

...French legislation that would criminalize any public denial of what the bill calls the Armenian genocide last century in Ottoman Turkey...

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/12/22/world/europe/france-armenia-genocide/?hpt=hp_t3

What is wrong with people today? How is telling people what they can or cannot say about history not totalitarianism?

I really love this:

...Armenia's foreign minister, Edward Nalbandian, hailed the move, saying France "reconfirmed its high place of being the cradle of human rights and once again proved its commitment to universal human values."...

Right, taking free speech and freedon of thought away from its own people really shows commitment to "human rights" (whatever that means anyway).

 

[renard_ruse]

That's why opposition to World War II Holocaust "denial" bans never had anything to do with anti-Jewish feelings. It was always about freedom of speech and thought, and where it would lead. Its already being expanded to another historical event. Where does this stop? If a special interest lobby is strong enough they can ban any speech they don't like?

And, what's really a shame, is that I used to respect Armenians. Armenian-Americans used to be a good Republican conservative constituency (at least in the US, not sure where they are politically in France). They seem to be changing though. As if the Kardashians weren't enough of a black eye on the Armenian community, prattling on all the time about this genocide is really getting old.

 

[Karen Kraft]

France passing more absurd speech restrictions:



What is wrong with people today? How is telling people what they can or cannot say about history not totalitarianism?

I really love this:



Right, taking free speech and freedon of thought away from its own people really shows commitment to "human rights" (whatever that means anyway).

Դա տրամաբանական է, որ ցանկանում ավազակ սադրանքներին խուսափելու բռնության.

 

[patrick1]

That's why opposition to World War II Holocaust "denial" bans never had anything to do with anti-Jewish feelings. It was always about freedom of speech and thought, and where it would lead. Its already being expanded to another historical event. Where does this stop? If a special interest lobby is strong enough they can ban any speech they don't like?

And, what's really a shame, is that I used to respect Armenians. Armenian-Americans used to be a good Republican conservative constituency (at least in the US, not sure where they are politically in France). They seem to be changing though. As if the Kardashians weren't enough of a black eye on the Armenian community, prattling on all the time about this genocide is really getting old.

I think you are mistaken here: the original laws really are about coming to terms with the horror of where anti-Jewish feelings led up to 1945.

Let me make it clear, I am adamantly opposed to laws against denying the Holocaust. But this issue (setting Armenia aside for a moment) looks different from the vantage point of continental Europe, especially those with more proscriptive legal systems. The EU proposed a Europe-wide ban ten years or so ago, but Britain and the Scandinavian countries said no on the grounds of freedom of speech.

The French lower house tried to pass a similar law starting 2006 but their Senate eventually rejected it. This is electioneering: half a million people of Armenian extraction live and vote in France.

Patrick

 

[The_Trouvere]

There are countries in Europe where Mein Kampf is illegal. I do not know if that means only that book stores cannot sell it, or if I would be arrested for taking my copy over with me. Perhaps they would search my belongings to see if I had it with me.

Mein Kampf is interesting and safe. No one reading it will learn to hate Jews. Adolf Hitler had interesting insights into human nature, but when he explains why he hates Jews he is unconvincing.

 

[Byron In Exile]

There are countries in Europe where Mein Kampf is illegal. I do not know if that means only that book stores cannot sell it, or if I would be arrested for taking my copy over with me. Perhaps they would search my belongings to see if I had it with me.

Mein Kampf is interesting and safe. No one reading it will learn to hate Jews. Adolf Hitler had interesting insights into human nature, but when he explains why he hates Jews he is unconvincing.

If it were between giving up your copy of Mein Kampf or going to jail, which would you choose?

 

[colddiesel]

I would have thought that America's attempt to destroy Wikileaks and Julian Assange was a far greater and more serious attack on freedom of speech.

 

[firenzi]

There are countries in Europe where Mein Kampf is illegal. I do not know if that means only that book stores cannot sell it, or if I would be arrested for taking my copy over with me. Perhaps they would search my belongings to see if I had it with me.

Mein Kampf is interesting and safe. No one reading it will learn to hate Jews. Adolf Hitler had interesting insights into human nature, but when he explains why he hates Jews he is unconvincing.

That's not true at all, at least in western Europe.

But I do agree with OP, limiting free speech is never a good thing.

 

[oggbashan]

There are countries in Europe where Mein Kampf is illegal. I do not know if that means only that book stores cannot sell it, or if I would be arrested for taking my copy over with me. Perhaps they would search my belongings to see if I had it with me.

Mein Kampf is interesting and safe. No one reading it will learn to hate Jews. Adolf Hitler had interesting insights into human nature, but when he explains why he hates Jews he is unconvincing.

During WWII, copies of Mein Kampf in both the original German and in English translations, were always in print and freely available in the UK - on the principle of "know your enemy".

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

If it were between giving up your copy of Mein Kampf or going to jail, which would you choose?

You're talking to a person who has read it 16.72 times...




He's memorized the damned thing.

 

[Byron In Exile]

During WWII, copies of Mein Kampf in both the original German and in English translations, were always in print and freely available in the UK - on the principle of "know your enemy".

Since the war it is banned in Germany.

Freedom of speech was healthier in Europe when Hitler was alive.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Since the war it is banned in Germany.

Freedom of speech was healthier in Europe when Hitler was alive.

As in, you could say anything you wanted as long as the Gestapo did not get wind of it?

 

[Byron In Exile]

As in, you could say anything you wanted as long as the Gestapo did not get wind of it?

I was talking about the civilized countries, obviously.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I was talking about the civilized countries, obviously.

Name one...

 

[Byron In Exile]

Name one...

Oooh... harsh!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

 

[patrick1]

Freedom of speech was healthier in Europe when Hitler was alive.

Oh, I must have dreamt the widespread censorship of theatre and film, the banning of books like 'Ulysses' and the widespread culture of official secrecy. Dammit, there I go again.

Patrick

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Oh, I must have dreamt the widespread censorship of theatre and film, the banning of books like 'Ulysses' and the widespread culture of official secrecy. Dammit, there I go again.

Patrick

You were alive then?



Gadzooks man, how freaking old are you?

 

[Byron In Exile]

Oh, I must have dreamt the widespread censorship of theatre and film, the banning of books like 'Ulysses' and the widespread culture of official secrecy. Dammit, there I go again.

Patrick

Look up, dummy.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Our difficulties are indeed great, if we consider ourselves alone. But when viewed in comparison with those of Europe, they are the joys of Paradise. In the eternal revolution of ages, the destinies have placed our portion of existence amidst such scenes of tumult and outrage, as no other period, within our knowledge, had presented. Every government but one on the continent of Europe, demolished, a conqueror roaming over the earth with havoc and destruction, a pirate spreading misery and ruin over the face of the ocean. Indeed, my friend, ours is a bed of roses. And the system of government which shall keep us afloat amidst this wreck of the world, will be immortalized in history.

— Thomas Jefferson, March 5, 1810

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Currently being immortalized as the bane of man...




Pity.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Currently being immortalized as the bane of man...

Pity.

Cui bono de hoc?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

COME ON MAN!



Wirklich?

 

[Byron In Exile]

COME ON MAN!

Wirklich?

It means, "who benefits from this?"

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

It means, "who benefits from this?"

Those in the population who represent Aristotle's slaves...



It is sad that only a minority of men yearn for Liberty, the others are satisfied with the trappings as long as their place at the table is secure.

Arbeit macht frei!