War on America

[eyer]

The United States Senate has declared that America is now a battlefield of the "War on Terror"...

Do you support Senate legislation which arms the United States federal government and the United States military with the authority to indefinitely detain American citizens, apprehended on American soil, without due process or trial, at the sole discretion of the President of the United States and/or his/her proxies, for simply being suspected of any association with terrorism?

My vote is in the thread title...
.
.
.
.
..

 

[cubbies]

The United States Senate has declared that America is now a battlefield of the "War on Terror"...

Do you support Senate legislation which arms the United States federal government and the United States military with the authority to indefinitely detain American citizens, apprehended on American soil, without due process or trial, at the sole discretion of the President of the United States and/or his/her proxies?

My vote is in the thread title...

Please provide support for these statements. TIA (This is Africa).

 

[patrick1]

The United States Senate has declared that America is now a battlefield of the "War on Terror"...

Do you support Senate legislation which arms the United States federal government and the United States military with the authority to indefinitely detain American citizens, apprehended on American soil, without due process or trial, at the sole discretion of the President of the United States and/or his/her proxies?

My vote is in the thread title...

This seems to be one of those campaign things that more than one of you is up to.

To remind you: the USA lost its reputation as the worldwide upholder of human rights under George W Bush by torturing people. This ifeels like a terrible attempt to lay the blame for this change on someone else, and I don't accept it.

Patrick

 

[eyer]

Please provide support for these statements. TIA (This is Africa).

Defense Authorization Act

http://www.google.com/#pq=planned+p....,cf.osb&fp=337d5922ed4f0202&biw=1024&bih=638

 

[cubbies]

I support it.

 

[Peregrinator]

The National Defense Authorization Act is the name of a United States federal law that has been enacted for each of the past 48 fiscal years to specify the budget and expenditures of the United States Department of Defense.[1]

~wiki.


Did something change this year?

 

[Brave Maximus]

I support it.

Oh dear god....

"it won't happen to me... so who cares... I support it so I can be safe."

 

[Peregrinator]

S.1867
National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 (Placed on Calendar Senate - PCS)

Subtitle D--Detainee Matters

SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.

(a) In General- Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.

(b) Covered Persons- A covered person under this section is any person as follows:

(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.

(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

(c) Disposition Under Law of War- The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:


SEC. 1032. REQUIREMENT FOR MILITARY CUSTODY.

(a) Custody Pending Disposition Under Law of War-

(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (4), the Armed Forces of the United States shall hold a person described in paragraph (2) who is captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) in military custody pending disposition under the law of war.

(2) COVERED PERSONS- The requirement in paragraph (1) shall apply to any person whose detention is authorized under section 1031 who is determined--

(A) to be a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force that acts in coordination with or pursuant to the direction of al-Qaeda; and

(B) to have participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.

(3) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR- For purposes of this subsection, the disposition of a person under the law of war has the meaning given in section 1031(c), except that no transfer otherwise described in paragraph (4) of that section shall be made unless consistent with the requirements of section 1033.

(4) WAIVER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY- The Secretary of Defense may, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, waive the requirement of paragraph (1) if the Secretary submits to Congress a certification in writing that such a waiver is in the national security interests of the United States.

(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-

(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

(2) LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to a lawful resident alien of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States, except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.

(c) Implementation Procedures-

(1) IN GENERAL- Not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the President shall issue, and submit to Congress, procedures for implementing this section.

(2) ELEMENTS- The procedures for implementing this section shall include, but not be limited to, procedures as follows:

(A) Procedures designating the persons authorized to make determinations under subsection (a)(2) and the process by which such determinations are to be made.

(B) Procedures providing that the requirement for military custody under subsection (a)(1) does not require the interruption of ongoing surveillance or intelligence gathering with regard to persons not already in the custody or control of the United States.

(C) Procedures providing that a determination under subsection (a)(2) is not required to be implemented until after the conclusion of an interrogation session which is ongoing at the time the determination is made and does not require the interruption of any such ongoing session.

(D) Procedures providing that the requirement for military custody under subsection (a)(1) does not apply when intelligence, law enforcement, or other government officials of the United States are granted access to an individual who remains in the custody of a third country.

(E) Procedures providing that a certification of national security interests under subsection (a)(4) may be granted for the purpose of transferring a covered person from a third country if such a transfer is in the interest of the United States and could not otherwise be accomplished.

(d) Effective Date- This section shall take effect on the date that is 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply with respect to persons described in subsection (a)(2) who are taken into the custody or brought under the control of the United States on or after that effective date.

 

[cubbies]

Oh dear god....

"it won't happen to me... so who cares... I support it so I can be safe."

yup. so what. i sleep well.

 

[cubbies]

S.1867
National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 (Placed on Calendar Senate - PCS)

Subtitle D--Detainee Matters

SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.

(a) In General- Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.

(b) Covered Persons- A covered person under this section is any person as follows:

(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.

(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

(c) Disposition Under Law of War- The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:


SEC. 1032. REQUIREMENT FOR MILITARY CUSTODY.

(a) Custody Pending Disposition Under Law of War-

(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (4), the Armed Forces of the United States shall hold a person described in paragraph (2) who is captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) in military custody pending disposition under the law of war.

(2) COVERED PERSONS- The requirement in paragraph (1) shall apply to any person whose detention is authorized under section 1031 who is determined--

(A) to be a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force that acts in coordination with or pursuant to the direction of al-Qaeda; and

(B) to have participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.

(3) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR- For purposes of this subsection, the disposition of a person under the law of war has the meaning given in section 1031(c), except that no transfer otherwise described in paragraph (4) of that section shall be made unless consistent with the requirements of section 1033.

(4) WAIVER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY- The Secretary of Defense may, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, waive the requirement of paragraph (1) if the Secretary submits to Congress a certification in writing that such a waiver is in the national security interests of the United States.

(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-

(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

(2) LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to a lawful resident alien of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States, except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.

(c) Implementation Procedures-

(1) IN GENERAL- Not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the President shall issue, and submit to Congress, procedures for implementing this section.

(2) ELEMENTS- The procedures for implementing this section shall include, but not be limited to, procedures as follows:

(A) Procedures designating the persons authorized to make determinations under subsection (a)(2) and the process by which such determinations are to be made.

(B) Procedures providing that the requirement for military custody under subsection (a)(1) does not require the interruption of ongoing surveillance or intelligence gathering with regard to persons not already in the custody or control of the United States.

(C) Procedures providing that a determination under subsection (a)(2) is not required to be implemented until after the conclusion of an interrogation session which is ongoing at the time the determination is made and does not require the interruption of any such ongoing session.

(D) Procedures providing that the requirement for military custody under subsection (a)(1) does not apply when intelligence, law enforcement, or other government officials of the United States are granted access to an individual who remains in the custody of a third country.

(E) Procedures providing that a certification of national security interests under subsection (a)(4) may be granted for the purpose of transferring a covered person from a third country if such a transfer is in the interest of the United States and could not otherwise be accomplished.

(d) Effective Date- This section shall take effect on the date that is 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply with respect to persons described in subsection (a)(2) who are taken into the custody or brought under the control of the United States on or after that effective date.

take it from here Perg.

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

This seems to be one of those campaign things that more than one of you is up to.

To remind you: the USA lost its reputation as the worldwide upholder of human rights under George W Bush by torturing people. This ifeels like a terrible attempt to lay the blame for this change on someone else, and I don't accept it.

Patrick

OMG you are totally one of those "forced hydration is torture" people. I'll admit...water boarding is scary as fuck but it isn't like it's painful or damaging like getting your ass beat is.

 

[Brave Maximus]

OMG you are totally one of those "forced hydration is torture" people. I'll admit...water boarding is scary as fuck but it isn't like it's painful or damaging like getting your ass beat is.

Torture = Torture is the act of inflicting severe pain (whether physical or psychological) as a means of punishment, revenge, forcing information or a confession, or simply as an act of cruelty.

Waterboarding = a form of torture in which water is poured over the face of an immobilized captive, thus causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning. Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and death.[1] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.

Forced hydration my ass... do you know what you're writing or are you just spouting shit?

 

[patrick1]

OMG you are totally one of those "forced hydration is torture" people. I'll admit...water boarding is scary as fuck but it isn't like it's painful or damaging like getting your ass beat is.

OMG I am totally one of those people who keeps up with the News. You have been torturing people since 2002. Here's an article about in the Telegraph, a notoriously left-wing newspaper: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...orture-and-extreme-stress-would-not-work.html

Patrick

 

[cubbies]

Torture = Torture is the act of inflicting severe pain (whether physical or psychological) as a means of punishment, revenge, forcing information or a confession, or simply as an act of cruelty.

Waterboarding = a form of torture in which water is poured over the face of an immobilized captive, thus causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning. Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and death.[1] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.

Forced hydration my ass... do you know what you're writing or are you just spouting shit?

Pain is subjective.

 

[Peregrinator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7u-Wk1aU-E

 

[Brave Maximus]

Pain is subjective.

No, levels of pain are subjective.
Pain itself is an automatic response from the nerves to the brain in response to stimuli that can be measured in certian parts of the brain.

Pain can be controlled and in certian people, they actually do not feel pain.

This is all irrelevant, as the act of torture does not reside in the victim, but in the person commiting the act. Even if the person doesn't feel pain, or can ignore it - your act was intended to cause it. There for the onus is on you.

 

[eyer]

This bill originated in the House...

...where all spending bills constitutionally must.

H.R. 1540: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 passed on May 26th with 322 Representatives voting for the bill, 96 against the bill, and 13 not voting at all.

227 Republicans voted for HR1540, 6 voted against it, and 6 didn't vote at all.

95 Democrats voted for the bill, 90 voted against it, and 7 didn't vote at all.

The Senate is now debating the bill with offered amendments...

...one of those amendments was the one voted down today, 61-37, offered by Colorado Democrat Senator Mark Udall which would rid the bill of the statement, “indefinite detention without charge or trial anywhere in the world where any president decides to use the military,” (as the ACLU put it).

Kentucky Republican Senator Rand Paul also is offering an amendment which eliminates Section 1031 entirely.

You can read Senator Udall's take on the issue here:

Defense bill gives military too much responsibility for detainees

For example, the provisions would require the military to dedicate a significant number of personnel to capturing and holding terrorism suspects — in some cases indefinitely — even those apprehended on U.S. soil. And they authorize the military to do so regardless of an accused terrorist’s citizenship, even if he or she is an American captured in a U.S. city.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...or-detainees/2011/11/28/gIQAbbAO6N_story.html

And you can listen to Senator Paul state his case here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=anjVgWNzQnk#!

 

[cubbies]

No, levels of pain are subjective.
Pain itself is an automatic response from the nerves to the brain in response to stimuli that can be measured in certian parts of the brain.

Pain can be controlled and in certian people, they actually do not feel pain.

This is all irrelevant, as the act of torture does not reside in the victim, but in the person commiting the act. Even if the person doesn't feel pain, or can ignore it - your act was intended to cause it. There for the onus is on you.

no.....My act was to get information. Talk MutherFucker.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

OMG you are totally one of those "forced hydration is torture" people. I'll admit...water boarding is scary as fuck but it isn't like it's painful or damaging like getting your ass beat is.

Sorry, but waterboarding is torture. Even our own government has said so, quite a number of Japanese soldiers were prosecuted at the Hague for war crimes over it's use on our soldiers after WW2, at least until the former administration tried to sugar-coat it and refer to it as "enhanced interrogation". It's a form of mock execution designed to make the subject think or feel that they are in imminent peril of death to force them to provide information. That sort of activity falls eactly within the definition of torture by all civilized nations.

Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (an advisory measure of the UN General Assembly of which the United States is a member) is:

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

This definition was restricted to apply only to nations and to government-sponsored torture. It did not include cases of countries where torture such as mutilation or whipping is practiced as lawful punishment, nor did it include cases of torture practiced by gangs or hate groups.

In 1986, the WHO working group introduced the concept of organized violence, which was defined as:
"The inter-human infliction of significant, avoidable pain and suffering by an organized group according to a declared or implied strategy and/or system of ideas and attitudes. It comprises any violent action that is unacceptable by general human standards, and relates to the victims’ feelings. Organized violence includes “torture, cruel inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” as in Article 5 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1984). Imprisonment without trial, mock executions, hostage-taking, or any other form of violent deprivation of liberty, also fall under the heading of organized violence."
An even broader definition was used in the 1975 Declaration of Tokyo:
For the purpose of this Declaration, torture is defined as the deliberate, systematic or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons acting alone or on the orders of any authority, to force another person to yield information, to make a confession, or for any other reason.

By that definition waterboarding is indeed torture just as much as beating a captive within an inch of their life in order to gain information from them.

The ends do not justify the means, Jack Bauer.

 

[Brave Maximus]

no.....My act was to get information. Talk MutherFucker.

TROLL!!!!! IN THE DUNGEON!!!!

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

LMFAO you guys are fucking hysterical.

http://stickerish.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/AwYeaBlackSS.png

 

[koalabear]

OMG I am totally one of those people who keeps up with the News. You have been torturing people since 2002. Here's an article about in the Telegraph, a notoriously left-wing newspaper: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...orture-and-extreme-stress-would-not-work.html

Patrick

We were torturing people long before 2002, try to keep up.

 

[cubbies]

We were torturing people long before 2002, try to keep up.

It's much easier to sub it out. More PC.

 

[cubbies]

TROLL!!!!! IN THE DUNGEON!!!!

If I don't get the answer I'm looking for, I will play Perry Como on the PA. Loud.

 

[Very_Bad_Man]

We have always tortured and so has many other "civilized" countries. The fuck up was when the US included general soldiers into the mix. I am not saying I agree with torture I am just stating facts. Torture rarely achieves good intel especially against a fanatic.