What Qualifies as Incest?

[sr71plt]

No, I'm not suggesting a discussion of the old chestnut question of whether step fathers/mothers/sisters/brothers count.

My two most recent Incest stories received comments that they weren't really Incest because they didn't really do it. An earlier Incest story of mine (to try to turn the stereotype on its head) was about a man who contemplated incest with a woman he thought was his daughter but really wasn't and wound up having sex with a woman he didn't realize really was his daughter until after he'd done it.

My premise in these stories was that the mere act of contemplating having incest sex--and, as was done in my stories, obsessing over it to the point of making it the centerpiece of the story--qualifies as Incest. That you don't have to actually do it; obsessing about doing it is enough to make it qualify.

All of this is based on the theory of what makes erotica erotica is the emotional dimension (not to mention the biblical passages that say if you contemplate adultery speicifically, you are an adulterer--that you don't actually have to do it.)

Thoughts?

 

[Darkniciad]

Intellectually, I agree with you.

As to the readership of the category... You can expect this kind of a reaction. Most of them don't even acknowledge the "taboo" part of the category title. Anything less than direct blood relations engaging in frequent sex acts will get panned by a large segment of the readership.

Mother/son is tops, followed by Father/daughter, then siblings. Anything beyond that doesn't get anywhere near as strong of a reaction. It's just too "diluted" at that point for the core readership. Many of them want some build up, guilt, angst, and such, but in the end, they need to be bumping uglies as a payoff, or you'll get panned.

 

[R. Richard]

All of this is based on the theory of what makes erotica erotica is the emotional dimension (not to mention the biblical passages that say if you contemplate adultery speicifically, you are an adulterer--that you don't actually have to do it.)

Thoughts?

However, if you don't actually do it, you miss out on so much!

 

[sr71plt]

However, if you don't actually do it, you miss out on so much!

Well, in my last one, they actually did do it--in a Twilight Zone way, and pretty graphically too--and that wasn't "real" enough for one commenter. (Like any of it is real in a fictional piece.)

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well, in my last one, they actually did do it--in a Twilight Zone way, and pretty graphically too--and that wasn't "real" enough for one commenter. (Like any of it is real in a fictional piece.)

Says more about the commenter, IMO, than about your story.

 

[SevenSquared]

Well I think that technically incest is a legal term, so it only really counts as incest if it is illegal in the country in which it is set. So, for example, if you set a story in the UK (or many states in the US), cousins wouldn't be incest.

However, I think on this site the category is intended for any story where any kind of sex between family members of any kind is a central theme.

 

[lovecraft68]

In principle the idea of lusting after a family member is technically incest. However, its like anything else. If you don't act on it, then it really is not.

For example if you have rape fantasies, but never act on them, you are not a rapist.

Also consider the site itself. In mainstream fiction implied incest or thoughts of may count, but here people are looking for the act itself and would b upset if you do not "deliver"

Now if you have the character go so far as to have a "wet dream" of sleeping with a family member, well then they did not"really" do it, but you satisfied the craving of the incest junkie.

 

[Bebeslut]

and that wasn't "real" enough for one commenter. QUOTE]

Who gives a crap what commenters say? If they had any talent, they'd be writing their own stuff.

 

[sr71plt]

and that wasn't "real" enough for one commenter. QUOTE]

Who gives a crap what commenters say? If they had any talent, they'd be writing their own stuff.

Thanks, but isn't it a false assumption to assume they aren't writing their own stuff?

 

[Boxlicker101]

I think there should be more emphasis on the "taboo" part. For instance, sex between a high school counselor or teacher and an 18 year old student would just go in E/C unless it would fit into somewhere. Likewise a priest and a nun or parishioner. Or a man and his stepdaughter, etc.

I have written quite a few stories involving such relationships, when there is no blood relationship involved, but they are considered taboo.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think there should be more emphasis on the "taboo" part. For instance, sex between a high school counselor or teacher and an 18 year old student would just go in E/C unless it would fit into somewhere. Likewise a priest and a nun or parishioner. Or a man and his stepdaughter, etc.

I have written quite a few stories involving such relationships, when there is no blood relationship involved, but they are considered taboo.

Step daughter always goes into incest. As does step anything. Of course legally it is not incest, but it runs along those lines.

I have said before that step incest is like drinking non alcoholic beer. Has some of the flavor, but none of the kick of the real thing.

Step incest if for the audience that has a latent incest fetish and tries to deny it.

Now what always gets me is in-law stories. Sleeping with your mother in law or sister in law goes into incest, but is even further away than step siblings/children.

Yeah it's sleazy, but it certainly is not incest.

Posers

 

[Darkniciad]

Good luck with that, Box. The readership of the category has pretty much decided that the "taboo" part doesn't exist, and I seriously doubt anything is going to change their mind.

Make the teacher between mid to late 30s and mid 40s and it will get just as many reads/votes in Mature + a higher score and no "THIS ISN'T INCEST!" comments.

In fact, I would dare say that it would get more reads and votes in Mature because you won't have any of the buzzwords like Mom, Dad, Sis, etc. in the title and tagline to attract the main part of the incest readership.

The readers makes up their own definition of what the categories are, regardless of the title, description line, and what authors choose to post. There's no getting around it.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Good luck with that, Box. The readership of the category has pretty much decided that the "taboo" part doesn't exist, and I seriously doubt anything is going to change their mind.

Make the teacher between mid to late 30s and mid 40s and it will get just as many reads/votes in Mature + a higher score and no "THIS ISN'T INCEST!" comments.

In fact, I would dare say that it would get more reads and votes in Mature because you won't have any of the buzzwords like Mom, Dad, Sis, etc. in the title and tagline to attract the main part of the incest readership.

The readers makes up their own definition of what the categories are, regardless of the title, description line, and what authors choose to post. There's no getting around it.

I have written one taboo story about an assistasnt dean in high school and an 18 year old female student, and it was criticized as not being incest. I thought of the AD as being too young to fit it into Mature. Other similar stories have gone into mature or BDSM when there is a spanking involved. Mature is pretty low on the heirarchy, and I have written stories about that same AD and student that went into First Time and Anal and T & M and Group when a second tracher got into the act.

 

[Darkniciad]

Trust me. The overwhelming definition I've heard from authors of what they believe the Mature category is has nothing to do with what the readers are looking for. Age gap is the key, not the age of the older character.

My first one in the category was actually moved there by Laurel when I'd submitted it as Erotic Couplings. I assumed it was going to be a death knell for the story...

For about 10 minutes.

When the votes started rolling in so fast that it would rise by 10 in the time it took me to click the refresh button, I changed my opinion in a hurry.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Trust me. The overwhelming definition I've heard from authors of what they believe the Mature category is has nothing to do with what the readers are looking for. Age gap is the key, not the age of the older character.

My first one in the category was actually moved there by Laurel when I'd submitted it as Erotic Couplings. I assumed it was going to be a death knell for the story...

For about 10 minutes.

When the votes started rolling in so fast that it would rise by 10 in the time it took me to click the refresh button, I changed my opinion in a hurry.

Well, that category does better than E/C or I/R, so I prefer Mature over either of those, but if it also fits into something else, such as Anal or LW or Lesbian or GM or BDSM or Incest or almost anything else, I prefer those other categories.

 

[Darkniciad]

At an average of 4.59, 691 votes, 73889 views in the category, I'll take it over pretty much anything

Nobody can say I didn't try to open the door and let you in on the action

 

[lovecraft68]

At an average of 4.59, 691 votes, 73889 views in the category, I'll take it over pretty much anything

Nobody can say I didn't try to open the door and let you in on the action

Those numbers are for the mature category? I'm halfway through a story about an older woman with a younger guy and was thinking E/C guess I'll go the other way now.

 

[Darkniciad]

Those numbers are for the mature category? I'm halfway through a story about an older woman with a younger guy and was thinking E/C guess I'll go the other way now.

Go for it. I assure you that you'll do at least 50% better on all stats in Mature than EC. That's a bare minimum. I would expect 100% or more, and probably with a higher score.

That is, provided you have enough age gap. In my experience, 15 years or so is the sweet zone. You can get away with older men than women on the top end, but 18-20 is the sweet zone for the younger character in all cases.

You could probably push any of those numbers and still vastly outperform EC, though.

I've gone from stunned to just pleasantly surprised when a story in the category hits 1k votes now.

 

[sr71plt]

I suppose I could try a cougar one out in Mature. I have one in that category that rates well enough (4.57), but isn't great on votes or views. But it's a true Mature one (both are mature). Very nice comments, though.

 

[Darkniciad]

I suppose I could try a cougar one out in Mature. I have one in that category that rates well enough (4.57), but isn't great on votes or views. But it's a true Mature one (both are mature). Very nice comments, though.

Real mature ( as in 50+ ) will do fine in the category. It just doesn't pull in the huge numbers that age-gap ( especially the type I described ) stories will, and it's unlikely that any other category would do as well unless it's a really sweet romance in the Romance category.

That's another nice thing about the category. The different readerships don't seem to fight and downvote each other.

It's almost the Anti-LW category.

Romantic age-gap stories will score higher as well, without losing the high vote and view returns. The thing is, you could probably sacrifice some of the votes and views for a higher score ( if it's in the age ranges I described earlier ) in Romance.

I curse every time I think about all the EC stories that I should have put in Mature. Laurel did me a major favor with that category change.

 

[sr71plt]

Laurel did me a major favor with that category change.

Well, Scouries thinks you are Laurel, so that's no surprise.

 

[Darkniciad]

Well, Scouries thinks you are Laurel, so that's no surprise.

No, the crazies think I'm Manu. Somehow, they don't seem to understand that if this was my house, I'd have done a half a dozen evil things to them years ago before banning them and viligently stomping every new clone that popped up.

My personal favorite is Global Ignore. You pick out the troll and his circle of supporters, and make it so they're the only ones who can see each other's posts.

Some of them will go on for years, screaming stupidity into the void without ever realizing they're effectively invisible.

 

[lovecraft68]

Go for it. I assure you that you'll do at least 50% better on all stats in Mature than EC. That's a bare minimum. I would expect 100% or more, and probably with a higher score.

That is, provided you have enough age gap. In my experience, 15 years or so is the sweet zone. You can get away with older men than women on the top end, but 18-20 is the sweet zone for the younger character in all cases.

You could probably push any of those numbers and still vastly outperform EC, though.

I've gone from stunned to just pleasantly surprised when a story in the category hits 1k votes now.

The woman is early forties the guy about 20, so sounds like it would fit.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Go for it. I assure you that you'll do at least 50% better on all stats in Mature than EC. That's a bare minimum. I would expect 100% or more, and probably with a higher score.

That is, provided you have enough age gap. In my experience, 15 years or so is the sweet zone. You can get away with older men than women on the top end, but 18-20 is the sweet zone for the younger character in all cases.

You could probably push any of those numbers and still vastly outperform EC, though.

I've gone from stunned to just pleasantly surprised when a story in the category hits 1k votes now.

Maybe you just attract more views, etc. than I do. My oldest Mature story was posted 7/31/04 and has a 4.27 score, 111 votes, 67,504 views and 2 PC. It has not been favorited.

Those numbers are a little better than E/C stories of the same age, but not twice as good. They are comparable to I/R stories and betteer than some Group Sex stories. They are not even close to First Time, Anal and some other categories.

 

[Darkniciad]

The woman is early forties the guy about 20, so sounds like it would fit.

That should be plenty of gap and close enough to the sweet zone of the ages to do well.

Maybe you just attract more views, etc. than I do. My oldest Mature story was posted 7/31/04 and has a 4.27 score, 111 votes, 67,504 views and 2 PC. It has not been favorited.

Those numbers are a little better than E/C stories of the same age, but not twice as good. They are comparable to I/R stories and betteer than some Group Sex stories. They are not even close to First Time, Anal and some other categories.

I'm basing it upon stories of the exact same age-gap theme posted in EC, as I did before Laurel changed the one to Mature. If you read them without looking at the category, you'd have no idea which one was in which category.

They're all also within the last couple of years, so the shifts in voting patterns over the years shouldn't have much effect.

Come to think of it, the numbers on my old EC stories has improved by leaps and bounds since I started posting in Mature.

I average 4.59, 297 votes, 48,208 views overall -- with the lowest vote/view category being EC. I don't write any fantasy, humor, horror, or the like in that name.

Group doesn't do nearly as well with age-gap, as I have several in that name. I have a partially completed Anal and an Interracial, so we'll see what happens when I post those. They aren't age-gap, though, so that won't really be a true barometer.

I'm half tempted to sneak an age-gap threesome into Mature just to see what happens. I've always went group with anything that wasn't 1on1 so far.