Writing Goal for the Day?

[soflabbwlvr]

LfT, why can't either Sydney or I be in charge of making the coffee?

It is too important of a job to be left to amateurs.

It's a sore subject right now. I just spent weeks with my parents, who make such weak and disgusting flavored coffee that I eventually decided to go without.

There's nothing I hate more than when someone offers coffee but serves hot brown water instead.

 

[PennLady]

There's nothing I hate more than when someone offers coffee but serves hot brown water instead.

I promise if anyone visits me to provide decent coffee, and not just hot brown water.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

I promise if anyone visits me to provide decent coffee, and not just hot brown water.

If you do that, I promise to bring dessert.

 

[SydneyBlake]

Didn't have time to do that last night and I actually deleted it instead of saving it as I often do. But you never know, maybe later...

Not all of us are fortunate enough to have a dad as scary as you. Some of us have to make do, and I was the new kid in town. And you have to realize, this was not a matter of being interested or not in someone -- this was some kind of stupid prank.

Yeah, that was a stupid prank. We've got the scary dad covered.

 

[SydneyBlake]

What I wondered was would the kid then go to her friends to get her number; if so, she should tell her friends not to give it out.

Good point. She does have some very stupid friends.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Finished the sex scene I started yesterday. One more to go, then a final confrontation and this story will be ready for my editor.

 

[PennLady]

Unfortunately, I doubt any will get done tonight. Hub is on his way back from Jersey City (hope to have him back by 6pm) and then it's "Back to School" night and of course -- no kids. So I'll go, he can have the kids, and then we'll deal with the rest.

I admit I'm also at a bit of a loss since I deleted part of a scene... I took out an antagonistic phone call between a dad and his daughter and that kind of drove other things... well, I guess I'll just go a different way. Perhaps more sex between my leads. That can fill in a bit.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Perhaps more sex between my leads. That can fill in a bit.

I would never fault you for adding more sex.

 

[PennLady]

I would never fault you for adding more sex.

I could add more coffee, too...

 

[Kojote]

There can't be enough of that, too...

 

[annanova]

There can't be enough of that, too...

Except, apparently, at my house.

Seasonal changes blow. Sinus meds before bed did nothing for my headache, so sleep last night was fleeting at best. Whatever I took this morning combined well with going back to bed, so the headache is down to a dull roar and has moved to my left shoulder.

With a party in the works for Saturday, I'm meeting a friend for coffee this afternoon to make plans. Who woulda thunk it'd be so hard to find older Jello molds? We need a menu that features foods from the '60s and '70s.

Story question: When using a second language for bits of conversation, how much is too much and when should a writer start translating it?

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

My sympathies, anna. Are you talking about allergies? Do you have a heavy-duty HEPA air filter in your house? We bought one after our first horrendous year in the south, and now have a few scattered around the house. Bonus: we haven't been sick since buying them five (!) years ago. Oh, and do you have a neti pot? They're gross, but work well (unless you are completely blocked).

Story question: When using a second language for bits of conversation, how much is too much and when should a writer start translating it?

No clue if there are hard editorial rules here.

But personally, I find reading snippets of a foreign language within an English story annoying. For something at lit, which is supposed to be fun, I don't like being reminded of my own language inferiority. And even when I do understand the language, I often wonder why the author couldn't have just written the dialogue in English with a remark that it was all in Russian or French or whatever. I've seen authors include in-text translations, but that gets unwieldy if done for more than a few words. In my more cynical moods, I wonder if the author is just trying to impress me.

My exceptions include: words everyone knows (merci, adios, etc); sci-fi languages, when you're tying to give the impression that totally incomprehensible words are flying past your characters; when one person is teaching another a language; and proper nouns. I'm sure there are others, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

I'm curious what others think.

 

[PennLady]

Damn stupid special characters... deleted my reply. Anyway.

Seasonal changes blow. Sinus meds before bed did nothing for my headache, so sleep last night was fleeting at best. Whatever I took this morning combined well with going back to bed, so the headache is down to a dull roar and has moved to my left shoulder.

Story question: When using a second language for bits of conversation, how much is too much and when should a writer start translating it?

Hope the aches and pains are better today and I second the neti pot. It's weird, but it works.

No clue if there are hard editorial rules here.

But personally, I find reading snippets of a foreign language within an English story annoying. For something at lit, which is supposed to be fun, I don't like being reminded of my own language inferiority. And even when I do understand the language, I often wonder why the author couldn't have just written the dialogue in English with a remark that it was all in Russian or French or whatever. I've seen authors include in-text translations, but that gets unwieldy if done for more than a few words. In my more cynical moods, I wonder if the author is just trying to impress me.

My exceptions include: words everyone knows (merci, adios, etc); sci-fi languages, when you're tying to give the impression that totally incomprehensible words are flying past your characters; when one person is teaching another a language; and proper nouns. I'm sure there are others, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

I'm curious what others think.

The foreign language stuff has come up twice for me. In Ghosts of the Forum, set in Montreal, I needed to use some French. I tried to keep it simple. I'm decent with languages and can parse simple stuff, but I couldn't read a whole paragraph.

I agree that providing a translation can be bulky, unless the phrase is short, and I've done that. I know in GotF, the woman comes out and rattles off some French and the guy is baffled, but then she apologizes and repeats in English. Other than that, the French is mostly spoken between Francophones, but after a line or two in French, the dialogue is in English -- much as is done in movies to set the tone.

In Numbers Game, I did a lot less of that, as the language in question was Russian, and fewer people know it. Not to mention they use a different alphabet. Originally I rendered conversations in Russian using angled quotes (<< and >> -- sorry, trying to make the actual quotes does something to my browser). However, after asking on the forums, sr71 says that's not how you do it; better to use regular quotes and perhaps italicize the language.

Sorry, off topic.

Anyway, I think a line or two is no big deal, if it's common stuff like hi, how are you, you look pretty. Otherwise, I think you need to provide some sort of translation, or note that the dialogue is in whatever language.

 

[Kojote]

Except, apparently, at my house.

Story question: When using a second language for bits of conversation, how much is too much and when should a writer start translating it?

I'd generally translate it if it is more than a few words.
In experiments I did myself I found out that even some english stuff in a german story can annoy people who should be at least partially able to understand it.
It worked for a song text which got translated in the mind of the main character. But more than that seems to be too much.
Should be even more difficult if the main language is the one spoken by most people who are fluent in a second language.

On the other hand I find it appealing to get some bits in the original language as a reader. Preferably with a translation of sorts. It adds to the 'exotic flavor'.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Story question: When using a second language for bits of conversation, how much is too much and when should a writer start translating it?

That's a good question, and the answer probably lies in how prevalent the language is and how commonly the words or phrases are used by English speakers.

I am currently writing a story with some Spanish slang sprinkled into the dialogue. I am not providing translations. I am, however, attempting to make the meaning of the words and phrases clear by using them in a context where the meaning is unmistakeable. In some cases that means using a similar but more common phrase in the next sentence, or an English equivalent in the prose that follows.

Even though my characters are bilingual, they would always use Spanish slang terminology in these situations. It would be unnatural for them to use English.

 

[sr71plt]

I think using foreign words and short phrases works best just to set the characters/scene in small doses and then explained in context as natürlich--naturally--and clearly as possible without kicking the reader out of the read. It helps if you can use words that either are in the English dictionary and thus known to both languages, are close to the English spelling, or are familiar enough to use more often for a character but are readily identifiable (e.g., the aforementioned "merci" or "ja," the German for "yes.") I might establish a first-generation German immigrant to the U.S. by giving them a quirk phrase in their own language they use a lot (equivalent to a valley girl's "like") and explain it the first time used and then used subsequently (sparingly) to maintain the character--like "nicht wahr" at the end of a sentence, loosely meaning "isn't that true?" or "don't you agree?"

Where I see it irritating the most is in long, unexplained French phrases--and especially ones that have an effect on the plotline--where the author's perspective is, "well, everyone speaks French, don't they?" No they don't, and they aren't necessarily uneducated because they don't. I see this mostly with French and it does come across to me as condescending. I always get the urge to have it translated and then translate it back into Chinese or Thai and sent back to the author. And if there's a lot of it, I'll stop reading.

As far as daily writing production, my own writing day has been knocked for a loop, as a mainstream publisher manuscript unexpected dropped for edting. Looks interesting, though: how the Soviets take credit for defeating the Japanese in WWII even though they didn't declare war on the Japanese until all but the surrender signing was over. Probably not all that erotic, though. (not even any rape an pillage, I don't think.)

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

.....

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Worked out the plot and scenes of the latest tale I'm writing. Its important to link all the significant aspects of the story together in the 1st chapter. And it all has to be natural and expected.

So the chapter one starts with a teevee news report of geezer abuse at a local nursing home, and concludes when the victim dies during transfer to a Federal Family Treatment Facility.

 

[Kojote]

I think using foreign words and short phrases works best just to set the characters/scene in small doses and then explained in context as natürlich--naturally--and clearly as possible without kicking the reader out of the read. It helps if you can use words that either are in the English dictionary and thus known to both languages, are close to the English spelling, or are familiar enough to use more often for a character but are readily identifiable (e.g., the aforementioned "merci" or "ja," the German for "yes.") I might establish a first-generation German immigrant to the U.S. by giving them a quirk phrase in their own language they use a lot (equivalent to a valley girl's "like") and explain it the first time used and then used subsequently (sparingly) to maintain the character--like "nicht wahr" at the end of a sentence, loosely meaning "isn't that true?" or "don't you agree?"

Where I see it irritating the most is in long, unexplained French phrases--and especially ones that have an effect on the plotline--where the author's perspective is, "well, everyone speaks French, don't they?" No they don't, and they aren't necessarily uneducated because they don't. I see this mostly with French and it does come across to me as condescending. I always get the urge to have it translated and then translate it back into Chinese or Thai and sent back to the author. And if there's a lot of it, I'll stop reading.

I not only second that, but want to thank you for showing how it could look...
Darauf hätte ich mal kommen sollen - Should have thought of that myself.

Yet I just remember one project were I broke my own rule for this.
It's a yet to finish story about non verbal communication and I use some french phrases without detailed explanation and let the main character guess what is meant. It seems to work and feels okay for he isn't fluent in french himself and I feel it adds to the flair...
But then again all questions that arise get answered as the story goes. So it comes out pretty clear if he did understand something wrong or right.

 

[PennLady]

Actually wrote more last night, and a bit during the day. Every little bit helps.

 

[sr71plt]

Nose to the grindstone today. At least four, maybe five, editing/writing projects demanding attention. (And another book launched last evening.)

 

[CarlusMagnus]

Story question: When using a second language for bits of conversation, how much is too much and when should a writer start translating it?

I'd say that the needs of the story dictate what you should do here. For example, if you're writing in first person and your narrator doesn't understand the language in question, you wouldn't translate it. If it's very long, you might not even record it, because a narrator who doesn't understand a language would probably not be able to report it.

 

[estragon]

As for foreign language phrases, when in doubt, strike them out. Too often it sounds like "French (or German, or Spanish, or Thai) For Dummies". SA Penn Lady's Ghosts of the Forum, which she migrated from Lit to the commercial world, was a fine example of how to use high school French well, to move the story; and it serves as a good example for other foreign languages. But in the hands of a writer less gifted, high school French (or whatever) is a dangerous toy.

Oh yes, goals? More of that damned Ch 4--and I use the word "damned" advisedly. I feel like VanDerDecken, the Flying Dutchman, condemned to sail forever and make no progress.

 

[lovecraft68]

Got 39 back from my gorgeous editor. Not only need to fix the usual punctuation errors, but looks like some actual rewriting needs to be done. One step forward half step back.

Speaking of forward halfway through part three of the finale of my series. Very inspired so burning through it quick and dirty to get it all down, then will go back and cut it up later.

 

[PennLady]

As for foreign language phrases, when in doubt, strike them out. Too often it sounds like "French (or German, or Spanish, or Thai) For Dummies". SA Penn Lady's Ghosts of the Forum, which she migrated from Lit to the commercial world, was a fine example of how to use high school French well, to move the story; and it serves as a good example for other foreign languages. But in the hands of a writer less gifted, high school French (or whatever) is a dangerous toy.

Thank you, kind sir, but I'll have to point out that my French was not just high school, but wrong. Which I didn't know, of course, not being aware of all the nuances of Quebec/Montreal French. So for the e-book version, a beta reader who'd spent time in Montreal was generous enough to help me fix it.

But I do think that one needs to remember that not all readers will as familiar with a language as others, so I'd err on the side of less of the foreign language, or on the side of making sure a translation is provided.

Hoping to write some more tonight -- time for the big show!