Union Thugs Riot in Longview, Washington!

[amicus]

First let me say thank you! for dropping the capitalized nouns and posting to me as a fellow human. Please keep it up!

Your position is basically the same as AJ's, very idealistic. "We'll never get to the free society if we don't strive for it." Admirable sentiments.

Do you see the problem with this:



You glide right over the huge power imbalance between the organized, wealthy corporation and the indivdual worker, as well as the well documented long history of "business people taking advantage". "Everyone does it, workers do it too, nothing to see here, move right along folks".

And then you want a "free market without coercion".

You first, businesspeople, say I.

~~~

I am uncertain as to why you are patronizing me...I attempt to respond in kind to those I reply to in specific, and we are mostly all unknown to each other and I seldom personalize these anonymous relationships.

It appears to me that you divorce human nature from your conceptualizations of both Labor and Capital. I have been both an employer and an employee and I am as natural as anyone else in attempting to maximize my advantage in either case.

Are you above all that?

The thing you seem to overlook is that we are each and all, humans. It matters not if we work on an assembly line or are CEO in a multi-national corporation, we each have the same possibilities to be 'good' human beings, or not.

What always troubles me about Regressives, is that you all somehow think that by becoming part of the Government fold, you become more than human and capable of dispensing true justice in all your dealings. I find that ludicrous.

Corruption is equally as rife in labor, capital or government; which is why sophisticated societies have instituted a system of laws and courts to adjudicate injustices.

There is no recourse when government runs everything.

Amicus

 

[rosco rathbone]

~~~

I am uncertain as to why you are patronizing me...I attempt to respond in kind to those I reply to in specific, and we are mostly all unknown to each other and I seldom personalize these anonymous relationships.

It appears to me that you divorce human nature from your conceptualizations of both Labor and Capital. I have been both an employer and an employee and I am as natural as anyone else in attempting to maximize my advantage in either case.

Are you above all that?

The thing you seem to overlook is that we are each and all, humans. It matters not if we work on an assembly line or are CEO in a multi-national corporation, we each have the same possibilities to be 'good' human beings, or not.

What always troubles me about Regressives, is that you all somehow think that by becoming part of the Government fold, you become more than human and capable of dispensing true justice in all your dealings. I find that ludicrous.

Corruption is equally as rife in labor, capital or government; which is why sophisticated societies have instituted a system of laws and courts to adjudicate injustices.

There is no recourse when government runs everything.

Amicus

I'm not patronizing you. I'm just glad that you stopped posting like you were smoking shredded copies of Common Sense. The pseudo-18th century thing is annoying to me and gives the impression that you think you are handing down tablets carved in stone from a mountain top.

Now as to your argument, of course I'm not "above all that". That was the whole point of my post. I don't think government is incorruptible, any more than corporations are. There are no good guys in this fight, only winners and losers.

That's how CEOs think, and that's how labor needs to think as well. The PR battle is a separate issue.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

Government is the ultimate tyrant for those who wanna eat good but not produce. Government alone has the license to take your property, liberty, and life. This isnt to say that bureaucrats and politicians arent deluded about their contributions to the commonwealth, they believe theyve done something when they count all the Niggaz, create more habitat for wharf rats, and stir up quarrels across the fruited plain.

 

[amicus]

I'm not patronizing you. I'm just glad that you stopped posting like you were smoking shredded copies of Common Sense. The pseudo-18th century thing is annoying to me and gives the impression that you think you are handing down tablets carved in stone from a mountain top.

Now as to your argument, of course I'm not "above all that". That was the whole point of my post. I don't think government is incorruptible, any more than corporations are. There are no good guys in this fight, only winners and losers.

That's how CEOs think, and that's how labor needs to think as well. The PR battle is a separate issue.

~~~

Rosco rathbone, I do love the alliteration in your psuedonym, there is a visceral feeling in saying it out loud....the common place dislike of historical figures and documents, such as the one you referenced by Thomas Paine and many others, I do present just as you say, as those universal concepts are no longer taught in public schools, one must search to find them when they should be a part of common education.

It is far too complicated, complex and lengthy to explain in a short essay, but since the 'War to end all Wars', WW1, then WW2 and the Atomic Bomb, the Regressivist POV has been to deny all historical imperatives and cling to a subjective and relativist conglomeration of moral non absolutes in hopes of not having to posit a position on anything.

I was tempted to ask you to identify your ideology, but I know, beforehand, that you will not.

Perfection is not a function of evolution; but striving for perfection, is. So. too, is human social evolution; we strive for a perfect society with basic imperatives: those of individual freedom, liberty and the protected rights to choose our own life style without infringing upon the rights of others, equal under the law.

I may err in herding you together with all the other Regressives who wish for a controlled society with enforced equality as the end result. If so, please accept my apology.

Amicus

 

[rosco rathbone]

~~~

Rosco rathbone, I do love the alliteration in your psuedonym, there is a visceral feeling in saying it out loud....the common place dislike of historical figures and documents, such as the one you referenced by Thomas Paine and many others, I do present just as you say, as those universal concepts are no longer taught in public schools, one must search to find them when they should be a part of common education.

It is far too complicated, complex and lengthy to explain in a short essay, but since the 'War to end all Wars', WW1, then WW2 and the Atomic Bomb, the Regressivist POV has been to deny all historical imperatives and cling to a subjective and relativist conglomeration of moral non absolutes in hopes of not having to posit a position on anything.

I was tempted to ask you to identify your ideology, but I know, beforehand, that you will not.

Perfection is not a function of evolution; but striving for perfection, is. So. too, is human social evolution; we strive for a perfect society with basic imperatives: those of individual freedom, liberty and the protected rights to choose our own life style without infringing upon the rights of others, equal under the law.

I may err in herding you together with all the other Regressives who wish for a controlled society with enforced equality as the end result. If so, please accept my apology.

Amicus

There are excellent reasons, well grounded in solid philosophy, for subjectivism and relativism, but that's probably all too abstract for a thread on unions.

I don't deny that I have an ideology of sorts, meaning a rough worldview full of heuristics, rules of thumb, inchoate likes and dislikes and half baked justifications largely motivated by self interest--like everyone else.

But I don't have an Ideology, although I respect the power of capital I ideologies to inspire people.

I notice that you are basing your ideology of free markets on the firm base of evolutionary theory---a neat trick. No need to strive against socialism, then, right? The coming of the market utopia is guaranteed by Darwin.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The Liberal idea of evil is the property owner tween them and their 'entitlement.'

 

[NeverEndingMe]

so do you support union terrorist destroying property in their baby tantrum?

First let me say thank you! for dropping the capitalized nouns and posting to me as a fellow human. Please keep it up!

Your position is basically the same as AJ's, very idealistic. "We'll never get to the free society if we don't strive for it." Admirable sentiments.

Do you see the problem with this:



You glide right over the huge power imbalance between the organized, wealthy corporation and the indivdual worker, as well as the well documented long history of "business people taking advantage". "Everyone does it, workers do it too, nothing to see here, move right along folks".

And then you want a "free market without coercion".

You first, businesspeople, say I.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

its hard for CEO's to communicate with union terrorist. maybe we need to send all union members back to kindergarten?



QUOTE=rosco rathbone;38595369]I'm not patronizing you. I'm just glad that you stopped posting like you were smoking shredded copies of Common Sense. The pseudo-18th century thing is annoying to me and gives the impression that you think you are handing down tablets carved in stone from a mountain top.

Now as to your argument, of course I'm not "above all that". That was the whole point of my post. I don't think government is incorruptible, any more than corporations are. There are no good guys in this fight, only winners and losers.

That's how CEOs think, and that's how labor needs to think as well. The PR battle is a separate issue.[/QUOTE]

 

[amicus]

There are excellent reasons, well grounded in solid philosophy, for subjectivism and relativism, but that's probably all too abstract for a thread on unions.

I don't deny that I have an ideology of sorts, meaning a rough worldview full of heuristics, rules of thumb, inchoate likes and dislikes and half baked justifications largely motivated by self interest--like everyone else.

But I don't have an Ideology, although I respect the power of capital I ideologies to inspire people.

I notice that you are basing your ideology of free markets on the firm base of evolutionary theory---a neat trick. No need to strive against socialism, then, right? The coming of the market utopia is guaranteed by Darwin.

~~~~

Hmmm...I find I must grant you the title of 'worthy adversary', something I seldom do with my opponents in verbal jousting herewith.

There are indeed, opinions, poorly grounded in formal philosophy, advocating subjectivism and relativism, which have been totally refuted by modern philosophers. It seems there really is an absolute reality, and an 'absolute' nature of the species, which dictates rational behavior.

And it is far too abstract and conceptual to expect any understanding per forceful imposition of labor upon the common man.

Darwin, in essence, is properly applied to insentient beings, and works quite well. However, adding self awareness, and the natural inclinations of a mother to care for her offspring, and other such distinctions, places man in a special category, which most Regressives are not willing to acknowledge; that of self determination.

You do have an Ideology...ill defined, perhaps, and incongruent, but you do have one....every human being does.

Ami

 

[JuanVato]

so true

We also see the administration grounding union fire-fighting equipment (planes) over a contract dispute, but what the hell, it's Texas, let Rick Perry put it out; Obama is too busy trying to get reelected...

It's gets worse Frisco.
That plane was here and sitting while more houses burned.
We live in a state of 23 million people AND NO ONE CAN FLY THAT PLANE?
WTF?
Then the news had some guy on there complaining that "This is Katrina all over again" because he was not getting free housing RIGHT NOW.
The big rumor went out too, reported by one news outlet, then was "corrected" that the state called out for "Anyone with firefighter training". These men and women showed up and the second FEMA came in and took control, they were sent home.

Strange, since I thought our Gov. was "Fed Up".

There was one fire 8 miles from me on Friday.

 

[rosco rathbone]

~~~~

Hmmm...I find I must grant you the title of 'worthy adversary', something I seldom do with my opponents in verbal jousting herewith.

There are indeed, opinions, poorly grounded in formal philosophy, advocating subjectivism and relativism, which have been totally refuted by modern philosophers. It seems there really is an absolute reality, and an 'absolute' nature of the species, which dictates rational behavior.

And it is far too abstract and conceptual to expect any understanding per forceful imposition of labor upon the common man.

Darwin, in essence, is properly applied to insentient beings, and works quite well. However, adding self awareness, and the natural inclinations of a mother to care for her offspring, and other such distinctions, places man in a special category, which most Regressives are not willing to acknowledge; that of self determination.

You do have an Ideology...ill defined, perhaps, and incongruent, but you do have one....every human being does.

Ami

As you say, Darwinian theory is properly applied only to "insentient beings". As soon as you allow for free will, self awareness and what not, anything goes. Well, not "any thing", since we are constrained by our animal origins and the limitations of physical reality, but many things.

My belief is that abstract first principles don't matter too much here. Emotion and ape psychology are more important. You have a fundamentally conservative view of the world, in which hierarchy and social position (as expressed through ownership of property) are the most important things in life. I have a fundamentally liberal view of the world and I have no problem doing all I can to limit your right to unlimited property if that's what I need to do to uplift those at the bottom. We're natural "ideological" opposites and all the philosophy and rationality in the world won't alter that one whit.

 

[amicus]

AMICUS

Government is the ultimate tyrant for those who wanna eat good but not produce. Government alone has the license to take your property, liberty, and life. This isnt to say that bureaucrats and politicians arent deluded about their contributions to the commonwealth, they believe theyve done something when they count all the Niggaz, create more habitat for wharf rats, and stir up quarrels across the fruited plain.

~~~

James...I want to say hello...and mention that my late tomato crop is humongous and that the moochers, with 'maters' still at two bucks a pound out here, grab them the moment I put them out...my good deed for the lower class...heh...

Every society needs a government; that described by our founding documents, to protect life, liberty and property...and nothing else...but we are all human, as I mentioned elsewhere, and how to oversee them....is something I have not yet resolved...

You?

ami

 

[amicus]

As you say, Darwinian theory is properly applied only to "insentient beings". As soon as you allow for free will, self awareness and what not, anything goes. Well, not "any thing", since we are constrained by our animal origins and the limitations of physical reality, but many things.

My belief is that abstract first principles don't matter too much here. Emotion and ape psychology are more important. You have a fundamentally conservative view of the world, in which hierarchy and social position (as expressed through ownership of property) are the most important things in life. I have a fundamentally liberal view of the world and I have no problem doing all I can to limit your right to unlimited property if that's what I need to do to uplift those at the bottom. We're natural "ideological" opposites and all the philosophy and rationality in the world won't alter that one whit.

~~~

You are so wrong and so irrational, that I must expend a few moments to illustrate to others your errors.

Abstract first principles such as...love...actually do matter very much here.

'Conservative' is an abstract concept, so let us be specific and note that the ownership of 'property', one's own body and the physical existents such as food, shelter, clothing, water, air, are, in fact, and in reality, the essential important things in life.

Ideology is not 'natural' it is selected and chosen, you ain't born a moocher, and without the use of force...you have no ideology.

I have an understanding of little girls and women who feel the need to care for helpless things at the 'bottom', but I do not consider my fellow human beings to be at the bottom; they, as I, in a free society, have every opportunity to choose their lifestyle.

Rationality and Philosophy are the only tools that mankind has to rise above the collective existence of the herd. Why do you so much desire to return to the communal existence of and ape clan?

Amicus

 

[richard_daily]

I'm saying you're mentally deficient.

Too cowardly to answer the question... no surprise, and nothing new from you.

Back to the glory hole with you.

 

[richard_daily]

As I see it, the only mismanagment by the companies (TWA & Pan Am), were giving in to the unions.

You're clearly a liberal arts major if that's what you believe.

 

[rosco rathbone]

~~~

You are so wrong and so irrational, that I must expend a few moments to illustrate to others your errors.

Abstract first principles such as...love...actually do matter very much here.

'Conservative' is an abstract concept, so let us be specific and note that the ownership of 'property', one's own body and the physical existents such as food, shelter, clothing, water, air, are, in fact, and in reality, the essential important things in life.

Ideology is not 'natural' it is selected and chosen, you ain't born a moocher, and without the use of force...you have no ideology.

I have an understanding of little girls and women who feel the need to care for helpless things at the 'bottom', but I do not consider my fellow human beings to be at the bottom; they, as I, in a free society, have every opportunity to choose their lifestyle.

Rationality and Philosophy are the only tools that mankind has to rise above the collective existence of the herd. Why do you so much desire to return to the communal existence of and ape clan?

Amicus

Everyone is quick to claim Reason on their side. I'm dubious about Rand style claims that the free market is the only possible outcome of reasoning from irrefutable first principles.

In a "free society", no doubt everyone would have the opportunity to choose their lifestyle. It's part of my liberal belief set to think that we have nothing like a free society, just a lot of platitudes mouthed by crony capitalists and their well paid henchmen.

The professors of economics are so frustrated when humans refuse to conform to the model of utility maximizing rational agents found in the textbooks. Why, if people insist on behaving so irrationally, the forumulas will not work! So much the worse for the people! they say.

All the Randian propagandizing in the world will never change human psychology. That's why I'm so interested in definitions of poverty, notions of relative wealth, and the works of Thorstein Veblen who in my opinion is a great prophet without honor in his own land.

We are an ape collective like it or not, and until replaced by droids we will continue to be an ape collective. FDR knew that you have to placate those at the bottom of the ladder or they tend to upset the applecart of capitalism. We're about to relearn that lesson.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

Congrats for your tomatoes. The extreme heat ruined mine but I harvested plenty of cucumbers this summer. Temps are moderate now so the Fall maters look to do better. Corn looks good. Green beans look good. And the pumpkins are swelling.

I say, if we can impose political limits on soldiers and bureaucrats I see no reason why we cant clip some politician wings. Lets make it the public service they say it is.

But its prolly too late for reforms in America. The money problems have gone too far, and civil war is likely. The nation needs a cleansing enema and plenty of pols dangling from street lamps.

 

[amicus]

Everyone is quick to claim Reason on their side. I'm dubious about Rand style claims that the free market is the only possible outcome of reasoning from irrefutable first principles.

In a "free society", no doubt everyone would have the opportunity to choose their lifestyle. It's part of my liberal belief set to think that we have nothing like a free society, just a lot of platitudes mouthed by crony capitalists and their well paid henchmen.

The professors of economics are so frustrated when humans refuse to conform to the model of utility maximizing rational agents found in the textbooks. Why, if people insist on behaving so irrationally, the forumulas will not work! So much the worse for the people! they say.

All the Randian propagandizing in the world will never change human psychology. That's why I'm so interested in definitions of poverty, notions of relative wealth, and the works of Thorstein Veblen who in my opinion is a great prophet without honor in his own land.

We are an ape collective like it or not, and until replaced by droids we will continue to be an ape collective. FDR knew that you have to placate those at the bottom of the ladder or they tend to upset the applecart of capitalism. We're about to relearn that lesson.

~~~

You illustrate so very well that: " a little education is a dangerous thing"...

I do, however, appreciate your reference to Ayn Rand and her Philosophy, as the primary advocacy of self evident first principles in the 20th century.

Yes, I am clever in my rhetoric...and devious; but I do appreciate those who can appreciate it.

Your second paragraph is not worthy of response.

Your third paragraph: yes, such a pity that people do not adhere to Utilitarianism; ya know, the cost/benefit ratio concerning human life, golly gee whiz, some people value life over the accountants numbers of socialism, imagine that?

Geez, I haven't read anyone touting Thorstein Veblein and his, "Conspicuous consumption is spending on goods and services acquired mainly for the purpose of displaying income or wealth." theory, for decades...you really are esconsced in the 60's, ain't ya?

We are an ape collective like it or not, and until replaced by droids we will continue to be an ape collective. FDR knew that you have to placate those at the bottom of the ladder or they tend to upset the applecart of capitalism. We're about to relearn that lesson.[/

"We are an 'ape' collective..."?

Really? You believe that? Really?

Dumbass.

No. Really. Dumb Ass. I choose the words; you really are if you believe and state that mankind is an ape collective; and I think everyone who reads this will begin to understand just what the Regressives really think of humankind and our modern society.

We are an ape collective like it or not, and until replaced by droids we will continue to be an ape collective. FDR knew that you have to placate those at the bottom of the ladder or they tend to upset the applecart of capitalism. We're about to relearn that lesson.

I chose to quote your exact words....placate the bottom of the ladder? You jest, of course? It is the bottom of the ladder that benefits from a free market place: they at least have a chance, under Statism, they have no chance at all and you know it; they are locked into what you elitists plan for them.

Your entire philosophy and world view is not just wrong, it is obscene and I will exert every ounce of effort that remains in me to illustrate just how evil your views are.

I remain:

Amicus Veritas

 

[rosco rathbone]

~~~

You illustrate so very well that: " a little education is a dangerous thing"...

I do, however, appreciate your reference to Ayn Rand and her Philosophy, as the primary advocacy of self evident first principles in the 20th century.

Yes, I am clever in my rhetoric...and devious; but I do appreciate those who can appreciate it.

Your second paragraph is not worthy of response.

Your third paragraph: yes, such a pity that people do not adhere to Utilitarianism; ya know, the cost/benefit ratio concerning human life, golly gee whiz, some people value life over the accountants numbers of socialism, imagine that?

Geez, I haven't read anyone touting Thorstein Veblein and his, "Conspicuous consumption is spending on goods and services acquired mainly for the purpose of displaying income or wealth." theory, for decades...you really are esconsced in the 60's, ain't ya?



"We are an 'ape' collective..."?

Really? You believe that? Really?

Dumbass.

No. Really. Dumb Ass. I choose the words; you really are if you believe and state that mankind is an ape collective; and I think everyone who reads this will begin to understand just what the Regressives really think of humankind and our modern society.



I chose to quote your exact words....placate the bottom of the ladder? You jest, of course? It is the bottom of the ladder that benefits from a free market place: they at least have a chance, under Statism, they have no chance at all and you know it; they are locked into what you elitists plan for them.

Your entire philosophy and world view is not just wrong, it is obscene and I will exert every ounce of effort that remains in me to illustrate just how evil your views are.

I remain:

Amicus Veritas

I'm not going to bandy philosophies with you if you are going to personally insult me.

 

[cjh]

I'm not going to bandy philosophies with you if you are going to personally insult me.

i read that post and heard, "uncle."

you've a great mind for ideas. i enjoy it when you share it.

 

[JohnnySavage]

I'm not going to bandy philosophies with you if you are going to personally insult me.

Kudos on the av.

 

[amicus]

I'm not going to bandy philosophies with you if you are going to personally insult me.

~~~

I tried earlier to depersonalize my commentary as it is your philosophy I abhore and I don't know who in the hell you are.

Your philosophy advocating the oppression of individual liberties to satisfy the greater good is evil and obscene. I fully understand that you do not 'get it', but most every one else on this forum understands exactly what I am saying.

You are the one who doesn't understand the basic nature of we humans.

Amicus

 

[cjh]

~~~

I tried earlier to depersonalize my commentary as it is your philosophy I abhore and I don't know who in the hell you are.

Your philosophy advocating the oppression of individual liberties to satisfy the greater good is evil and obscene. I fully understand that you do not 'get it', but most every one else on this forum understands exactly what I am saying.

You are the one who doesn't understand the basic nature of we humans.

Amicus

you're deceiving yourself.

some agree with you.

many do not.

and despite your insistence otherwise, you're neither the arbiter of good and evil, nor do you definitively state basic human nature to the exclusion of competing observations and theories.

 

[rosco rathbone]

~~~

I tried earlier to depersonalize my commentary as it is your philosophy I abhore and I don't know who in the hell you are.

Your philosophy advocating the oppression of individual liberties to satisfy the greater good is evil and obscene. I fully understand that you do not 'get it', but most every one else on this forum understands exactly what I am saying.

You are the one who doesn't understand the basic nature of we humans.

Amicus

Retract that uncalled for personal insult. I didn't come here to suffer insult and impudence. Criticize my philosophy all you like, call it evil if you want, but do so in a spirit of collegiality and gentlemanly good fellowship or to the devil with you.

 

[rosco rathbone]

i read that post and heard, "uncle."

you've a great mind for ideas. i enjoy it when you share it.

Thanks. I'm just an intelligent layman, attempting to piece together a world view from books of theory and universal Law.