Wilfull Disobedience vs Accidental Disobedience

[urh0227]

Something I have been musing about today....in your PYL/pyl relationship are "wilful disobedience" and "accidental disobedience" viewed and punished the same way or different ways

For e.g I would class wilful disobedience as a pyl being told not not to cum until the next time they see a PYL but them masturbating and cumming anyway knowing its not permitted as opposed to accidental disobedience being a standing rule is that the pyl has to ask permission to cum however the PYL is f*cking the pyl and the pyl asks permission to cum however before being given permission they cum due to stimulation.

How do you view it in your relationship - is cumming without permission just that regardless of circumstances or are circumstances important to you

Would love to hear what you think on the 'big idea' not just the e.g

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Something I have been musing about today....in your PYL/pyl relationship are "wilful disobedience" and "accidental disobedience" viewed and punished the same way or different ways

For e.g I would class wilful disobedience as a pyl being told not not to cum until the next time they see a PYL but them masturbating and cumming anyway knowing its not permitted as opposed to accidental disobedience being a standing rule is that the pyl has to ask permission to cum however the PYL is f*cking the pyl and the pyl asks permission to cum however before being given permission they cum due to stimulation.

How do you view it in your relationship - is cumming without permission just that regardless of circumstances or are circumstances important to you

Would love to hear what you think on the 'big idea' not just the e.g

Accidents happen. Any punishment should take into account that, and greater care should be taken in future. But they still happen.

Wilful disobedience calls for a sit down discussion about the state of the relationship, because there's something wrong somewhere. Wiful disobedience pretty much goes against the grain of a submissive (provided the thing they're being wiful about isn't something stupid like 'step in front of a moving bus' in case that clarification is needed, heh) and therefore my guess would be that there's something they're not getting. Or they just want out. Or something. Either way, it needs discussing.

 

[ecstaticsub]

There is absolutely a difference between willful disobedience and accidental.

If I am told to do something and it honestly slips my mind and I offer to attend to it immediately or apologize then i may get a stern word or two but he won't be angry. Of course this will depend on the circumstance but he realizes I am human.

On the other hand if I am told to do something and I say "No", I may as well be asking to be released. If I don't say no, but just ignore the request/order without discussing it with him he would be extremely disappointed and hurt. I can't imagine doing this at this point in my relationship.

i know what is really important to him and for those things I make sure I never willfully or accidentally disobey.

 

[GrimsPet]

Accidents happen. Any punishment should take into account that, and greater care should be taken in future. But they still happen.

Wilful disobedience calls for a sit down discussion about the state of the relationship, because there's something wrong somewhere. Wiful disobedience pretty much goes against the grain of a submissive (provided the thing they're being wiful about isn't something stupid like 'step in front of a moving bus' in case that clarification is needed, heh) and therefore my guess would be that there's something they're not getting. Or they just want out. Or something. Either way, it needs discussing.

I agree with these sentiments.

I am in an LDR. For right now 1500 miles away from Master I'm allowed to touch myself and cum etc when I need to. When I have been physically with him in the past I am not allowed to cum unless I have his permission or he physically says to me, "I want you to cum this time Pet." Or some version of that.

In the past Master and I discussed disobedience. I fully know disobedience will get me punished, or at the very least get me a very stern verbal reprimand.

We had discussed at one point that he expected me to disobey him if he had asked me to do something and it turned out that if I did what he asked something bad might come of it that he didn't forsee, or if it would bring some kind of harm to either of us and he didn't realize it. He told me to never be afraid to speak up and let him know if something he asked was wrong or if something he asked of me or expected of me was just to much to do. So far I've never had to speak up and willfully disobey for any of those above listed reasons.

He's still learning his role and he expects to make mistakes. He expects that I will make mistakes too and depending on the degree of the mistake or the act of disobedience, that determines my punishment.

Ultimately we both have to be happy, and communication about disobedience and what is expected of both him and I in the relationship is a complete MUST.

 

[wicked woman]

Absolutely a difference.

We even negotiated that if I was given an order and hesitated, didn't follow it immediately, because I sometimes needed a bit ot time to process it, that it wouldn't be considered disobedience and would not be punished, unless it was obviously willful disobedience. A case of taking what I'd learned about myself and negotiating it into our relationship.

 

[anneski]

Oh a total difference, why wouldn't there be?

Though, I do have to say that also varies according to the relationship....

I have only had 2 D/s relationships, one of them a brief interlude to this one, and in THAT relationship wilful disobedience was actually enjoyed and punished accordingly because he enjoyed giving punishment... accidental disobedience was understood and forgiven totally.

In my current relationship I've never been wilfully disobedient - and have no desire to be. I've answered back cheekily - but that's being ME, not being disobedient, and that is punished, but it doesn't disappoint him. Whereas if I were delibrately disobedient I would disappoint him, and THAT would be the worst punishment I could have.

If I don't immediately comply with his instructions because I am unsure about how to achieve what he's ordered I do, that's fine, he doesn't punish that because he understands that isn't disobedience, but me needing clarification, guidance. Likewise if family matters interfere and dictate I have to do something contrary to his orders, that is not viewed as disobedience, although maybe some would clarify it as 'accidental disobedience'

 

[urh0227]

Oh a total difference, why wouldn't there be?

The reason I ask as part of one of my tasks I have to do research and explore different dynamics and I found a few blogs and websites where in their relationships all disobedience was punished the same way regardless of whether wilful or accidental....to me there was a big difference but I was wondering if this was common or not...tis all.....

 

[switchbitch]

my response is going to sound somewhat strange, I would actually expect to be punished more for an accident that I would for a deliberate disobedience. Accidental disobedience means that I am not trying hard enough and I have failed him, deliberate disobedience would only ever occur if there was a very very good reason (like a safety issue or life getting in the way or something that I had no control over) and he would understand.

 

[anneski]

The reason I ask as part of one of my tasks I have to do research and explore different dynamics and I found a few blogs and websites where in their relationships all disobedience was punished the same way regardless of whether wilful or accidental....to me there was a big difference but I was wondering if this was common or not...tis all.....

Ah right, ok, I see now. I have known of relationships like that too - tho I find most of that sort to be pretty toxic, sadly.

 

[Lilac_Sky]

Mistress knows how hard i try to always obey her. The thought of deliberately disobeying her is completely foreign to me. If i did deliberately disobey, i would expect to be punished quite severely (though it hasn't happened yet, so i'm not even sure what the punishment might look like).

Unfortunately i have accidentally disobeyed a few times. Mistress's disappointment is the worst punishment i could face. In those times, Mistress usually gives me a stern look, a harsh word, or a tug to my hair.

But i also see a third type of "disobedience" and it mirrors some of the other responses here. There have been times when i have been given a direction and want to follow it, but either because of not knowing how to accomplish it, or because it is something i haven't done yet and am "frozen" with insecurity then Mistress supports me. She might break the task down into smaller pieces, or she talks to me about what is causing the difficulty.

I think that Mistress's confidence that i would not deliberately disobey makes it easy for her to support me when an unusual circumstance does arise that leads to me not obeying.

 

[the captians wench]

I was once told that trying and failing to accomplish the goal was better than not attempting it at all. This came about because he asked me to do a task that he knew would be impossible for me to accomplish the way he instructed with out causing serious repercussions for myself and another. So I didn't attempt anything. I had told him that I wouldn't be able to do it, he said "I'm sure you'll think of something" and I took that a completely different way than he meant it.

He said, to try and fail shows a desire to obey; to not do anything at all showed disrespect.

Other than that, he's pretty laid back when it comes to rules. As long as I talk to him about it, try to accomplish or at least come up with a substitute for the task, then he's satisfied.

 

[eastern sun]

Living together 24/7 with kids in the house changes the whole nature of "obedience." It's messy and complicated and it changes our expectations of what's possible.

For that reason, punishment occurs when it suits his purposes. Who cares what the reasons for my actions - or inaction - were? There will always be reasons. Hopefully, he'll be sensitive to all the circumstances in play. But what if he isn't?

Why do you want your PYL to be more accepting of one form of disobedience than another? Because you are concerned about your ability to control yourself? or outside circumstances? What if his/her punishing actions change your ability to control yourself? Help you learn that you can control things you thought you couldn't? That can be fun. Really fun.

What happens when you hit a wall, and no matter how hard you try you just can't do it? Or won't do it? Great. That's good information, for both of you. Punishment may be completely ineffective, and it doesn't matter what s/he does. Then you both get to work with that. S/he may keep expressing displeasure no matter how hard you try - or don't try. You may never change. S/he may never change.

Good. That's when partnerships get tested. It doesn't mean anyone failed. It just means that's what you are. Or that's where you're stuck until something somehow moves - maybe years from now. And that's a good thing to know. You can work with information like that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The reason I ask as part of one of my tasks I have to do research and explore different dynamics and I found a few blogs and websites where in their relationships all disobedience was punished the same way regardless of whether wilful or accidental....to me there was a big difference but I was wondering if this was common or not...tis all.....

That's probably part of why you were set to do this research... Now you have a question for you and your master to discuss and decide on.

 

[subish2009]

I don't think I've ever been truly willfully disobedient. Both my husband and my online D enjoy playful disobedience...it's in my nature to be a smart-ass, to be pretty sarcastic, to toe the line...and they're pretty fond of that tendency.

We don't use real punishments...their displeasure alone is enough to make me learn any lesson related to accidental disobedience. I have such a strong desire to please them, a pathological fear of being abandoned, and pretty fragile self-esteem, so the slightest hint of disappointment from them pretty much kills me.

But we all enjoy "funishments" and do not enjoy their random deployment. I'm feisty and strong-willed and stubborn by nature, so that tends to give them both plenty of opportunity to cheerfully get all heavy-handed and intimidating and remind me of my place, my vulnerability, and their dominance. Works perfectly for all involved.

There used to be an active brat thread on this board, in which I tried to explain my fine line of bratting out in a way that was not disrespectful to my D-types. I used to struggle with how difficult it was to try to explain to anyone not involved in my dynamic. Over my couple of years here I've learned that it doesn't matter if anyone else gets it. It works for us, both emotionally and sexually, in a huge way. That's all that matters.

 

[midwestyankee]

I don't think I've ever been truly willfully disobedient. Both my husband and my online D enjoy playful disobedience...it's in my nature to be a smart-ass, to be pretty sarcastic, to toe the line...and they're pretty fond of that tendency.

We don't use real punishments...their displeasure alone is enough to make me learn any lesson related to accidental disobedience. I have such a strong desire to please them, a pathological fear of being abandoned, and pretty fragile self-esteem, so the slightest hint of disappointment from them pretty much kills me.

But we all enjoy "funishments" and do not enjoy their random deployment. I'm feisty and strong-willed and stubborn by nature, so that tends to give them both plenty of opportunity to cheerfully get all heavy-handed and intimidating and remind me of my place, my vulnerability, and their dominance. Works perfectly for all involved.

There used to be an active brat thread on this board, in which I tried to explain my fine line of bratting out in a way that was not disrespectful to my D-types. I used to struggle with how difficult it was to try to explain to anyone not involved in my dynamic. Over my couple of years here I've learned that it doesn't matter if anyone else gets it. It works for us, both emotionally and sexually, in a huge way. That's all that matters.

Bolded for truth.

 

[Lilac_Sky]

So would forgetting to do a particular chore constitute willful or accidental disobedience?

Might that distinction depend on whether you were very busy that day, or just procrastinating, or would they be treated the same?

Perhaps there is room for other categories, such as negligent disobedience?

In my mind, there is room for as many categories as the PYL and pyl determine (or in my relationship, as many categories as Mistress determines ). But we don't have a book with chapters of different examples of disobedience and their appropriate consequences. As you say, the distinctions very much depend on the context. But that also depends on the specific dynamic of the relationship .... for some PYL's any example of their commands or expectations not being met is seen as disobedience and would be punished accordingly ... and if that is the dynamic between a PYL and pyl and they are happy with that ... then that is good too!

 

[FurryFury]

This is something I need as well. Time to process certain things before doing them. Not always an issue but at times it is.

As an aside: (The fine line between what I find difficult to process and do and what I find easy to do or impossible is where my strongest kink needs are too.) Back to what you said:

Just like I need time to process before being able to talk about certain things. It doesn't mean I'm lying as some have said or avoiding sharing, I just sometimes need time.

FF

Absolutely a difference.

We even negotiated that if I was given an order and hesitated, didn't follow it immediately, because I sometimes needed a bit ot time to process it, that it wouldn't be considered disobedience and would not be punished, unless it was obviously willful disobedience. A case of taking what I'd learned about myself and negotiating it into our relationship.

 

[Netzach]

I don't do punishment, but I do try to be a force of good influence.

If it's a chronic ongoing "forgetting" then it seems to me getting to the root of it might be a good idea.

Is there a tool or process missing from getting the thing done?

Is there a reluctance behind it?

Is there an attention problem on the part of the sub beyond ordinary? (such people require more tools and processes, if punishment cured ADHD no one would have it)

If it's a one-off, then forget it. Spank each other, don't or whatever floats your boats, but if it keeps happening correction probably involves more.