A curious little thing.

[Kolrin]

I read quite a lot here and elsewhere and I'm a sucker for well thought through worlds. Just one thing occurred to me recently. In most stories I read the center of power always is in the USA.

Be it NonHuman, Sci-Fi&Fantasy, or Novels and Novellas, if there is a clear cut center of power in the story, it is near always in the USA.

I'm not complaining and of course any author can do what he wants in his world, I just simply believe there should be an explanation as to why it is there and not Europe, as most stories claim directly or indirectly to take place in the real world.

Looking at history, America as the center of power is a recent and seemingly brief episode. The rise of the US started in WWII, as the English couldn't cope with Nazi Germany and only thanks to the US involvement was Hitler defeated. Before that, the center of power was definitely the Empire and thus England. Going back further we have France, Spain, Portugal and Holland to varying degrees, going back to the time before America was even discovered.

So the question I have is simple. Why would any powerful organization or body move to America, away from the center of power, where they could manipulate politics in their favor, as any such body would have to do to survive. Not story specific, but in general terms. Why do so many authors automatically say the center of power in their stories is in the US and has been for centuries.

Any and all theories are welcome, but I do ask for at least some serious discussion.

Thanks to all who contribute productively.

 

[PennLady]

My gut answer is: most writers on the site are American. It's easier to write what you know, so they set the stories here. I've set all my stories in the US, whether I specify a place or not, because I don't know any other places well enough. The only story I set elsewhere was set in Montreal, and I kept details minimal.

For historical stories, I'd say much the same still holds. I've had courses in the histories of various places, but the US is probably the only one I'd trust myself to write about to any great degree. That might depend on the time period, and I would be willing to research, but I'd still likely go to the US.

As for sci-fi specifically, I remember reading a while ago (no idea how I could find the source on this, it was pre-internet, I think that for many writers, if it was sf, it had to be US-centered. An example was a story by a German writer that had all American characters. Now this has changed a lot, I'm sure, as other countries have caught up in many scientific areas. However, the US had a major growth spurt scientifically after WWII, so that probably plays into it as well.

 

[sr71plt]

In David Wingrove's "Chung Kuo" series it's China. I thought that was interesting.

I would agree that a lot of authors don't think sci fi/fantasy enough. I think they set it in North America because, as Penn Lady notes, most of the writers are American and because this is the known world to them, so the one to build a contrast to. That would also mean, though, that they are insular themselves--and already behind the eight ball on sci fi/fantasy.

 

[SydneyBlake]

Ditto what PennLady said

Honestly, it seems like a no-brainer to me. Write what you know. Americans know American culture and geography and history best.

But my hat is off to anyone who can create a whole new world like SF/fantasy. I'm not that creative.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Speaking (or writing) for myself, most of my first person stories are set in the United States because I live in the US. I have a few set in Japan during the late 1950's when I was in the Air Force and stationed there and some set in The Philippines, where I have been with my wife.

I have third person stories set in England, such as the Angel Jones series and a few others, and one set in Ireland during the English colonization, several centuries ago.

Most of my stories don't have any particuar setting. I describe some people having sex and enjoying themselves, and make no mention of locale. Unless I say so otherwise, I was thinking of the US when I wrote them, but there is no reference to any city or nation.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

In David Wingrove's "Chung Kuo" series it's China. I thought that was interesting.

I would agree that a lot of authors don't think sci fi/fantasy enough. I think they set it in North America because, as Penn Lady notes, most of the writers are American and because this is the known world to them, so the one to build a contrast to. That would also mean, though, that they are insular themselves--and already behind the eight ball on sci fi/fantasy.

Actually, in "Chung Kuo" the story is set in a future where China has conquered the entire globe and rewritten history to make it appear that China had always been the preeminent global power. Most of the story, however, takes place in Europe, and it is the European T'ang (Li Yuan) who is at the center of the story.

This fact only reinforces Penn Lady's point, however. Wingrove is a Brit, so it makes sense that the story is centered in Northern Europe.

 

[3113]

This is an Erotica Site

Beyond the fact that most of the writers here are from the U.S. and America-centric, is the fact that most of the writers here have absorbed American movies and televisions (talk about a central power), and tend to take their cues from such things--meaning stereotypes/archetypes. American movies and television are unapologetically America-centric, barely acknowledging that the rest of the world exits (heck, they barely acknowledge certain states exist, that races other than Caucasians exist, that there's this whole other nation between the U.S. and Alaska, and that Africa is not a country).

In addition to personal biases and false assumptions brainwashed into these writers by what they read and watch, there is also the fact that they are writing up their erotic fantasies. This means that they want to get to the juicy bits as fast as they can. Which means they go for the shorthand stuff, like America being the power base, rather than trying to really come up with something original which would take time and effort to create--and force them to hold off writing and posting those juicy bits.

A LOT of time and effort to create if one is a serious science fiction writer. But the serious sci-fi that gets written up by authors here probably isn't what they'd post on this website where people care more about getting to that tentacle sex rather than the fact that the U.S. economy collapsed in 2020 along with China, and thanks to droughts and other severe climate changes the only surviving world power is now Kazakhstan.

That's science fiction. And when a writer creates such a future, he/she works very very hard on it. They research the country, the politics, the climate, the culture. Then they project into the future not just of that place, but what has happened all around the rest of the world. They create their own encyclopedia of the future. dress, economy, science, technology, weapons, etiquette, etc. This would, I think, explain for itself why you're not seeing any such sci-fi published here. Anyone who is doing this much work is trying to get it published and read by those who will appreciate it, not post it here free, a place where readers are likely to skip it all in order to get to the wank part.

 

[mynameisben]

Beyond the fact that most of the writers here are from the U.S. and America-centric, is the fact that most of the writers here have absorbed American movies and televisions (talk about a central power), and tend to take their cues from such things--meaning stereotypes/archetypes. American movies and television are unapologetically America-centric, barely acknowledging that the rest of the world exits (heck, they barely acknowledge certain states exist, that races other than Caucasians exist, that there's this whole other nation between the U.S. and Alaska, and that Africa is not a country).

In addition to personal biases and false assumptions brainwashed into these writers by what they read and watch, there is also the fact that they are writing up their erotic fantasies. This means that they want to get to the juicy bits as fast as they can. Which means they go for the shorthand stuff, like America being the power base, rather than trying to really come up with something original which would take time and effort to create--and force them to hold off writing and posting those juicy bits.

A LOT of time and effort to create if one is a serious science fiction writer. But the serious sci-fi that gets written up by authors here probably isn't what they'd post on this website where people care more about getting to that tentacle sex rather than the fact that the U.S. economy collapsed in 2020 along with China, and thanks to droughts and other severe climate changes the only surviving world power is now Kazakhstan.

That's science fiction. And when a writer creates such a future, he/she works very very hard on it. They research the country, the politics, the climate, the culture. Then they project into the future not just of that place, but what has happened all around the rest of the world. They create their own encyclopedia of the future. dress, economy, science, technology, weapons, etiquette, etc. This would, I think, explain for itself why you're not seeing any such sci-fi published here. Anyone who is doing this much work is trying to get it published and read by those who will appreciate it, not post it here free, a place where readers are likely to skip it all in order to get to the wank part.

I read your post, 3113. It's kinda long, so really, I just sort of skimmed it. It must be good because of all the words and stuff. But I'm disappointed there was no wank part.

 

[sr71plt]

Actually, in "Chung Kuo" the story is set in a future where China has concurred the entire globe and rewritten history to make it appear that China had always been the preeminent global power. Most of the story, however, takes place in Europe, and it is the European T'ang (Li Yuan) who is at the center of the story.

This fact only reinforces Penn Lady's point, however. Wingrove is a Brit, so it makes sense that the story is centered in Northern Europe.

Well, yes. But the issue was being American centric, wasn't it? Despite what you posted, the series is still China centric. It says so in the Title: Chung Kuo = "Middle Kingdom" = "China"

Yes, Penn Lady is right the Wingrove being British responds to the series not being America centered--as it responds to what I've posted about the proclivities of American writers.


The concept "writing what you know" and "writing sci fi/fantasy" seems pretty contradictory to me. It doesn't take all that much effort, given google, to get enough of the base of another "world" outside America as a jumping off place for either sci fi or fantasy. I think the America centric issue is more a case of not knowing much beyond your isolated world--and not particuarly caring to--than fulfilling any traditional "rule" of writing from what you are grounded in. Sci fi and fantasy should be about breaking those bonds.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Well, yes. But the issue was being American centric, wasn't it?

True enough. However, the consensus explanation for that observation is that most of the authors are American and are "writing what they know." An equally valid corollary is that non-American authors generally set their stories outside the U.S., once again "writing what they know."

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Writing erotica is already stepping out of the bounds of what I know (I barely remember what sex feels like ), so I shall be sure to set a story in Denmark, where I have never been

 

[sr71plt]

True enough. However, the consensus explanation for that observation is that most of the authors are American and are "writing what they know." An equally valid corollary is that non-American authors generally set their stories outside the U.S., once again "writing what they know."

China was my masters area of study. Wingrove, the Brit, was pretty well grounded in things Chinese in his "Chung Kuo" series. There aren't too many countries/continents/cultures as insular as (U.S.) Americans (maybe Australia?), so I'll stick with American writers, in general, being more stuck in their backyards than most others.

But maybe it isn't as much where the writer's head is as where the perceived market is. American readers are no more worldly than American writers. Maybe sci fi/fantasy is America based as much because of who the targeted readers/buyers are as who the writers are.

This thread doesn't really provide the basis of a "consensus" for anything, does it? That too would be a highly insular view.

 

[PennLady]

I set my stuff in the US because as I said, it's what I know. Not that I even specify a city most times; my hockey stories set in DC are an exception. but that's b/c I lived there for fifteen years, so I know the area and am comfortable writing about it.

SR is right that Google and other internet resources make research a lot easier, but then you need the time to do it. Right now, I have barely time to write, let alone research anything.

When it comes to sf, though, I think slightly different rules apply. I have read sf stories set in other places -- if I could find it, I remember an early cyber-punkish short set in Bangladesh, I think. HG Wells certainly set his stuff in England. One of the things I love about Torchwood, the BBC TV series, is that it centers in Cardiff, Wales (yes, I know the latest series is about to put the characters in the US). Doctor Who, in its latest incarnation, tends to set most of its Earth-bound stories in England as well. It is nice to see the center of attention change.

A lot of sf, especially cyberpunk-type, may be set in the US but there's a definite Chinese or Japanese feel, as in those stories, those countries came to be the center of power. Look at Blade Runner (aka "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?") and Firefly (which wasn't set in the US, but had an American crew, let's be honest). Neal Stephenson, as I recall, has a lot of Asian influence, if not settings, in his books. (Freaking big books, too.)

And look at a lot of Japanese anime -- most of the characters don't look at all Japanese. Check out Speed Racer, or Battle of the Planets, or even Bakugan and Yu-Gi-Oh. What I've read and been told over the years is that this is partly because after WWII, Japan felt a huge collective guilt, and hence the characters looked Caucasian. Even more recent -- look at Spirited Away, the fantasy animated movie by Miyazaki. The main character is named Chihiro, but she doesn't look Asian at all.

So a lot of US-centered, or US-looking, sf/fantasy is in fact not done by Americans.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

China was my masters area of study. Wingrove, the Brit, was pretty well grounded in things Chinese in his "Chung Kuo" series.

I don't doubt that Wingrove was spot on in his portrayal of Chinese culture. The series would have been far less interesting if he had been guessing.

There aren't too many countries/continents/cultures as insular as (U.S.) Americans (maybe Australia?), so I'll stick with American writers, in general, being more stuck in their backyards than most others.

I agree with your premise, but I don't think the conclusion necessarily follows. Peter F. Hamilton, another Brit, also writes science fiction that leans toward a British influenced interpretation of the future. On the other hand, Dan Simmons--an American--has a series that assumes Vatican control of the future. Anecdotal evidence is not going to resolve this issue.

Sticking to stories on this site, I find that most American authors set their stories in the US. Most British authors set their stories in the UK. Most Indian authors set their stories in India. There are always exceptions, but the pattern is fairly consistent. It shouldn't be surprising that speculative fiction writers do the same.

This thread doesn't really provide the basis of a "consensus" for anything, does it? That too would be a highly insular view.

Beyond what is on this thread? Of course not. Yet nearly every person who has posted has cited the same theory in describing the same result. Anyone can see that there is a consensus among those who have posted to this thread thus far.

Well, yes. But the issue was being American centric, wasn't it? Despite what you posted, the series is still China centric. It says so in the Title: Chung Kuo = "Middle Kingdom" = "China"

That is an oversimplification. The vast majority of the characters across all seven books are not Chinese. The main antagonist is European--more or less. Most of the action takes place in Northern Europe, and to a lesser extent North America. Throughout most of the story the conflict is between the Europeans and their Chinese conquerors. This story is no more Chinese-centric than a story set in occupied France during WWII, where most of the characters were French and the conflict centered around the attempt to oust the Germans, would be considered German-centric.

 

[3113]

I read your post, 3113. It's kinda long, so really, I just sort of skimmed it. It must be good because of all the words and stuff. But I'm disappointed there was no wank part.

LOL! I'm sorry, Ben. Next time I'll make sure to put the Wank part first so you don't have to read the rest to get to it.

The concept "writing what you know" and "writing sci fi/fantasy" seems pretty contradictory to me.

I'm in total agreement, however I *suspect* that a more accurate way of saying it would be to "write what your readers know." Readers do have comfort zones and many writers won't venture from those for fear of losing readers (as well as liking their comfort zones themselves). For example, the heavy bias for having a pre-industrial European setting for fantasies as compared to, say, Asia or Africa.

Certainly, there ARE fantasies that eschew "Lord of the Rings" and it's Eurocentric setting, but Eurocentric fantasies romanticizing times of kings and queens are very popular. Readers like 'em and so writers write 'em. Likewise, I think, with sci-fi writers who go for America-centric sci-fi.

It doesn't take all that much effort, given google, to get enough of the base of another "world" outside America as a jumping off place for either sci fi or fantasy.

Again, I agree totally. You are absolutely right. But it does take some effort, and a lot of "writers" are very lazy and/or just not that thoughtful. They want to tell their story, especially the part where they detail their erotic fantasy, not spend time googling for a fresh idea. Personally, I'd be happy if they'd just stop being lazy and started being more thoughtful about plot and characters. I read a fantasy here where sex with the princess could get a man killed, yet the story has the hero (a stranger in a strange land) hanging out at the palace, lusting for the princess for months before the princess' kindly and thoughtful and presumably intelligent confident decides to warn him of this. At that point, there's no reason to complain that the setting is uninspired and cliché. Clearly this writer wants to write up their self-indulgent fantasy, not do any real work to make it original, thoughtful or even logical.

Which I think is the ultimate point here. That this "curious thing" is no so curious if we remember that most of the writers here are writing up their self-indulgent, personal sexual fantasies, not striving to create a really good and original story.

 

[Handley_Page]

LOL! I'm sorry, Ben. Next time I'll make sure to put the Wank part first so you don't have to read the rest to get to it.


That this "curious thing" is no so curious if we remember that most of the writers here are writing up their self-indulgent, personal sexual fantasies, not striving to create a really good and original story.

Finger firmly on the Pulse there, I reckon.

 

[Weird Harold]

True enough. However, the consensus explanation for that observation is that most of the authors are American and are "writing what they know." An equally valid corollary is that non-American authors generally set their stories outside the U.S., once again "writing what they know."

As a long-time reader if Science Fiction, I think everyoneis forgetting the power of the marketplace. Until recently, only American publishers would buy Sicenice Fiction stories. That pretty much limited financial viability to authors who wrote in English; basically Americal and English speakers.

There were a few, like Stanislaw Lem, who broke through the language barrier and the suppression of science fiction and fantasy by communist governments to becine established in the American market, but for themostpart the market has been dominated by American publishers and English speaking authors. The "Golden Age" was domimated by English and american settings.

It has only been in the last twenty years or so that much Science Fiction has entered the market from outside the English language and little of what has made the crossing reflects the communist mindset (or other non-democracy mindsets) -- in part because the Science Fiction is still dominated by American publishers.

 

[sr71plt]

As a long-time reader if Science Fiction, I think everyoneis forgetting the power of the marketplace. Until recently, only American publishers would buy Sicenice Fiction stories. That pretty much limited financial viability to authors who wrote in English; basically Americal and English speakers.

Ummm, I did mention up the line that it might just be writing to the buying audience.

 

[SydneyBlake]

Google and other internet resources make research a lot easier, but then you need the time to do it. Right now, I have barely time to write, let alone research anything .

Thank you for bringing up that point. I've already been asked if I am a health professional, I presume because I've successfully portrayed a doctor in my story. That kind of research, while still easier with the internet, still takes a hell of a lot of time!

If anyone is bothered by my Americentric viewpoint, then write your own fucking story.

 

[PennLady]

Thank you for bringing up that point. I've already been asked if I am a health professional, I presume because I've successfully portrayed a doctor in my story. That kind of research, while still easier with the internet, still takes a hell of a lot of time!

If anyone is bothered by my Americentric viewpoint, then write your own fucking story.

LOL The last part makes me laugh.

I took an SF course in college (really!) and at one point we were discussing a story called "The Cold Equations." I had issues with certain things in it, and during the talk the prof said pretty much what you did, Syd - if you don't like a story, then write the one you want. Maybe that's what sort of got me started.

It is funny what people guess about you b/c of your writing. Many people, after I wrote "Who Cares What I Wear?", said I must have gone through a similar experience. Truth is, I haven't, but I'm so pleased I was able to get the feelings and emotions right that they thought so.

Hmmmm. I could write my own Cold Equations, I guess... be awfully short if I did.

 

[3113]

On "Cold Equations"

I took an SF course in college (really!) and at one point we were discussing a story called "The Cold Equations." I had issues with certain things in it, and during the talk the prof said pretty much what you did, Syd - if you don't like a story, then write the one you want.

[minor threadjack] I actually love "Cold Equations." It's a very famous story, though, as all such sci-fi stories of that time, it is of its time. Meaning when you see women in the stories they're there for one of three reasons (or a combo of those reasons): sex objects (always #1), something to be rescued (so the hero has a goal), and/or so there is someone to explain the science to. Sometimes the Jock hero is there to ask about the science, but most male writers were of the opinion that only girls were ignorant of science So the writer would put in a girl to say, "Gosh, professor, how does it work?" and that allowed him to offer readers a cool science lesson.

"Cold Equations" uses the girl for the rescue and ignorance reasons. But its "genius" is that it puts a twist on both that was uncommon for 99% of the science fiction stories of its time, and therefore shows that sci-fi, considered juvenile entertainment at the time, had the potential to be both adult and literary.

Twist #1, the hero is not able to rescue the girl, however much he wants to. And, twist #2, the science that is explained to her doesn't make her breathe with awe and wonder, but presents to her a hard reality. From the one-dimensional girl she would have been in any other such story, she develops through the stages of grief that anyone has over their own impending death to a maturity (Two dimensions, but that's one better than most girls in these stories). Likewise, the "hero" has to develop through his stages from the cool man of action to one who feels deeply and can't take action (do anything to save her). The usual implied sex of these pulpish stories is rendered impotent in this one.

Most wonderfully about this story is that, however contrived or unlikely the situation, it presents a study of human connection usually only seen in war stories. The intimacy these two strangers have in their brief time together is profound and due entirely to their tragic situation.

"Cold Equations" is what it is--and what it is was very, very important to the development of Science Fiction as a genre. Which was to emphasize that if writers of that genre were going to really explore advances in science and technology and their affects on humanity, then they were going to have to explore the unavoidable tragedies of the equations that ruled such science and technologies. Also, that doing so could elevate the stories if writer would only be brave enough. This is why, for all the problems it has because of when it was written, it still ranks as a one of the greats for those of us who are aficionados of the science fiction genre. It was one of those early steps sci-fi was taking to show readers and critics what it could be[/minor threadjack]

 

[SydneyBlake]

I appreciate the literature lesson!

Kind of reminds me of the old westerns, too, without the science, of course. Women were marginalized as sex objects and damsels in distress. That's why I love stories that turn that stereotype on its head.

 

[PennLady]

What bothered me about "The Cold Equations" (which was made into a not-too-bad TV movie if I recall, on SciFi) was in fact the idea that there was this whole debate about what to do because the stowaway was a woman. If it had been a boy, even a 17yo boy, it wouldn't have been a story.

Now, I know that this story was from the 50s/60s or whatever, and so of course the dilemma was b/c she was a woman. It still didn't sit right with me, as it didn't seem fair.

Part of me did like, in a weird way, the fact that the girl had to go. I was glad to see that some amazing loophole didn't save her. It was just the stuff leading up to that.

 

[3113]

Small rant

What bothered me about "The Cold Equations" (which was made into a not-too-bad TV movie if I recall, on SciFi) was in fact the idea that there was this whole debate about what to do because the stowaway was a woman. If it had been a boy, even a 17yo boy, it wouldn't have been a story.

It wouldn't have been that story--but you're wrong that it being a girl makes for any debate, and in your assumption that if the stowaway hadn't been a girl there would have been no story. The first thing the pilot thinks on discovering that he has a stowaway is:

There could be no alternative — but it required a few moments of conditioning for even an EDS pilot to prepare himself to walk across the room and coldly, deliberately, take the life of a man he had yet to meet.

Even if this is an adult man (and the story implies that such stowaways are typically male and criminal sorts) the pilot doesn't find this easy to do. So it doesn't matter who the stowaway is, there would be a story. We will grant, however, that the writer stacks the deck with a teenaged girl. We will also agree that the situation is contrived and full of holes, which critics have detailed at length. This story, in fact, has a lot of problems. But I don't think your particular objection is one of those problems. If you re-read the story you'll find that there is never any debate about what's to be done. The only difference our pilot makes with this stowaway (as compared to what he'd do with a grown man) is to hold off as long as he can and give her a chance to write letters and say good-bye to her brother. I rather think he'd do the same if the stowaway had been an innocent teen boy, don't you?

Which is not to say that the writer could have switched out the girl for a boy without changing the effect of the story on readers. This story was written back when America was still in the shadow of WWII and had only just finished with the Korean War. America had seen many teen boys drafted or volunteering for war, and other dangerous missions. A teen boy onboard that ship might have been a tragedy, but readers would have expected him to be brave and die. Girls were for rescuing and saving, American popular culture and mindset said as much. So the writer gets two things by having it be a girl: first, he shocks his audience when she can't be saved, and second he makes the decision by the girl to willingly die seem far more brave. The writer also gets the most out of the pilot who has to deal with all this as the readers do. Hence, the story would not have had the impact it did on 1954 readers had it been a boy. This also hammers home the message that space travel isn't going to be all fun and adventure; it's also going to be brutal and unforgiving and require hard decisions.

[small rant]And the television version was dreadful. It decided to emphasize the bureaucratic stupidity that forced the girl to die so that the Pilot can expose it and make sure it never happens again. While this bureaucratic and engineering stupidity is one of the criticisms of the story, it really wasn't up to the writers (I feel) to try and "fix it" or use to to make the audience feel like the girl's death was not in vain. It erases the whole point of the hard decisions involved in exploration. DAMN PUSSIES! It's really sad and pathetic that modern writers, like those who mutilated the story for television, insist on treating audiences like babies. What? That ending would have been too mean and hard on your delicate viewers? Whoever made those changes to that television version of the story ought to be shoved out an airlock. [/small rant]

 

[PennLady]

3113 -- well, it's obviously been too long since I read that story. I should find it; I may still have the collection of stories it appeared in (along with "The Roads must Roll," by ... Bradbury? I liked that one). I never did see the TV movie, and based on your review, it sounds like they did indeed wuss out.

So, thanks for that, b/c if that is the case, I think I'd like the story better. No one pointed that out, as I recall, in my class.

It's funny, b/c I'm sure most people here know I like happy endings, and that most assuredly isn't. However, I'll take the right ending over a stuck-on happy one any day.