personality modification

[praefect]

Who here wants their PYL to change them, to become a better person?

Who here wants to change their pyl, to become a better person?

A thought that occurred to me a while back, and coming from me, is quite shocking. I'm someone who values change highly. Adapt or die. Grow or stagnate. Perfection is the end of growth, is death. Something to be strived for but never reached.

But then, it occurred to me, dealing with a woman who couldn't be more resistant to change if she was frozen in carbonite. There is value to traditionalism. There is a value to conservation and conservative attitudes. There is stability and security in the unchanging.

Coinciding with my believes that every fault is also a virtue, and every weakness is also a strength, that all traits we possess are double edged, I realized that we are all perfect already as we are, moving from one state of perfection to another in growth. But if that is the case, then growth itself becomes irrelevant.

The irony that this thought in itself is a sign of growth isn't lost on me. Through it I could accept the inability, or unwillingness, of someone else to, and it allowed me to accept them just as they were.

And that worked out great for us. It turns out, knowing she is accepted just as she is makes her very happy. And being very happy, well, that is a lot better for our relationship that her agreeing with me that Hairspray is the worst movie ever made, not the best.

I have a feeling a lot of frustration and resentment in relationships go back to this. That either someone isn't content with the change they want to see in someone else, or are not content with the lack of change they see in themselves, that there are expectations there that can't be met through outside forces, but only from within.

I'd be interested in other views on the subject of personality or behavior modification, and how, if you attempted it, it has worked out for you.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

I think there's a pretty significant difference between personality/behavior modification and encouraging your partner to be a better person.

IMO, becoming a "better person" entails a desired improvement on a flaw that causes personal strife, or what some people would call "personal growth". Adding more detail to our Personality Sculpture, so to speak. For example, I view my boyfriend's steadying influence on my pride and volatile temper to be helpful in my own development as an individual. I think this sort of influence is perfectly healthy. I'd venture to say it's even outright desirable in a relationship.

However, tailoring an individual away from their own innate inclinations is something different and, imo, unacceptable. I'm talking about forcing someone to change their tastes in music, adopt a new style of living, make drastic personality changes, etc...etc... Remaking their Personality Sculpture instead of developing it, if you will. I have noticed that some individuals do this on their own. I'm not sure what I think about this. As a strongly independent person, I simply do not understand such behavior and view it as a weakness of personal character. But I also acknowledge that my view could be clouded, and those who's lifestyle is as mutable as their dating lives could have perfectly justifiable reasons. And some could have unjustifiable reasons trying to cover for bigger psychological issues.

Either way, I think there is definitely a gray area as to what changes are what. I'd say it depends immensely on the individuals involved, although obviously a few areas are going to be consistently agreed upon. I'm pretty sure that everyone agrees that the ridiculous "women's bathroom makeover" you see so frequently stereotyped in sitcoms is over the line no one needs a bathroom that pink and fluffy *shudders*

EDIT: I realize that I did not answer this question specifically in a "BDSM context" as the OP might have intended. IMO, BDSM relationships are still relationships and this applies to them as well. I have the general stance that forcing someone to change against their will, or by manipulating their will, is a poor human interaction behavior.

 

[FurryFury]

You can't change anyone that isn't actively aware of things they want to change and working toward that.

You can demand, whine, encourage, demean, nag, manipulate, try to rescue but none of it means shit without a person that wants to be "helped" to change.

Trying to change people is one of the biggest fools errands ever. I prefer to accept people for who they are with no agenda to change them.

Sometimes however behavior I can not accept towards me or those I love occurs. If that doesn't become a "teachable" moment, then it becomes time to make distance from that person.

Some people I was born or they were born to be with me for life. I can't change that but if they are damaging to me or mine, emotional distance must occur to protect me and mine.

Other people I took into my life by my own will. They are people that generally lift me up as I do for them.

Each individual's health and happiness is up to them and them alone. I protect and guard mine.

I could go on. I won't at this time.

FF

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think the notion is incredibly, appallingly, presumptuous.

And the attempt is just about guaranteed to be hideously, appallingly destructive.

.. It turns out, knowing she is accepted just as she is makes her very happy. And being very happy, well, that is a lot better for our relationship that her agreeing with me that Hairspray is the worst movie ever made, not the best.

Was this a surprise to you?

*picks jaw up from the floor*

 

[HottieMama]

My Husdom does not wish to change me on a mental level. Not that I am perfect, but he accepts me for me in that way. Physically, he would like to remake me from head to toe. That's not what you are asking about so I will leave that alone. Personally, I would like to change him back into the person I met 4 years ago. Quite frankly, I do NOT like the person he has become both in regards to this lifestyle or in life. I realize though, that no amount of arguing, begging, pleading etc, is going to do that so I have two choices. Change myself, for my own sanity and comfort or leave the relationship. I struggle with what choice I am going to pick...

 

[praefect]

I think the notion is incredibly, appallingly, presumptuous.

And the attempt is just about guaranteed to be hideously, appallingly destructive.

Was this a surprise to you?

*picks jaw up from the floor*

There is a name for it. Pygmalion Project, or something like it, based on a greek legend that for once doesn't end in incest. I've been prone to it in the past. Like a person, change a person, no longer like the person. Presumptious? Absolutly. Destructive? Absolutly. But also very energetic and passionate, a constant challange and battle, as my partners tried to do the same with me. So, yes, I had to actually LEARN that other ways were possible

It's one of the pitfalls of the idealist. Nobody ever being good enough, living up to an impossible to reach standard.

 

[welkin]

I fail to comprehend OP.

No, we are not all perfect. You can be perfectly happy with who you are, but that doesn't mean you are perfect. There is always room to grow, to say otherwise I frankly find it quite arrogant. And no, not all weaknesses are strengths and all faults virtues -- seriously?! Try explain to me why my weakness -- sometimes I run away from problems and avoid confrontation -- is a strength. I find such blanket feel-good statements simply vacuous.

As for changes within a relationship, I think there will always be, regardless of bdsm or not. And one can try to make the changes for the better. Like the quote "You make me want to be a better person".

 

[seela]

I'm pretty fluid as a person and there are very few personality traits or interests, even opinions, that I consider being the deepest and truest core that really make me me. That leads to me often being one thing around my friends, one thing around my family and one thing around my boyfriend and still completely feeling like I'm myself. It's not really a question of wanting to be changed or wanting to change, it's just something that happens to me.

The change is clearest in the relationship with my boyfriend. I've adapted to his needs and his interests in the long run, but it's also something that happens in shorter cycles. It's happened both organically without neither of us really trying to change something, but it's also happened violently and with a lot of anger and resentment from both of our parts. From my part, because I wasn't happy with the desired change, from his part because I wasn't willing to change and he wasn't capable to inspire the change in me. We don't see resentment and anger necessarily as negative feelings always to be avoided, but rather just as another set of emotions we're allowed to have within our dynamic.

Sometimes the change my boyfriend expects of me makes me really sad and pissed off, sometimes it makes me feel happy, content and full of energy, but most of the time it doesn't make me feel anything particular. It's just the way our relationship works. I adapt to his needs, and this has taken us on some strange paths sometimes.

How about pyl changing their PYL to become a better person? This is something that I feel is often neglected in discussions, but it's also the flipside of the dynamic in my relationship. Does change, or personality modification, have to be active and aggressive and therefore pyls rarely actually change their PYLs? Or is it just rare, or not recognized, or not important, or not interesting? Or is it actually rare at all?

 

[Stella_Omega]

There is a name for it. Pygmalion Project, or something like it, based on a greek legend that for once doesn't end in incest. I've been prone to it in the past. Like a person, change a person, no longer like the person. Presumptious? Absolutly. Destructive? Absolutly. But also very energetic and passionate, a constant challange and battle, as my partners tried to do the same with me. So, yes, I had to actually LEARN that other ways were possible

It's one of the pitfalls of the idealist. Nobody ever being good enough, living up to an impossible to reach standard.

Bravo for learning!

It seems to have made you a happier person. Knowing that your idealism is in fact a personal flaw that will drive your loved ones away... that's gotta hurt.

it's worth mentioning that a) Pygmalion didn't approve of the "prostitution" he saw amongst the Cyprian upper-class women. and b) Pygmalion's beloved was an ivory statue, and not an actual full grown human being. One possible moral of the story is that some folk cannot handle the complexities of humanity, and would be happier with simulacra.

Forgive my acerbity. That journal post you made public was nauseating to me. I'm glad to know it's something that you're past.

 

[praefect]

I fail to comprehend OP.

No, we are not all perfect. You can be perfectly happy with who you are, but that doesn't mean you are perfect. There is always room to grow, to say otherwise I frankly find it quite arrogant. And no, not all weaknesses are strengths and all faults virtues -- seriously?! Try explain to me why my weakness -- sometimes I run away from problems and avoid confrontation -- is a strength. I find such blanket feel-good statements simply vacuous.

As for changes within a relationship, I think there will always be, regardless of bdsm or not. And one can try to make the changes for the better. Like the quote "You make me want to be a better person".

That is change that comes from within. I'm very big on that, myself, as I said in the OP. Both examples I used are about change that comes from outside of yourself. Something that I associate, within the context of BDSM, with the terms of behavior and personality modification. This is something sought both by subs and by doms, and I am not only aware, but hopeful that others have experiences to share that are not like my own.

You've described an action, but not really named the trait. Are we talking about cowardice? If we are, we are talking about fear. And if we are talking about fear, then we are talking about a trait that has not only value, but is required for base survival.

Are you a coward? Lets say you are, hypothetically. I would ask why. I would ask what are you protecting, what you are afraid of. I would wonder if it's because you are a very sensitive person. Sensitivity is worth protecting, has value to you and others, it allows you to form deep meaningful connections and read cues others are not aware of.
Are you not happy with this trait you possess? That would smell like perfectionism, both drive to great action, and reason for never ending discontent.

And so on, and so forth. Yes, that every fault is also a virtue is my belief. And that's all it is. I don't state it as fact, or objective truth. You are perfectly free to dismiss it as hogwash, but you'll have to explain to me how finding a way to be accepting in a universal matter is something arrogant

 

[eastern sun]

I am drawn to pygmalion relationships.

As an adolescent and young woman, I believed that I needed to fundamentally change my way of thinking and behaving (and I really did - I was an active addict and alcoholic). I just didn't have a clue what to do or how to do it, so if someone I was attracted to took me on as a project, I was an active and willing participant.

But those relationships were very painful. My partners never really liked me. They were always trying to create something they did like. And even if they saw glimpses of it in me, it wasn't lasting. And I was always getting "it" wrong.

And obviously I was caught up in looking for love where it wasn't offered without conditions.

Fast forward 25 years. . . . I'm sober a long time. And I still like pygmalion relationships. The difference is that the things that are being "changed" are very fluid and changeable in the first place. It isn't about becoming a different person with a different personality, it is about changing personas and social/sexual behaviors.

And that desire to change personas and explore different ways of behaving is a fundamental characteristic of my personality.

 

[praefect]

I'm pretty fluid as a person and there are very few personality traits or interests, even opinions, that I consider being the deepest and truest core that really make me me. That leads to me often being one thing around my friends, one thing around my family and one thing around my boyfriend and still completely feeling like I'm myself. It's not really a question of wanting to be changed or wanting to change, it's just something that happens to me.

The change is clearest in the relationship with my boyfriend. I've adapted to his needs and his interests in the long run, but it's also something that happens in shorter cycles. It's happened both organically without neither of us really trying to change something, but it's also happened violently and with a lot of anger and resentment from both of our parts. From my part, because I wasn't happy with the desired change, from his part because I wasn't willing to change and he wasn't capable to inspire the change in me. We don't see resentment and anger necessarily as negative feelings always to be avoided, but rather just as another set of emotions we're allowed to have within our dynamic.

Sometimes the change my boyfriend expects of me makes me really sad and pissed off, sometimes it makes me feel happy, content and full of energy, but most of the time it doesn't make me feel anything particular. It's just the way our relationship works. I adapt to his needs, and this has taken us on some strange paths sometimes.

How about pyl changing their PYL to become a better person? This is something that I feel is often neglected in discussions, but it's also the flipside of the dynamic in my relationship. Does change, or personality modification, have to be active and aggressive and therefore pyls rarely actually change their PYLs? Or is it just rare, or not recognized, or not important, or not interesting? Or is it actually rare at all?

You're right. I overlooked that. And I did so because of the reasons that you mentioned, because at least in my case it wasn't active, or aggressive. It was passive, but all the more.... powerful because of it. Seriously, I think acceptance is a huge deal. My pyl was the first one that really gave me that, the first one who I gave a chance to give me that. And that was a profound experience all by itself, a changing one.

So... when I think about the effect a pyl has on their PYL... I never think destructive. I never think aggressive. I never think bad of it, in any way. Maybe having a pyl is just simply good for the soul

 

[praefect]

Bravo for learning!

It seems to have made you a happier person. Knowing that your idealism is in fact a personal flaw that will drive your loved ones away... that's gotta hurt.

it's worth mentioning that a) Pygmalion didn't approve of the "prostitution" he saw amongst the Cyprian upper-class women. and b) Pygmalion's beloved was an ivory statue, and not an actual full grown human being. One possible moral of the story is that some folk cannot handle the complexities of humanity, and would be happier with simulacra.

Forgive my acerbity. That journal post you made public was nauseating to me. I'm glad to know it's something that you're past.

Don't sweat it. I was a presumptuous ignorant little prick back then, delusions of grandeur. Pretty much still riding that power high that felt like heroin then, when it was all new and limitless. Not that it wasn't fun

That's an interesting interpretation. Maybe I should actually read the whole thing one day, and not just the cliffnotes. The one I read showed the lesson being that you cannot create a perfect mate, and the only reason this guy managed to pull it off was because he had a god help him out.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Don't sweat it. I was a presumptuous ignorant little prick back then, delusions of grandeur. Pretty much still riding that power high that felt like heroin then, when it was all new and limitless. Not that it wasn't fun

That's an interesting interpretation. Maybe I should actually read the whole thing one day, and not just the cliffnotes. The one I read showed the lesson being that you cannot create a perfect mate, and the only reason this guy managed to pull it off was because he had a god help him out.

There really isn't much more than cliffnotes to the story anyway. It's striking in that there is no tragic ending. The couple have a son who does just fine. Hmm... Presumably because they acknowledge Aphrodite as the supreme goddess as a couple, (heterosexual normativity FTW) so have no antagonistic attitudes.

Them Greeks is tricky! And have a more subtle sense of humor than we moderns expect.

 

[welkin]

That is change that comes from within. I'm very big on that, myself, as I said in the OP. Both examples I used are about change that comes from outside of yourself. Something that I associate, within the context of BDSM, with the terms of behavior and personality modification. This is something sought both by subs and by doms, and I am not only aware, but hopeful that others have experiences to share that are not like my own.

You've described an action, but not really named the trait. Are we talking about cowardice? If we are, we are talking about fear. And if we are talking about fear, then we are talking about a trait that has not only value, but is required for base survival.

Are you a coward? Lets say you are, hypothetically. I would ask why. I would ask what are you protecting, what you are afraid of. I would wonder if it's because you are a very sensitive person. Sensitivity is worth protecting, has value to you and others, it allows you to form deep meaningful connections and read cues others are not aware of.
Are you not happy with this trait you possess? That would smell like perfectionism, both drive to great action, and reason for never ending discontent.

And so on, and so forth. Yes, that every fault is also a virtue is my belief. And that's all it is. I don't state it as fact, or objective truth. You are perfectly free to dismiss it as hogwash, but you'll have to explain to me how finding a way to be accepting in a universal matter is something arrogant

First, cowardice is not fear, nor is it rational risk aversion. Cowardice is the inability to correctly assess fear and face fear.



Accepting yourself, again, is a different matter from saying "we are all perfect already as we are". And should we always accept ourselves as we are? Though we want to be happy, is self-contentment really the goal in itself, the panacea to all our problems?

I don't see how you can look at someone who is a drug addict and abuses his kids and really be convinced that he should accept his weaknesses and that he's already perfect.

We may not have problems that extreme, but we all have areas that we can improve on.

(And I also have to point out: Just because I see something in myself that I want to work on, it doesn't mean I'm unhappy with myself. That may sound contradictory, but what I'm saying is, 'discontent' or 'dissatisfaction' doesn't have to be associated with negative emotions. In fact, there's great joy to be found along the path of self-improvement.)



And, just as everything in BDSM is consensual (or consensual nonconsent, or some twisted version thereof), I don't believe any change can be or should be completely external in a healthy BDSM relationship.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Cowardice is a social construct, meant to shame people into risking their real and actual lives for the sake of abstracts like "god and country."

 

[welkin]

Cowardice is a social construct, meant to shame people into risking their real and actual lives for the sake of abstracts like "god and country."

You're using it in a very narrow context.

For example, I think someone who breaks up by pulling the disappearing act exemplifies "cowardice". Yes you can say we're trying to shame people into being honest and upright in a relationship, so what. Not all peer pressure is bad either.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You're using it in a very narrow context.

For example, I think someone who breaks up by pulling the disappearing act exemplifies "cowardice". Yes you can say we're trying to shame people into being honest and upright in a relationship, so what. Not all peer pressure is bad either.

Yes indeed, disappearing from a relationship may inspired by a baseless fear. And that is shameful.
And I kind of made a promise to myself that I'd stop riding my semantic hobbyhorse through the forum like this...

 

[praefect]

First, cowardice is not fear, nor is it rational risk aversion. Cowardice is the inability to correctly assess fear and face fear.



Accepting yourself, again, is a different matter from saying "we are all perfect already as we are". And should we always accept ourselves as we are? Though we want to be happy, is self-contentment really the goal in itself, the panacea to all our problems?

I don't see how you can look at someone who is a drug addict and abuses his kids and really be convinced that he should accept his weaknesses and that he's already perfect.

We may not have problems that extreme, but we all have areas that we can improve on.

(And I also have to point out: Just because I see something in myself that I want to work on, it doesn't mean I'm unhappy with myself. That may sound contradictory, but what I'm saying is, 'discontent' or 'dissatisfaction' doesn't have to be associated with negative emotions. In fact, there's great joy to be found along the path of self-improvement.)



And, just as everything in BDSM is consensual (or consensual nonconsent, or some twisted version thereof), I don't believe any change can be or should be completely external in a healthy BDSM relationship.

Why do you think it is about how I see myself, rather than how I view others?

I have a Firefly quote running through my head. You enter scene and see a girl over a bible, correcting mistakes she sees in it. Only one pair per creature? RIDICULOUS!

Another character enters the scene, sees what the girl is doing, and says: "You don't fix faith, River. Faith fixes you."

I have worked with addicts during my social year. First part of a needle exchange program and then later with Heroin addicts doing a substitution program (before they became a money racket). There I met almost exclusively recovering addicts. Addiction is a sickness. It is a terrible, terrible disease. Heroin addiction doesn't reflect on the person that is sick, other than that, maybe, once in their life they made a mistake. One guy had spent 20 years on the street before he cleaned up. When he was finally helped, within a year he had his own apartment, had met a woman, held a job. You can not make judgments other than an initial idiocy or ignorance or traumatic event that's based on the fact that someone is an addict. There are too many factors, too many unknowns to just clump an entire group of individuals into one stereotype. They are judged very harshly by society as it is, a judgment that comes with dismissal, with frustration, with resignation, and is not conducive to a recovery. Making them feel human, however, is.

It's not by chance that admitting that it isn't ones own fault is part of the recovery. You can be assured that they're already beating themselves up, and have done so for a long time by that point. Not conducive to a recovery, only self destructive.

And even that recovery, once accomplished,... Many years later I remain in awe of heroin addicts that manage to remain clean. And so many do. It really is an incredible achievement. It never stops being an achievement, because the monkey on their backs will never again stop demanding its fix, and doing so the loudest in the times that are hardest. Substitution programs do not help with that.

As for abuse. I could go into detail here, too, but nobody wants to read details of that. Let me just say, the same trait, his obsession with order, rules, protocol, routine that made my father a shitty and inflexible parent in his youth made him a very successful finance officer in the Army.

 

[welkin]

Why do you think it is about how I see myself, rather than how I view others?

I have a Firefly quote running through my head. You enter scene and see a girl over a bible, correcting mistakes she sees in it. Only one pair per creature? RIDICULOUS!

Another character enters the scene, sees what the girl is doing, and says: "You don't fix faith, River. Faith fixes you."

I have worked with addicts during my social year. First part of a needle exchange program and then later with Heroin addicts doing a substitution program (before they became a money racket). There I met almost exclusively recovering addicts. Addiction is a sickness. It is a terrible, terrible disease. Heroin addiction doesn't reflect on the person that is sick, other than that, maybe, once in their life they made a mistake. One guy had spent 20 years on the street before he cleaned up. When he was finally helped, within a year he had his own apartment, had met a woman, held a job. You can not make judgments other than an initial idiocy or ignorance or traumatic event that's based on the fact that someone is an addict. There are too many factors, too many unknowns to just clump an entire group of individuals into one stereotype. They are judged very harshly by society as it is, a judgment that comes with dismissal, with frustration, with resignation, and is not conducive to a recovery. Making them feel human, however, is.

It's not by chance that admitting that it isn't ones own fault is part of the recovery. You can be assured that they're already beating themselves up, and have done so for a long time by that point. Not conducive to a recovery, only self destructive.

And even that recovery, once accomplished,... Many years later I remain in awe of heroin addicts that manage to remain clean. And so many do. It really is an incredible achievement. It never stops being an achievement, because the monkey on their backs will never again stop demanding its fix, and doing so the loudest in the times that are hardest. Substitution programs do not help with that.

As for abuse. I could go into detail here, too, but nobody wants to read details of that. Let me just say, the same trait, his obsession with order, rules, protocol, routine that made my father a shitty and inflexible parent in his youth made him a very successful finance officer in the Army.

I understand your points, I just don't like your terminology. My question is simple: Why do you help them if they're already perfect? Why (ab)use the word "perfect" when what you really mean is that everyone has his own values and strengths?

 

[praefect]

I understand your points, I just don't like your terminology. My question is simple: Why do you help them if they're already perfect? Why (ab)use the word "perfect" when what you really mean is that everyone has his own values and strengths?

Ah, that's something else entirely

Because of the feeling it conveys. The meaning it has for me, personally. What has perfection meant in my life? It was my goal. In all things. Never attained, always striven for. And I was never happy, but always driven, to a point where it became destructive. For others and myself.

See it as a fix for perfectionism. I can't change being a perfectionist. But I can trick myself to not care.

 

[FurryFury]

Perfect is a dirty word in my personal book.

FF

 

[Felix_Jones]

You can call me Houdini. But not that Chriss Angel weirdo.