Beg? Borrow? Steal?

[Angeline]

I just read a poem, elsewhere, by a wonderful poet who has written here as Denis Hale. He is very talented and I love reading him anyway, but this poem sorta reminded me of Billy Collins', Fishing on the Susquehanna in July because the vehicle for the poem's content is a description of a painting. Tzara started a thread for this sort of poem in his Eckphrastic (sp?) challenge. Denis' poem, however, is not about a real painting: it's all just his twisted poetic imagination.

And this got me thinking about what a good idea that is: using a description of artwork as a framework in which you build a poem about whatever you want. And I realized that I will likely steal that wonderful idea and write a poem of my own that way. So here's my question: how often do you "borrow" or steal ideas you get from other poems? Personally I do it all the time and I don't give a fig if people steal from me--well, as long as all they're stealing is an idea. Plagiarizing is never a good thing in my book.

If you've done this, have you a poem that illustrates an idea you've borrowed? Would you be willing to post that poem (or a link to it) here? I'm really hoping you people are as low about this as I am. It'll make me feel better if you do it, too.

 

[greenmountaineer]

I borrowed from Auden's "September 1, 1939" and attempted to do something similar in "September 1, 1969."

 

[Angeline]

I borrowed from Auden's "September 1, 1939" and attempted to do something similar in "September 1, 1969."

Hiya GM. Nice to see you.

That is the sort of thing I meant. Sometimes I do it as an exercise, like after becoming enthralled with Wallace Stevens's 13 Ways of Looking at a Blackbird, I wrote a derivative poem, and my poem One Window was a response to a poem called Window by Farouk Farrokzhad. I think I get ideas for how to get into a poem of my own from what others write. Some of my favorite writers here have inspired me to write some of my favorite poems. I just wondered if anyone thinks that is less than kosher or "cheating."

 

[twelveoone]

Hiya GM. Nice to see you.

That is the sort of thing I meant. Sometimes I do it as an exercise, like after becoming enthralled with Wallace Stevens's 13 Ways of Looking at a Blackbird, I wrote a derivative poem, and my poem One Window was a response to a poem called Window by Farouk Farrokzhad. I think I get ideas for how to get into a poem of my own from what others write. Some of my favorite writers here have inspired me to write some of my favorite poems. I just wondered if anyone thinks that is less than kosher or "cheating."

A link
(say hello to Nancy for me)

another from this page

But since you mentioned Wallace Stevens, I parodied him and the Beatles in Blackbirds and may have riffed on it a thread.

Sorry no link, let the trolls go look for it.

BTW, what ever happened to virus_vector, remember him from some months ago?

 

[Angeline]

A link
(say hello to Nancy for me)

another from this page

But since you mentioned Wallace Stevens, I parodied him and the Beatles in Blackbirds and may have riffed on it a thread.

Sorry no link, let the trolls go look for it.

BTW, what ever happened to virus_vector, remember him from some months ago?

I'm going nuts trying to remember this poem I read in the 1968 compilation, The Young American Poets (ed. Carroll). The poem was a response (or derivative of) ee cummings' somewhere I have never travelled. I remember when I read this poem that I knew it was a take on the cummings though I've never seen any lit crit saying as much. And the poet is an African American named James....I can't recall the last name and I can't find it. Don't suppose you with your superior research skillz haz any ideas.

Yep I remember, and nope dunno what happened to him. I'd be happy just to see GM and bogus posting here again. And yes I do recall that virus_vector was into shall we say, the tribute poem? Ahem.

How are you, twelvie?

 

[Tzara]

I just read a poem, elsewhere, by a wonderful poet who has written here as Denis Hale. He is very talented and I love reading him anyway, but this poem sorta reminded me of Billy Collins', Fishing on the Susquehanna in July because the vehicle for the poem's content is a description of a painting. Tzara started a thread for this sort of poem in his Eckphrastic (sp?) challenge. Denis' poem, however, is not about a real painting: it's all just his twisted poetic imagination.

The word is "ekphrastic," which means a literary description of or commentary on a visual work of art. Dennis's (sic) poem is excellent (or eksellent?) perhaps especially because it is about an imagined work of art. (The original ekphrastic thread is here.)

Something I've found interesting is how many visual artists (painters, sculptors, etc.) also think they can write poems. There's actually quite a lot of them, which makes me wonder about the connections between visual art and poetic art.

And this got me thinking about what a good idea that is: using a description of artwork as a framework in which you build a poem about whatever you want. And I realized that I will likely steal that wonderful idea and write a poem of my own that way. So here's my question: how often do you "borrow" or steal ideas you get from other poems? Personally I do it all the time and I don't give a fig if people steal from me--well, as long as all they're stealing is an idea. Plagiarizing is never a good thing in my book.

If you've done this, have you a poem that illustrates an idea you've borrowed? Would you be willing to post that poem (or a link to it) here? I'm really hoping you people are as low about this as I am. It'll make me feel better if you do it, too.

"Steal" sounds kind of harsh. I like to think I "reimagine" poems.

By stealing them.

Like in this thread, which was all about recycling other poets' work.

 

[Angeline]

The word is "ekphrastic," which means a literary description of or commentary on a visual work of art. Dennis's (sic) poem is excellent (or eksellent?) perhaps especially because it is about an imagined work of art. (The original ekphrastic thread is here.)

Something I've found interesting is how many visual artists (painters, sculptors, etc.) also think they can write poems. There's actually quite a lot of them, which makes me wonder about the connections between visual art and poetic art.

"Steal" sounds kind of harsh. I like to think I "reimagine" poems.

By stealing them.

Like in this thread, which was all about recycling other poets' work.

My daughter is primarily a visual artist, but I think she writes poems (when she does, which ain't often) with perception and sensitivity. And then there are poets like the late smithpeter, whose poems I find highly visual. Wicked Eve's poems are similarly visual, imo.

I don't really think of it as "stealing," either although I may joke about "stealing ideas." But I have wondered if anyone else does.

I knew I was spelling ekphrastic wrong! Thanks for ignoring my laziness in not looking it up.

 

[twelveoone]

I'm going nuts trying to remember this poem I read in the 1968 compilation, The Young American Poets (ed. Carroll). The poem was a response (or derivative of) ee cummings' somewhere I have never travelled. I remember when I read this poem that I knew it was a take on the cummings though I've never seen any lit crit saying as much. And the poet is an African American named James....I can't recall the last name and I can't find it. Don't suppose you with your superior research skillz haz any ideas.

Yep I remember, and nope dunno what happened to him. I'd be happy just to see GM and bogus posting here again. And yes I do recall that virus_vector was into shall we say, the tribute poem? Ahem.

How are you, twelvie?

Easiest thing to do would be to get the book. From what I understand it seems to be a seminal publication. New York School, I've had some problems with Nu Yukers.

 

[twelveoone]

The word is "ekphrastic," which means a literary description of or commentary on a visual work of art. Dennis's (sic) poem is excellent (or eksellent?) perhaps especially because it is about an imagined work of art. (The original ekphrastic thread is here.)

Something I've found interesting is how many visual artists (painters, sculptors, etc.) also think they can write poems. There's actually quite a lot of them, which makes me wonder about the connections between visual art and poetic art.

"Steal" sounds kind of harsh. I like to think I "reimagine" poems.

By stealing them.

Like in this thread, which was all about recycling other poets' work.

(Catty little dig. At who?)
Well, hello. Enjoy your hiatus?

A few reasons as to why, they are creative, perceptive, externally oriented, and know something about structure. The mind follows the eye (Lakoff). They might know something about blurring the boring line.

(so I return one)
On of the things I've found interesting is how many poets that aren't. Wasn't it Auden that said something to the effect of them liking the smell of their own farts?

But what the fuck do I know, having written one thing worth remembering? Which was a pun.

Perception. Say hello to our mutual "friends".

And correction, rework not "reimagine".

 

[twelveoone]

an "ekphrastic ectoplasm"
generated at least one of mine

"Well, well, well! Well if it isn't fat stinking billy goat Billy Boy in poison! How art thou, thou globby bottle of cheap stinking chip oil? Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarble, ya eunuch jelly thou!" -Alex DeLarge


Or maybe it was a vision of Russian Dolls.

 

[Angeline]

an "ekphrastic ectoplasm"
generated at least one of mine

"Well, well, well! Well if it isn't fat stinking billy goat Billy Boy in poison! How art thou, thou globby bottle of cheap stinking chip oil? Come and get one in the yarbles, if ya have any yarble, ya eunuch jelly thou!" -Alex DeLarge


Or maybe it was a vision of Russian Dolls.

I see you have no clue who that poet I mentioned in my previous post might be. Damnit this is going to drive me nuts now. And you know I've had not one but two copies of The Young American Poets (circa 1968) over the years. One was a gift to me from a friend when we were both undergrads at Rutgers. Lost that in some move and found another copy in a Princeton U annual book sale years later. And now I guess I'll get it again: I see Alibris has some pretty inexpensive copies. It's well worth it anyway. There's one long poem by Ted Berrigan in it also that I absolutely love--and I don't think it is published in that long form anywhere else. There's also wonderful stuff from Ron Padgett, Diane Wakowski, Marvin Bell, many poets who had that second generation New York connection. Third time's the charm, I suppose.

When I get the book, I'll post that mysterious poem in this thread. It's really fascinating to see how the poet used cummings' poem as a springboard for his own piece.

 

[twelveoone]

I see you have no clue who that poet I mentioned in my previous post might be. Damnit this is going to drive me nuts now. And you know I've had not one but two copies of The Young American Poets (circa 1968) over the years. One was a gift to me from a friend when we were both undergrads at Rutgers. Lost that in some move and found another copy in a Princeton U annual book sale years later. And now I guess I'll get it again: I see Alibris has some pretty inexpensive copies. It's well worth it anyway. There's one long poem by Ted Berrigan in it also that I absolutely love--and I don't think it is published in that long form anywhere else. There's also wonderful stuff from Ron Padgett, Diane Wakowski, Marvin Bell, many poets who had that second generation New York connection. Third time's the charm, I suppose.

When I get the book, I'll post that mysterious poem in this thread. It's really fascinating to see how the poet used cummings' poem as a springboard for his own piece.

I did come across a name James
# "My Grandfather's Funeral." The Young American Poets. Ed. Paul Carroll. (1968).
# "January." The Young American Poets. Ed. Paul Carroll. (1968).
# "Birthday, with Leaves." The Young American Poets. Ed. Paul Carroll. (1968).
# "Lawn and Light." The Young American Poets. Ed. Paul Carroll. (1968).
# "Church and Clouds." The Young American Poets. Ed. Paul Carroll. (1968).
# "Leaf Mirrors." The Young American Poets. Ed. Paul Carroll. (1968).
# "Tree in the Rain." The Young American Poets. Ed. Paul Carroll. (1968).

 

[twelveoone]

Four point triangulation.
With what was given.
And as said, seems to be a seminal book.

 

[Angeline]

Four point triangulation.
With what was given.
And as said, seems to be a seminal book.

It's not James Applewhite. I tried him yesterday.

I highly recommend the book--there are many poets featured in it who were (in 1968) on the cusp of a great career or had been around a while with little recognition. And as I said, there is some obscure though excellent poetry in it that I doubt has been published elsewhere. Just try to hold onto it once you get it.

 

[twelveoone]

It's not James Applewhite. I tried him yesterday.

I highly recommend the book--there are many poets featured in it who were (in 1968) on the cusp of a great career or had been around a while with little recognition. And as I said, there is some obscure though excellent poetry in it that I doubt has been published elsewhere. Just try to hold onto it once you get it.

James Berrigan?

Just kidding, link may be of interest, tho

James Welsh, was a Blackfoot Indian

 

[Tzara]

I knew I was spelling ekphrastic wrong! Thanks for ignoring my laziness in not looking it up.

Looking at a dictionary, it appears it can be spelled "ekphrastic" or "ecphrastic" so perhaps you were just covering both options.

Doesn't matter. I'm just obnoxiously anal about spelling.

 

[Tzara]

(Catty little dig. At who?)

Well, it wasn't meant to be, though if was me thinking of anyone, it was of Carl Andre. Does that help?

 

[Tzara]

So here's my question: how often do you "borrow" or steal ideas you get from other poems?

I've been thinking about this question for some time. I have "copied" poets and/or poems before, sometimes quite explicitly and sometimes more generally. But what it brought particularly to mind was something like this:

The River-Merchant's Wife: A Letter
Ezra Pound

While my hair was still cut straight across my forehead
I played about the front gate, pulling flowers.
You came by on bamboo stilts, playing horse,
You walked about my seat, playing with blue plums.
And we went on living in the village of Chokan:
Two small people, without dislike or suspicion.

At fourteen I married My Lord you.
I never laughed, being bashful.
Lowering my head, I looked at the wall.
Called to, a thousand times, I never looked back.

At fifteen I stopped scowling,
I desired my dust to be mingled with yours
Forever and forever and forever.
Why should I climb the look out?

At sixteen you departed,
You went into far Ku-to-yen, by the river of swirling eddies,
And you have been gone five months.
The monkeys make sorrowful noise overhead.

You dragged your feet when you went out.
By the gate now, the moss is grown, the different mosses,
Too deep to clear them away!
The leaves fall early this autumn, in wind.
The paired butterflies are already yellow with August
Over the grass in the West garden;
They hurt me. I grow older.
If you are coming down through the narrows of the river Kiang,
Please let me know beforehand,
And I will come out to meet you
...As far as Cho-fu-Sa.​

Poets.org gives this as "by Rihaku," which is, I think, Pound's original attribution in Cathay. I've also seen it as "after Li Po" or variations on that ("Rihaku" is the Japanese form of the name of the Chinese poet Li Po (or Li Bai)). The poem is usually described as something like "a very loose translation" or "an adaptation" or something like that. So is it, in this form, Li Po's poem, or Pound's poem? And if it is Pound's poem, did he lift it from Li Po?

If he did, at least he pilfered from the best.

 

[Angeline]

I've been thinking about this question for some time. I have "copied" poets and/or poems before, sometimes quite explicitly and sometimes more generally. But what it brought particularly to mind was something like this:

The River-Merchant's Wife: A Letter
Ezra Pound

While my hair was still cut straight across my forehead
I played about the front gate, pulling flowers.
You came by on bamboo stilts, playing horse,
You walked about my seat, playing with blue plums.
And we went on living in the village of Chokan:
Two small people, without dislike or suspicion.

At fourteen I married My Lord you.
I never laughed, being bashful.
Lowering my head, I looked at the wall.
Called to, a thousand times, I never looked back.

At fifteen I stopped scowling,
I desired my dust to be mingled with yours
Forever and forever and forever.
Why should I climb the look out?

At sixteen you departed,
You went into far Ku-to-yen, by the river of swirling eddies,
And you have been gone five months.
The monkeys make sorrowful noise overhead.

You dragged your feet when you went out.
By the gate now, the moss is grown, the different mosses,
Too deep to clear them away!
The leaves fall early this autumn, in wind.
The paired butterflies are already yellow with August
Over the grass in the West garden;
They hurt me. I grow older.
If you are coming down through the narrows of the river Kiang,
Please let me know beforehand,
And I will come out to meet you
...As far as Cho-fu-Sa.​

Poets.org gives this as "by Rihaku," which is, I think, Pound's original attribution in Cathay. I've also seen it as "after Li Po" or variations on that ("Rihaku" is the Japanese form of the name of the Chinese poet Li Po (or Li Bai)). The poem is usually described as something like "a very loose translation" or "an adaptation" or something like that. So is it, in this form, Li Po's poem, or Pound's poem? And if it is Pound's poem, did he lift it from Li Po?

If he did, at least he pilfered from the best.

This is often the case with translations (even those that are not "loose translations"), isn't it? I remember seeing a website some years back that had 17 different English translations of the same poem, originally written by Fernando Pessoa. There was a range of difference in those 17 poems and, I presume, a range of difference from the original poem, which was written in Portuguese. (And the really ironic part--to me-- is that Pessoa often wrote his poems in English so there may well be an English translation of it by him, though I've never seen it.)

This is also true of poems by Forugh Farrokzhad, an Iranian poet I've loved for years. I've seen numerous variations of some of her poems, some of which are much better (imho) than others. And I'll never really know how good the originals are as they are written in Farsi, and I have zilch knowledge of that language.

So I guess what I'm saying is that, at least as far as translations go, "borrowing" is sort of built into the process. And I believe most of us (who read others' poetry before we wrote it) begin by writing poems that at least emulate those poets we love. But I am mostly interested in how much my colleagues here do it--at least consciously. I think--again, if one starts writing poetry because one reads poems they love--there's an inherent degree of palimpsest in every poem one produces.

 

[Tzara]

This is often the case with translations (even those that are not "loose translations"), isn't it? I remember seeing a website some years back that had 17 different English translations of the same poem, originally written by Fernando Pessoa. There was a range of difference in those 17 poems and, I presume, a range of difference from the original poem, which was written in Portuguese. (And the really ironic part--to me-- is that Pessoa often wrote his poems in English so there may well be an English translation of it by him, though I've never seen it.)

This is also true of poems by Forugh Farrokzhad, an Iranian poet I've loved for years. I've seen numerous variations of some of her poems, some of which are much better (imho) than others. And I'll never really know how good the originals are as they are written in Farsi, and I have zilch knowledge of that language.

So I guess what I'm saying is that, at least as far as translations go, "borrowing" is sort of built into the process. And I believe most of us (who read others' poetry before we wrote it) begin by writing poems that at least emulate those poets we love. But I am mostly interested in how much my colleagues here do it--at least consciously. I think--again, if one starts writing poetry because one reads poems they love--there's an inherent degree of palimpsest in every poem one produces.

Translation is always a problem, I think. Translating poetry, in particular. I have a book of poems by Pär Lagerkvist translated by none other than W. H. Auden (with Leif Sjöberg) where, in the preface, Sjöberg states that he did a literal translation of the poems, along with noting variations in meanings of some of the words, and Auden then made a poem based on that material.

That does not seem like "translation" to me, but perhaps I'm being fussy about it.

 

[BooMerengue]

...oooops!

 

[Maria2394]

The word is "ekphrastic," which means a literary description of or commentary on a visual work of art. Dennis's (sic) poem is excellent (or eksellent?) perhaps especially because it is about an imagined work of art. (The original ekphrastic thread is here.)

Something I've found interesting is how many visual artists (painters, sculptors, etc.) also think they can write poems. There's actually quite a lot of them, which makes me wonder about the connections between visual art and poetic art.

"Steal" sounds kind of harsh. I like to think I "reimagine" poems.

By stealing them.

Like in this thread, which was all about recycling other poets' work.

When I spent time on AOL, I met several chemists who were excellent poets. Imagine that I believe that there are many people who are talented in more than one discipline. The chemists told me they wrote to relax. Writing virtually never relaxes me because when I begin something it weighs upon me until finished.

And yes, I borrowed an idea from Oscar Wilde in my poem, "Window Shopping with Dorian Gray"

I hope you are well, BW, I've missed your work since I've been away

~ j