NRA and Florida gag pediatricians: no more firearm safety advice for parents

[Ishmael]

Byron has already responded to the same post you just re-posted (albeit worded differently). So I'll re-post his answer (albeit worded differently).

If one is to give advice or counsel as part of a professional service for which one is charging I don't think it unreasonable to expect that that professional be, if not an expert, at least certifiably educated on the subject. If those same pediatricians want to opine on any subject outside of the office and on their own dime, more power to them.

Ishmael

 

[richard_daily]

Byron has already responded to the same post you just re-posted (albeit worded differently). So I'll re-post his answer (albeit worded differently).

If one is to give advice or counsel as part of a professional service for which one is charging I don't think it unreasonable to expect that that professional be, if not an expert, at least certifiably educated on the subject. If those same pediatricians want to opine on any subject outside of the office and on their own dime, more power to them.

Ishmael

So they should be legally barred from offering advice that they aren't trained in?

Is this the road you think the country should go down?

There are all sorts of hypocrisies in your statement, and of course, this should only be applied either across the board, or not at all. You can't choose to do this selectively.

Is that the country you want to live in?

I don't think that you've really thought this through very well.

 

[Ishmael]

As a matter of fact they already are. If they offer legal advice as part of their professional service they are liable for both criminal and civil actions.

Ishmael

 

[richard_daily]

As a matter of fact they already are. If they offer legal advice as part of their professional service they are liable for both criminal and civil actions.

Ishmael

Are lawyers barred from giving medical advice?

Should they be?

What about advice on nutrition? Should lawyers be allowed to give advice on calorie consumption?

 

[sigh]

If one is to give advice or counsel as part of a professional service for which one is charging I don't think it unreasonable to expect that that professional be, if not an expert, at least certifiably educated on the subject. If those same pediatricians want to opine on any subject outside of the office and on their own dime, more power to them.

If that's the issue, then (as I said last night) don't tell one group of people they CAN'T do something. Instead, license the professional service in question and anyone who can pass the certification can then provide the service.

We do that for dozens of specialties, including my own. Including physicians, for that matter. And hairdressers and counselors and accountants and interior designers and locksmiths and so on and so on.

The NRA is targeting doctors specifically to tell them they can't do this rather than arguing for certification which would stop doctors AND anyone else who is providing this service improperly. I guess it's okay for your barber to counsel you on gun safety but not your physician. THAT'S what doesn't make sense to me.

And all I'm hearing back (over and over again) is that doctors aren't qualified to do this.

 

[bronzeage]

Are lawyers barred from giving medical advice?

Should they be?

What about advice on nutrition? Should lawyers be allowed to give advice on calorie consumption?

Now we see what this all about. It's a turf war between doctors and lawyers.

Doctors treat gunshot wounds (assuming there are survivors) and lawyers defend parents against charges of negligent homicide (assuming there are no survivors).

 

[sigh]

Are lawyers barred from giving medical advice?

Should they be?

What about advice on nutrition? Should lawyers be allowed to give advice on calorie consumption?

Yes, as a matter of fact lawyers are barred from giving medical advice (at least as a professional service). That would be practicing medicine without a license.

And physicians (and lawyers too) would be barred from giving gun safety advice if that service too were simply licensed.

 

[Peregrinator]

Everytime I engage you in reasoned debate you manage to somehow through in some bullshit question.

Let's play this one straight, you questioned the statement----you prove me wrong.

I can assure you that EACH AND EVERY ONE of the NRA's safety instructors are certified firearm safety instructors. Now you document how many pediatricians are certified to teach firearm safety?

And Perg., "Firearms are bad, get rid of them." does not qualify that individual.

Ishmael

Shifting the burden as usual Ish?

Most Florida pediatricians are certified firearms safety instructors. Prove me wrong.

 

[Peregrinator]

Flashback to the 1970's

A_J's best friend, Tony: But the proposed seat belt laws are just to protect the kids, they'll never tell us (adults) that we have to wear a seat belt; we have a duty to protect children.

Flashback to last week

A_J's good buddy, Perg: But aren't you glad they made seat belt use mandatory, look at the reduction in highway deaths...


__________________
"A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding his pediatrician's business."
Eric Hoffer

Flashback to last week:

AJ: But this government intervention is just to protect the privacy of gun-owners. They'll never pass another law gagging physicians.

Do you wear a seatbelt? I do, even in those rare places where it's not required. Know why? Because there was a concerted effort to educate the public about the danger of not wearing one. One of the groups that was involved with that education effort was physicians.

Think about it.

 

[Peregrinator]

So if one is not certified in a topic, then they should not be allowed to have an opinion on it? Or better yet, they should be legally banned from discussing it?

I didn't think I'd see you supporting a position like that, but hey, I guess there's no accounting for partisanship.

Ish is not a certified firearms safety instructor. Therefore his opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Peregrinator]

Byron has already responded to the same post you just re-posted (albeit worded differently). So I'll re-post his answer (albeit worded differently).

If one is to give advice or counsel as part of a professional service for which one is charging I don't think it unreasonable to expect that that professional be, if not an expert, at least certifiably educated on the subject. If those same pediatricians want to opine on any subject outside of the office and on their own dime, more power to them.

Ishmael

You're so full of shit on this that I can smell it all the way up here in Vermont, Ish.

A physician is more than capable of understanding that a gun locked up separately from its ammunition is safer around kids than a loaded gun on the coffee table. A trained chimpanzee is capable of understanding this. The NRA can write articles and pamphlets for pediatricians--in fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't do this--which show data on best practice for gun safety. This information can then be disseminated to patients by physicians. Except, oopsy, you and the other jack-booted big government types want to prevent them from doing so.

If it weren't your sacred cow being poked here, you'd be all up in arms about this law, and everyone except you knows it.

 

[neci]

maybe there are so few child deaths by firearms because people are actually out there educating about gun safety.

 

[Byron In Exile]

A physician is more than capable of understanding that a gun locked up separately from its ammunition is safer around kids than a loaded gun on the coffee table. A trained chimpanzee is capable of understanding this.

But the average gun owner isn't?

 

[neci]

actually, it's a question i've been asked at every yearly check up, along with several other questions like, do you keep your cleaning products out of reach, do you have a car seat, do you smoke inside the house? simple questions designed to get parents thinking about child safety issues. most people don't need to be asked, but there are quite a few that do. what is common sense for one person is not so for others. it seems to me that this is in response to insurance companies upping premiums and denying coverage, and instead of dealing with the insurance companies alone, the gov't has decided to tell doctors how to run their practices.

a question for gun owners.

when becoming licensed to buy a gun, are you required to tell the gov't if you have children? are you required to take a child/gun safety class if you have a kid or there will be children present in your home? how often are safety classes required by law for people who own fire arms? is it like a drivers license where you have to retake a test every few years to prove you can still see?

No.

We were asked when we adopted, so we just lied...

Why would it be the business of government to micro-manage gun owners, instead of say, car, lawnmower or toaster owners?

so, if there are no requirements set to teach people about gun ownership safety, is it possible that the pediatrician may be the only person giving out gun safety information?

 

[koalabear]

You're so full of shit on this that I can smell it all the way up here in Vermont, Ish.

A physician is more than capable of understanding that a gun locked up separately from its ammunition is safer around kids than a loaded gun on the coffee table. A trained chimpanzee is capable of understanding this. The NRA can write articles and pamphlets for pediatricians--in fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't do this--which show data on best practice for gun safety. This information can then be disseminated to patients by physicians. Except, oopsy, you and the other jack-booted big government types want to prevent them from doing so.

If it weren't your sacred cow being poked here, you'd be all up in arms about this law, and everyone except you knows it.

Who keeps their loaded gun on a coffee table? Plus it is not the giving of safety info that is the main issue, it is a list of who has firearms.

 

[cjh]

Who keeps their loaded gun on a coffee table? Plus it is not the giving of safety info that is the main issue, it is a list of who has firearms.

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2011/may/07/child-kills-herself-with-gun/

http://www.abc24.com/news/local/sto...Elementary-School/OaGdCBNa6kioW1DTToyOnw.cspx

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04/29/police-child-brings-loaded-gun-to-school-in-queens/

sigh. "child loaded gun" is a depressing google search.

In published reports, Rep. Brodeur said he introduced the legislation because he feared that the new federal health reform legislation would allow such information to become part of a federal or insurance company record, although the act, in a section titled “Protection of Second Amendment Gun Rights,” forbids anyone in government from using the law to collect information about gun ownership and insurance companies from raising rates because of that information.

http://journals.lww.com/em-news/Fulltext/2011/05000/Florida_Gun_Law_Could_Gag_Physicians.1.aspx

 

[koalabear]

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2011/may/07/child-kills-herself-with-gun/

http://www.abc24.com/news/local/sto...Elementary-School/OaGdCBNa6kioW1DTToyOnw.cspx

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04/29/police-child-brings-loaded-gun-to-school-in-queens/

sigh. "child loaded gun" is a depressing google search.

Try lawyers defending pedophiles, that should cheer you up.

 

[cjh]

Try lawyers defending pedophiles, that should cheer you up.

i think everyone deserves a lawyer.

even the worst of the worst.

even the guilty.

for example, i think tobacco companies deserve lawyers.

i believe in fairness and due process and the right to effective counsel.

i am sorry you do not believe in the constitution.

 

[neci]

Who keeps their loaded gun on a coffee table? Plus it is not the giving of safety info that is the main issue, it is a list of who has firearms.

http://www.livescience.com/4491-survey-families-storing-guns-safely.html

Survey: Families Not Storing Guns Safely

Few American families that keep firearms in their homes store them safely, a pediatric researcher says.

Nearly 200 million guns are privately owned in the United States, and more than one third of all American homes report keeping at least one gun in the house, according to previous studies.

Researchers surveyed more than 3,500 parents in pediatric offices across the United States and Canada. A total of 23 percent of the families surveyed reported owning firearms, and close to one third of them reported safe storage practices.

“Over 70 percent of families surveyed reported not storing their firearms safely in their residence,” said Robert DuRant of the Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center. “This concerns us a great deal because having guns in the home increases the likelihood that they will be used in a suicide or unintentional injury.”

Several patterns of firearm storage emerged from the study data, detailed in the June issue of the journal Pediatrics, mostly influenced by firearm type, family socialization with guns and the age of the children in the household.

“Our research shows that unsafe gun storage is associated with families who were raised with guns in the home,” DuRant said. “They tend to be more comfortable with guns and are less likely to store them safely.”

“We also found that families who had children aged 2 to 5 years and owned long guns were more likely to store guns safely than families with older children,” he added.

Families with two adults in the home were more likely to own guns, the study found. Those in rural areas were more likely to own long guns and to store them unlocked but separately from ammunition.

Families that owned handguns were more likely to store the guns locked but loaded.

The National Rifle Association was unable to comment on the results of the study by the time this story was published.

DuRant encourages all pediatricians to talk with parents about safe gun storage practices. The safest practice would be to remove guns from the house, but if parents are unwilling to do that, they should lock them and store the ammunition separately, he said.

“It’s imperative that parents understand the necessity of storing guns safely in the home,” DuRant said.

 

[koalabear]

i think everyone deserves a lawyer.

even the worst of the worst.

even the guilty.

for example, i think tobacco companies deserve lawyers.

i believe in fairness and due process and the right to effective counsel.

i am sorry you do not believe in the constitution.

Show me where in the Constitution it says criminals get 30 years of unlimited appeals at taxpayer expense. Even if 1000 people saw them and it was all caught on video and they admit guilt.

 

[cjh]

Show me where in the Constitution it says criminals get 30 years of unlimited appeals at taxpayer expense. Even if 1000 people saw them and it was all caught on video and they admit guilt.

can you say "habeas corpus"?

 

[bronzeage]

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2011/may/07/child-kills-herself-with-gun/

http://www.abc24.com/news/local/sto...Elementary-School/OaGdCBNa6kioW1DTToyOnw.cspx

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04/29/police-child-brings-loaded-gun-to-school-in-queens/

sigh. "child loaded gun" is a depressing google search.



http://journals.lww.com/em-news/Fulltext/2011/05000/Florida_Gun_Law_Could_Gag_Physicians.1.aspx

The father told authorities he kept the gun on top of the refrigerator.

Three-year-old India Grant just finished going to the bathroom with her mother's help Friday morning when she crossed through her parents' master bedroom and saw the family's loaded handgun sitting unsecured on a windowsill.

School leaders say the boy found the gun in a drawer at home.

The only valid argument against pediatricians discussing gun safety with parents is it would be a waste of their valuable time. What could a pediatrician say to any of these parents which would make them change things in their home?

 

[cjh]

Show me where in the Constitution it says criminals get 30 years of unlimited appeals at taxpayer expense. Even if 1000 people saw them and it was all caught on video and they admit guilt.

that said, can you show me where in the constitution it says doctors cannot talk to patients about guns?

 

[koalabear]

can you say "habeas corpus"?

I can say second rate law clerk.

 

[cjh]

The only valid argument against pediatricians discussing gun safety with parents is it would be a waste of their valuable time. What could a pediatrician say to any of these parents which would make them change things in their home?

i guess those parents had not yet taken the NRA gun safety course.

they probably had it on the calendar, though.