Denoting foreign language

[PennLady]

I have revised and will e-publish my story Ghosts of the Forum. The story takes place in Montreal (I've never been there) and a friend helped me fix up the French. Some of the dialogue is in French, most in English, and some is French rendered in English. I.e., the characters are speaking French but the words are written in English.

If you were doing that, how would you denote it? My beta reader and I did the following:

«Adele, ma chérie, are you still here?» The man’s voice was low and cheerful.
Adele Nadeau looked up and smiled. «Bonsoir, Georges.» She covered a yawn. «I’m leaving soon. I just like to have a few quiet minutes before I go home.»

The << and >> marks denote the characters speaking in French although the words are English. Elsewhere in the story, actual French dialogue is in regular quotes and the text in italics. English, of course, is in regular text.

My e-editor does not like the << and>> marks and is making changes accordingly. I'm a little annoyed as it took some time to make sure all the marks were consistent, but the primary concern is making things clear to the reader.

So after all that -- what would anyone else do? Or what have you done in this case?

Also -- my editor gave me this link to a different forum on the same topic. Not sure I like their answers but oh well.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I have revised and will e-publish my story Ghosts of the Forum. The story takes place in Montreal (I've never been there) and a friend helped me fix up the French. Some of the dialogue is in French, most in English, and some is French rendered in English. I.e., the characters are speaking French but the words are written in English.

If you were doing that, how would you denote it? My beta reader and I did the following:

«Adele, ma chérie, are you still here?» The man’s voice was low and cheerful.
Adele Nadeau looked up and smiled. «Bonsoir, Georges.» She covered a yawn. «I’m leaving soon. I just like to have a few quiet minutes before I go home.»
[/quote.]

The << and >> marks denote the characters speaking in French although the words are English. Elsewhere in the story, actual French dialogue is in regular quotes and the text in italics. English, of course, is in regular text.

My e-editor does not like the << and>> marks and is making changes accordingly. I'm a little annoyed as it took some time to make sure all the marks were consistent, but the primary concern is making things clear to the reader.

So after all that -- what would anyone else do? Or what have you done in this case?

The French quotation marks should only be used, I think, when you are writing in French, not when you are including French text in your English story. Using them to indicate that the dialogue is in French, though transcribed in English, is not a usage that people would recognize. I'm with your editor on using English quotation marks, and might consider writing the "English of the French" in italics, just as the actual French, to suggest that the dialogue was in French.

 

[sr71plt]

No, I certainly wouldn't do that if you are writing for an American audience, and/or want to keep your American readers reading. (And if you don't, expect comments to the effect on Lit. story postings.)

The American system doesn't use those angle brackets for anything--and they will therefore be very distracting to an American reader. Foreign terms (but not place or personal names) are rendered in italics in the American system--unless they are found in an American dictionary, in which case they are left in Roman.

Thus:

"Adele, ma chérie, are you still here?" The man’s voice was low and cheerful. Adele Nadeau looked up and smiled. "Bonsoir, Georges." She covered a yawn. "I’m leaving soon. I just like to have a few quiet minutes before I go home."

For the reader, it doesn't really make a hill of beans whether they are speaking in a foreign language or not. If it makes a difference in the plot, you'd need to take care of that with in-context explanations. For instance:

". . . and smiled. The two continued speaking in French. "Bonsoir, Georges." She covered a yawn. "I’m leaving . . ."


I know that Brits have their feathers ruffled when they get dinged for bad grammar/punctuation on Literotica when they use proper British/French styles that are basically unknown in the American system, but this is an American-based site with American readers in the majority, so they need to take the majority of readers into account. Treatments like this just don't fly in the American market. If national pride makes you insist on using them, then you have signed up for consequences.

 

[PennLady]

This story, Ghosts of the Forum, was posted here but I took it down last week. I had not, in the original version, used the angle brackets. Despite my incorrect French, the story did win 3d in the 2009 Halloween contest so I guess I did something right. It was likely my most popular story on any site I posted it on.

The angle quotes were suggested by a beta reader of mine, who lives in Toronto but spent several years living in Montreal. A few sentences after my previous excerpt, it is in fact specified that the gentleman is speaking joual and the woman la belle francaise, what I'm told are a street-slang-ish and more polite French, respectively.

Personally I am not affected or annoyed (usually) by British-isms, French-isms, or anything else. But I don't want to bother anyone.

Also, I used the angle quotes in later chapters of my story Numbers Game, to indicate when characters were speaking in Russian, and no one ever said a thing about it. But like I said, the editor has the final say on that one. I suppose I could argue for it but it's not worth it. I was just curious about what anyone else might have done.

 

[bashfullyshameless]

I know that Brits have their feathers ruffled when they get dinged for bad grammar/punctuation on Literotica when they use proper British/French styles that are basically unknown in the American system, but this is an American-based site with American readers in the majority, so they need to take the majority of readers into account. Treatments like this just don't fly in the American market. If national pride makes you insist on using them, then you have signed up for consequences.

Or maybe us 'murricans could just, y'know, get a grip and deal.

I'm actually really pleased to see authors other than Americans on this site, and I enjoy noting the differences. Every time I see "arse," I think to myself, "Hey! I'm expanding my horizons with this author!"

With regards to the question, I can tell you that > preceded by its twin, <, are how comic books frequently denote foreign languages. The main reason I'm leery of them in writing regular text stuff, though, is that it creates lots of confusion on my computer. I'm not remotely an HTML expert, so I shy away from stuff that can blow up on me like that.

I would suggest either using consistent italics, or perhaps simply making a narrative note of it. SR71plt's suggestion of mixing in words to lead in isn't bad, particularly if you include that narrative note of who is speaking in what (without doing it so often that you drive yourself nuts).

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Though I have no knowledge of French, when my characters speak Spanish, they speak in italics. I find that to be the norm in any book I read where foreign language text is used.

 

[sr71plt]

Or maybe us 'murricans could just, y'know, get a grip and deal.

Excuse me. You're talking about a bunch of porn readers--and readers who comment as they please. Not, by and large, folks who have been more than 100 miles from home deep in the heart of the States. How many highly educated Americans even do you know who know what French quote marks are? I think the grip that needs to be "got" is yours. If all else fails, trying considering reality.

I didn't mix the words, incidentally. I just applied italics to the foreign word elements of what was provided.

 

[PennLady]

Or maybe us 'murricans could just, y'know, get a grip and deal.

I'm actually really pleased to see authors other than Americans on this site, and I enjoy noting the differences. Every time I see "arse," I think to myself, "Hey! I'm expanding my horizons with this author!"

With regards to the question, I can tell you that > preceded by its twin, <, are how comic books frequently denote foreign languages. The main reason I'm leery of them in writing regular text stuff, though, is that it creates lots of confusion on my computer. I'm not remotely an HTML expert, so I shy away from stuff that can blow up on me like that.

I would suggest either using consistent italics, or perhaps simply making a narrative note of it. SR71plt's suggestion of mixing in words to lead in isn't bad, particularly if you include that narrative note of who is speaking in what (without doing it so often that you drive yourself nuts).

Yes, we Yanks could just deal. You'll eventually get past 'realise' and words like that, and figure out that a "jumper" is a sweater.

I have seen the < and > marks used for foreign languages in comics and even the occasional thought or aside.

Personally, I though the angle quotes were an easy visual cue to the reader, but I dunno. Like I said, I used them in Numbers Game, and no one made a peep about them. Although if/when it comes time to e-publish that one, I guess I'll fix those quotes as well. I'll see what my editor does.

 

[sr71plt]

I have seen the < and > marks used for foreign languages in comics and even the occasional thought or aside.

Oh, conveying what meaning? I've never seen them used--even once--in the American style system.

Again, I think you're flying in the face of reality. But the negative comments by those who don't understand will just need to be something you endure, I guess.

 

[PennLady]

Oh, conveying what meaning? I've never seen them used--even once--in the American style system.

Again, I think you're flying in the face of reality. But the negative comments by those who don't understand will just need to be something you endure, I guess.

As the previous poster said -- the< and > marks have been used in comic books to denote characters speaking in a foreign language. I think I've also seen them used to denote thoughts or side comments, although thoughts are usually in "bubbles."

As for the second part -- I did not use them in the original version of Ghosts of the Forum, the story in question. I did use them in Numbers Game and I'd like to reiterate that NO ONE even mentioned them, let alone complained about them. So if I was flying in the face of reality, I guess my readers went along with me.

You don't need to argue with me -- I've already said I'll go along with the changes suggested by my editor. I was just wondering what other people do or have done.

 

[sr71plt]

As the previous poster said -- the< and > marks have been used in comic books to denote characters speaking in a foreign language. I think I've also seen them used to denote thoughts or side comments, although thoughts are usually in "bubbles."

As for the second part -- I did not use them in the original version of Ghosts of the Forum, the story in question. I did use them in Numbers Game and I'd like to reiterate that NO ONE even mentioned them, let alone complained about them. So if I was flying in the face of reality, I guess my readers went along with me.

You don't need to argue with me -- I've already said I'll go along with the changes suggested by my editor. I was just wondering what other people do or have done.

I've already challenged the "have seen it" claim.

I think you're thinking like an author rather than the readers you want to have.

 

[PennLady]

I've already challenged the "have seen it" claim.

I think you're thinking like an author rather than the readers you want to have.

Okay -- let me try this again. It's like you're ignoring what I say.

I have seen -- and if you like I'll pull out a comic book and scan an image -- < and > used in COMIC BOOKS (!!!) to denote characters speaking in foreign languages. that's what it conveyed! Not on Lit, not in regular text novels, but in COMIC BOOKS. Where visual cues of various sorts are used.

I'm an author AND a reader; I can handle things out of the ordinary as long as their meaning is clear and they are used consistently.

I'm also saying that the << and >> marks I used (the actual marks, not just two less than and greater than signs; I can't reproduce them here without code) in Numbers Game apparently did not bother any readers. As I said, no one commented on them at all, not to complain or applaud. So it appears that some READERS were fine with it.

And last, I'm not going against anything. I've said I'll go with the changes.

 

[sr71plt]

I have seen -- and if you like I'll pull out a comic book and scan an image -- < and > used in COMIC BOOKS (!!!) to denote characters speaking in foreign languages. that's what it conveyed! Not on Lit, not in regular text novels, but in COMIC BOOKS. Where visual cues of various sorts are used.

Yes, that's been said several times. I challenged it. American readers don't understand what it means, and I haven't seen it. So, I challenged the truth of that claim. If it doesn't convey meaning to a large swatch of the readership, it's useless as a device, I am asserting.

I don't understand what you think it means to a reader in this context either. I certainly don't think anyone but you understands that the material is rendered in English but actually was said in French. So, I can fully understand why your editor thinks you should ditch that technique.

In this case, it also intrudes in the read for those unfamiliar with it--which, I'm claiming, is just about very American reader, at least--on a majority American reader site on an American-based site. Just reality.

As far as "let them adjust," I think it was Marie Antoinette who was quoted as saying "Let them eat cake" not long before she was beheaded by folks who weren't in the same realm of understanding or assumption that she was.

 

[PennLady]

Yes, that's been said several times. I challenged it. American readers don't understand what it means, and I haven't seen it. So, I challenged the truth of that claim. If it doesn't convey meaning to a large swatch of the readership, it's useless as a device, I am asserting.

I don't understand what you think it means to a reader in this context either. I certainly don't think anyone but you understands that the material is rendered in English but actually was said in French. So, I can fully understand why your editor thinks you should ditch that technique.

In this case, it also intrudes in the read for those unfamiliar with it--which, I'm claiming, is just about very American reader, at least--on a majority American reader site on an American-based site. Just reality.

As far as "let them adjust," I think it was Marie Antoinette who was quoted as saying "Let them eat cake" not long before she was beheaded by folks who weren't in the same realm of understanding or assumption that she was.

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't true. I don't know how many comics you've read or not, but they do use various cues/techniques in them that you wouldn't use in text writing. Those who read comics on a regular basis likely understand them.

I'd also say since you (I'm guessing) haven't read my story, you wouldn't know what's conveyed or not in terms of the languages spoken, or how I conveyed it. It was fine with regular quotes, I thought it read better with the angled quotes, my editor disagreed and I'm going along with her. That's also the part you seem to be missing -- that I'm taking them out. So long as the reader understands it, I'm fine with it.

 

[sr71plt]

I'd also say since you (I'm guessing) haven't read my story, you wouldn't know what's conveyed or not in terms of the languages spoken, or how I conveyed it. It was fine with regular quotes, I thought it read better with the angled quotes, my editor disagreed and I'm going along with her. That's also the part you seem to be missing -- that I'm taking them out. So long as the reader understands it, I'm fine with it.

I haven't seen any examples given yet. And I'll bet when I see them, an American reader will just think they are stylized double quotes--which isn't the meaning you want (or posted you want) to convey with them here.

You set forward your base on this thread. If there's more involved than you set forward, you didn't convey it.

As with the French Revolution, in the end, it didn't matter squat what Marie Antoinette understood reality to be--in this context, it matters what the readers perceive.

Do as you like. I think this is a classic case of "I don't care if the reader understands it and might have difficulty reading through it; I understand it, and they can just adjust." A few of you have pretty flatly said that.

As an editor, I'd think you'd think about thirty-six times about that, because it goes to the center of what an editor is supposed to consider in working on a manuscript.

 

[PennLady]

Ok, SR, you win. I give up. I've tried explaining and you are responding over or around it.

Fine, the angled quotes were wrong and/or misused. As I said, I'M TAKING THEM OUT (this seems to be something you refuse to acknowledge).

I asked a simple question at the beginning of this thread -- what have other people done in this situation. I've got my answers.

 

[sr71plt]

Chicago Manual of Style 11.10

". . . . In English-language contexts and translations of foreign-language works, English-style punctuation is generally used. For example, the tightly spaced suspension points (to indicate ommissions or breaks in thought) common in French, Italian, and Spanish publications should be converted to spaced periods in English publications . . . English-style quotation marks will replace the guillemets or whatever is used in the original . . ."

I found nothing in Chicago to sanction the use of guillemets in any context the French use them in English-language works.

If you find any use in American style for a quillemet--especially that the common American reader should understand--please point to it in a style authority.

Reader understanding and reading comfort supersede everything else--including the author's "Well, I know what it means."

 

[sr71plt]

I asked a simple question at the beginning of this thread -- what have other people done in this situation. I've got my answers.

Yep, and you argued about them. And you edit other people's work, and you said "Yanks should just deal." So, it went to a different plane. To what attitude an editor should have in order to give good service.

(And, unfortunately, I don't think I've won anything--because I don't really think you've accepted the point I was trying to make. But that's just the way it is, I guess.)

My last was being written and posted while your last one posted, so they aren't really in sequence.

 

[PennLady]

Yep, and you argued about them. And you edit other people's work, and you said "Yanks should just deal." So, it went to a different plane. To what attitude an editor should have in order to give good service.

(And, unfortunately, I don't think I've won anything--because I don't really think you've accepted the point I was trying to make. But that's just the way it is, I guess.)

My last was being written and posted while your last one posted, so they aren't really in sequence.

My editor uses the Chicago Manual, as you quoted, and if that's what they say, that's fine with me. I will find it and bookmark it myself for future reference; I've meant to do that anyway.

(I would note, though, that in the use of ellipses (whether it's correct or not) a couple of publishing sites that I've looked at have submission rules that require three dots with no spaces. I'm guessing it's a space-saving measure.)

 

[oggbashan]

I just put a note in my introduction and copyright statement that sometimes the characters are speaking French to each other, and write everything in British English...

Og

 

[ishtat]

There used to be a writer here called rubysen or something like that who had her characters break into Bengali occasionally. It was surprisingly effective at adding 'atmosphere' to her stories, despite the fact that many of her readership could not understand it.

Though I suppose the Indians, as the second largest National group of readers on the site might have liked it.

 

[PennLady]

There used to be a writer here called rubysen or something like that who had her characters break into Bengali occasionally. It was surprisingly effective at adding 'atmosphere' to her stories, despite the fact that many of her readership could not understand it.

Though I suppose the Indians, as the second largest National group of readers on the site might have liked it.

It should be easy enough to put in a few words here and there in my story to indicate the characters are speaking French. There are a few exchanges in French, but they're not long and I think between context and the words themselves, the meaning would be clear.

 

[Verdad]

I wasn’t so much distracted by the angle quotes as I failed to notice them. I had to read twice to understand what you meant: Brackets? What brackets? My mind just registered an otherwise correctly rendered bit of dialogue and filtered out the style of quotation marks used.

That, I guess, makes it a bad solution either way. It annoys the careful readers and slips unnoticed by the sloppy ones, failing to achieve its intended purpose both times. So I’m adding just another endorsement for what Pilot and others have already suggested and you’ve already decided to follow.

 

[Handley_Page]

If you were doing that, how would you denote it? My beta reader and I did the following:

«Adele, ma chérie, are you still here?» The man’s voice was low and cheerful.
Adele Nadeau looked up and smiled. «Bonsoir, Georges.» She covered a yawn. «I’m leaving soon. I just like to have a few quiet minutes before I go home.»

The << and >> marks denote the characters speaking in French although the words are English. Elsewhere in the story, actual French dialogue is in regular quotes and the text in italics. English, of course, is in regular text.

My e-editor does not like the << and>> marks and is making changes accordingly. I'm a little annoyed as it took some time to make sure all the marks were consistent, but the primary concern is making things clear to the reader.

I'm not surprised your editor does not like it. Are you implying that the readers are somewhat dim in understanding the different languages ? Surely not.

You put enough into the clue (Bonsiour, Georges) that the words are /were in a foreign tongue. Your readers are not stupid (at least not so stupid as to require a hammer-head guide to it being in a foreign language as in a comic book).

Let the reader work the rest out for him/her self.

 

[PennLady]

I'm not surprised your editor does not like it. Are you implying that the readers are somewhat dim in understanding the different languages ? Surely not.

You put enough into the clue (Bonsiour, Georges) that the words are /were in a foreign tongue. Your readers are not stupid (at least not so stupid as to require a hammer-head guide to it being in a foreign language as in a comic book).

Let the reader work the rest out for him/her self.

Good lord, how did this get so out of control. Oh well -- that's a thread for you, I guess.

I'm not implying my readers, or any readers, are dim. As I said -- when I originally wrote the story, I used regular quotes. The angle quotes were a suggestion from a beta reader, which I took, and obviously it was a mistake. The Chicago Style guide says no, and since that's what my editor uses, then that's what we'll use. Everybody happy now? I won't use angle quotes again.

I was simply using them as a visual clue/cue to the reader that this dialogue was in another language. It had nothing to do with thinking readers couldn't handle it otherwise, and everything to do with hoping for a smoother reading experience. Again -- wrong choice. Got it.

The comic book thing got a bit out of hand as well. I'm a comic fan although I don't buy like I used to. It's a different form of communication and writing, and I think it's unfair to say that using marks like < and > to indicate a foreign language is an overly-hard hint. In comics, there (usually) isn't a place to put "and the two continued in [language]."