references of age of characters...and rejections.

[ErosArtist]

Hi all -

I've submitted a couple of stories to Lit. Both were rejected for identical reasons; specifically, the improper use of punctuation in character dialogue.

The edits and corrections are now finished and I'm getting ready to submit the stories again. However, I have a question regarding issues of character ages and references of memory or history.

First off, I want to be clear that my stories do not contain descriptions or portrayals of sexual activity between characters under the age of 18. However, there are occasional references that allude to the character being younger than 18 at some point in their life. I want to have a better understanding of where the boundary lies in terms of character reference and grounds for story rejection.

For example:

A character identified as 18 remembers losing his/her virginity while in middle school. There's no direct reference to actual acts of her losing his/her virginity, just the reference of remembering the loss of virginity.

A character says or thinks, "I first had sex at ____" and states a number less than 18.

A character identified as 19 years old says or thinks, "I've been jerking off to my father's porn collection for years."

A character is seduced by an older neighbor when he is 23 years of age, but references fantasies and memories of her going back 10 years. Again, there's no reference to specific activity, just the reference of memory.

Thoughts?

 

[oggbashan]

It is quite simple.

No one knows anything about sex and certainly doesn't do anything sexual before their 18th birthday.

On their 18th birthday they become raging sex maniacs who are instantly experienced in the most abstruse techniques, presumably having read everything there is to know since 0001 hours on their birthday.

The rule is "no sex before 18". It is one of the few rules for stories posted on Literotica. I consider that the rule helps to protect this site and us from those who would willingly target this site for closure and legal action if sex before 18 (or whatever is a higher legal minimum in your locality) is posted here.

Please - if you can't stand this rule, post the story on another site.

Og

 

[ErosArtist]

It is quite simple.

No one knows anything about sex and certainly doesn't do anything sexual before their 18th birthday.

On their 18th birthday they become raging sex maniacs who are instantly experienced in the most abstruse techniques, presumably having read everything there is to know since 0001 hours on their birthday.

The rule is "no sex before 18". It is one of the few rules for stories posted on Literotica. I consider that the rule helps to protect this site and us from those who would willingly target this site for closure and legal action if sex before 18 (or whatever is a higher legal minimum in your locality) is posted here.

Please - if you can't stand this rule, post the story on another site.

Og

Thank you for your reply -

Let me be clear once again: I have absolutely no issue with the rule - I believe it's a very good thing and that it should be in place and enforced.

Regardless, your point is well taken.

 

[mynameisben]

Yeah. Tighten it up. There's a lot of grannies and nuns who go over these stories with a fine tooth comb. I once had a story rejected because one of my characters popped the cork off a bottle of champagne that was only 17 years old. I guess it didn't help my case much that she was one year younger still, and that she twisted the cork off in her vagina, but my point is still valid.

 

[ErosArtist]

Yeah. Tighten it up. There's a lot of grannies and nuns who go over these stories with a fine tooth comb. I once had a story rejected because one of my characters popped the cork off a bottle of champagne that was only 17 years old. I guess it didn't help my case much that she was one year younger still, and that she twisted the cork off in her vagina, but my point is still valid.

Thanks, and your point is well taken too.

 

[PennLady]

Perhaps the rules have tightened up, but I can recall a few stories where a character just SAYS that they had sex at a young age. There's no description of the sex. Specifically I'm thinking of a couple of older stories by brightlyiburn. So it seems to me someone could think about or remark on the fact that they had sex younger than 18. Dicey territory though, I guess.

 

[ErosArtist]

Perhaps the rules have tightened up, but I can recall a few stories where a character just SAYS that they had sex at a young age. There's no description of the sex. Specifically I'm thinking of a couple of older stories by brightlyiburn. So it seems to me someone could think about or remark on the fact that they had sex younger than 18. Dicey territory though, I guess.

So it would seem. Thanks for the input.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

My experience

Last year I wrote to Laurel and asked her this question:

"Can I mention that an adult character was a victim of pedophilia as a teenager? Specifically, my 23 year old female character lost her virginity at the age of 13 to a much older man. At 15 she became pregnant by an older man, and at 17 by another older man. That is basically all the questionable information that I want to mention. Is that permissible?"

Laurel replied:

"You can say that - if [you] state it as you non-specifically did below - " my 23 year old female character lost her virginity at the age of 13 to a much older man. At 15 she became pregnant by an older man, and at 17 by another older man." If you get descriptive or have a flashback scene, it will get rejected. Hope this helps!"

This should clear it up for you.

It may also be helpful to put a disclaimer in the submission notes stating that all characters are over the age of 18, and that the story does not include any sexual activity involving characters under the age of 18.

 

[ErosArtist]

Last year I wrote to Laurel and asked her this question:

"Can I mention that an adult character was a victim of pedophilia as a teenager? Specifically, my 23 year old female character lost her virginity at the age of 13 to a much older man. At 15 she became pregnant by an older man, and at 17 by another older man. That is basically all the questionable information that I want to mention. Is that permissible?"

Laurel replied:

"You can say that - if [you] state it as you non-specifically did below - " my 23 year old female character lost her virginity at the age of 13 to a much older man. At 15 she became pregnant by an older man, and at 17 by another older man." If you get descriptive or have a flashback scene, it will get rejected. Hope this helps!"

This should clear it up for you.

It may also be helpful to put a disclaimer in the submission notes stating that all characters are over the age of 18, and that the story does not include any sexual activity involving characters under the age of 18.

Thanks -

My question was specifically targeted to any reference to a character having been under 18 at the time an event in his/her life occurred, and said character remembering said event. The reference could have been to sexual activity, such as you described, without any details of that activity; or as I've been thinking after reading some of the replies, non-sexual, like a trip to a favorite restaurant.

Your clarification is much appreciated. It's very clear in my story that all characters involved in sexual acts are over the age of 18. (As a side note, I do include that info in my submission notes.) I've also made it very clear that I respect and agree with the Literotica under-age rule as it pertains to sexual activity.

The question came about as the result of one of my characters remembering the experience of being bullied in her high-school locker room and reflecting upon how she had changed emotionally as she matured. A volunteer editor who assisted me early in the story development pointed out the story may be rejected because of her being under age at that time the bullying events occurred. While there was no sexual activity involved, nudity was referenced - basically mean girls bullying another in the locker room. I have references in another story where the two main characters know each other from having grown up in the same neighborhood. Again, there are no references to sexual acts while under the age of 18, but there are ocassional references to the experience of growing up as children in the same community.

To limit any reference to any person under 18 in a story could be...for lack of a better phrase, limiting. With such interpretation of the rule, I would presume one character could not say to another "I'm the single parent of an eight year old," or "I used to come to this beach with my family when I was a child," or "it's amazing how reckless 16 year old drivers are," in any dialogue or narrative portions of a story.

I appreciate all the input here and have a much better impression of how to proceed in the future.

Thanks to all who replied.

 

[oggbashan]

...

To limit any reference to any person under 18 in a story could be...for lack of a better phrase, limiting. With such interpretation of the rule, I would presume one character could not say to another "I'm the single parent of an eight year old," or "I used to come to this beach with my family when I was a child," or "it's amazing how reckless 16 year old drivers are," in any dialogue or narrative portions of a story.

I appreciate all the input here and have a much better impression of how to proceed in the future.

Thanks to all who replied.

It is my understanding that there is no such limit in the requirement about not depicting under age sex. There can be younger people in the plot of a story as long as they do nothing sexual e.g. "We had to wait until his younger sister went to a party before we could meet at his house..."

You have to look at it from the point of view of someone trying to accuse Literotica giving encouragement to pedophiles. Any description of a person under 18 that MIGHT arouse a pedophile, particularly any references to that person having had sexual relationships before age 18, causes difficulties for the whole site and all the authors on it.

Bullying in a locker room could have sexual implications even if only lesbian sexual implications.

It is safer - not for YOU - but for this site which so many people enjoy, if every author is scrupulously careful to avoid any reference to sex before 18.

It would be easy to push the rule as far as you can without actually breaking it but it is very dangerous. A statement that "all characters are 18 or over" is not enough if you describe underdeveloped sexual characteristics or immaturity in such a way that readers can think the character is younger than 18.

There are too many people in the world and in the US who want to criminalise or ban all sexual sites on the internet just because they hate erotica in any form. In some countries I could be executed for what I have written on this site. Please don't give them ammunition.

Og

 

[baphemetis]

You have to look at it from the point of view of someone trying to accuse Literotica giving encouragement to pedophiles. Any description of a person under 18 that MIGHT arouse a pedophile, particularly any references to that person having had sexual relationships before age 18, causes difficulties for the whole site and all the authors on it.

Do you know for a fact that this is the reason this rule is in place or are you making a broad assumption?

If you know it is a fact, would you be kind enough to provide a reference? A URL to site rules or a post or PM from the site administrators, for example.

I know there is a rule forbidding the depiction of underage sex. However, I know of no official statement as to why the rule is in place. While it seems that your guess is that it is to protect the site, my guess is that it simply because the administrators find this type of erotica distasteful.

I would like to know the real reason, rather than guessing. If there has been an official statement, please share it.

 

[Darkniciad]

Damn, but this was a nightmare of a search *laugh*

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=645556&postcount=4

I've always believed that words are just words. I don't put fiction in the same class as reality - if it was, then war novels and murder mysteries would be appalling. I've also been a teen, and know that teens are sexual beings. We're not saying that no one under 18 has ever had any sexual thoughts. We know that most people lose their virginity under the age of 18. I know I did.

I know it's an inconvenience for writers at times, but I want you to know that our over-18 policy is not born out of some moral nor legal standard (though we are staunchly against pedophilia). It is there to keep us out of unnecessary trouble. No matter where we draw the line, there will be people who think it unfair. However, as we are not ready to publish stories involving children, we must draw a line. Minors in the US are those under the age of 18, so that's the safest line to draw. If we were in GB, the age would probably be 16...and those in countries where 12 is the legal age of consent might find THAT constraining.

Here in the US, the age issue is a touchier deal than rape or anything else. Technically, fiction featuring under age sex is perfectly legal - as is fiction which features murder or rape - but those currently "in power" would like to make such fiction (as well as all adult material) illegal. A man was recently put in jail for writing fictitious stories about underage children IN HIS PRIVATE JOURNAL. The man was on parole, but it still sets a very bad legal precedent. Like I said, we feel the need to draw the line somewhere, and 18 just makes the most sense for us in many ways.

That said, we have no problem with writers of such stories or sites that publish such stories. It's just not something we publish. There are sites that won't publish incest. There are sites that feel comfortable publishing a wider variety of fiction. Asstr.org, I think, will accept underage, and White Shadow does as well.

If you ever have any questions regarding this or anything else in the submission guidelines or any part of the site, please drop me a PM or an email or start a thread here.

 

[oggbashan]

Thank you, Darkniciad.

I had read that, but I'm not sure I would have been able to find it again.

The statement from Laurel that you found understates the case. If you want to search the net you will find some very disquieting statements from some groups campaigning against pornography. While many of us might agree with a ban on the more revolting examples of necrophilia, snuff and whatever doesn't appeal to us, there are groups who want a total ban on anything sexual.

Unfortunately for those of us who write erotica, some of these groups have influence with politicians.

Og

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Damn, but this was a nightmare of a search *laugh*

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=645556&postcount=4

I find it interesting that the rule is based on age of consent laws, rather than obscenity laws. The age of consent varies from state to state. In fact, as of 2010, the age of consent was 18 in only 12 states. In the other 38 states, it is either 16 or 17. (For a complete list, click here).

The site owners have set the cut-off line at the most conservative point possible. This probably makes sense, as age of consent laws have been creeping upward for years. As recently as 10 years ago there were still states where the age of consent was 14. In the 20+ years that I have lived in Florida, I have seen the age of consent raised from 14 to 16, and again to 18. I am not aware of any state where it has gone down.

 

[baphemetis]

Damn, but this was a nightmare of a search *laugh*

Thank you so much for sharing that Darkniciad. I have tried searching myself and I wasn't able to find this. Reposting this message really clears up a lot of unanswered questions.

 

[ErosArtist]

Damn, but this was a nightmare of a search *laugh*

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=645556&postcount=4

Thanks!

 

[Darkniciad]

Ah, it was interesting. In the process of digging that up, I found some old threads about when some of the categories were created and when views were beta-tested.

Had to resort to Google, as the forum search features are iffy at best.

 

[lovecraft68]

Hi all -

I've submitted a couple of stories to Lit. Both were rejected for identical reasons; specifically, the improper use of punctuation in character dialogue.

The edits and corrections are now finished and I'm getting ready to submit the stories again. However, I have a question regarding issues of character ages and references of memory or history.

First off, I want to be clear that my stories do not contain descriptions or portrayals of sexual activity between characters under the age of 18. However, there are occasional references that allude to the character being younger than 18 at some point in their life. I want to have a better understanding of where the boundary lies in terms of character reference and grounds for story rejection.

For example:

A character identified as 18 remembers losing his/her virginity while in middle school. There's no direct reference to actual acts of her losing his/her virginity, just the reference of remembering the loss of virginity.

A character says or thinks, "I first had sex at ____" and states a number less than 18.

A character identified as 19 years old says or thinks, "I've been jerking off to my father's porn collection for years."

A character is seduced by an older neighbor when he is 23 years of age, but references fantasies and memories of her going back 10 years. Again, there's no reference to specific activity, just the reference of memory.

Thoughts?

Okay honestly the rules are ridiculously paranoid. Ogg is right when he says no one existed sexually before 18 however it may depend on the day or where it is in the story because I don;t feel they edit the same way all the time. i will give you my 2 personal examples.
First one was one that was rejected. I started the story saying; "I was sixteen years old and lying in my bed" what happens is the character has a nightmare, he wakes up screaming his 18 year old sister comes in. I describe that she is dressed even what she is wearing. She lies down (dressed) next to him and puts her arm around him and comforts him and stays in his bed. fully dressed. It was rejected for underage and literally nothing happened.

Now here is the opposite example. in a chapter in the same series the sister who was sexually molested as a child is having a nightmare I rolled the dice and the wording was "I was nine years old and Frank was on top of me. not just on top of me but inside me hurting me tearing me apart." this got through and I couldn't be more damn obvious.
Any outright reference will get you booted and it is 50/50 on someone saying "I had sex when iwas 16 in order to fool them put all characters 18+ at the top in an authors note then never really say the age. or don't say the age for sex.
Example I had a story where I said the girls 18th b-day was last month further down she has a flashback of her first sexual encounter (not sex some heavy petting, she got fingered and gave the guy a handjob) but i say "six months ago which meant she was 17 at the time. the usually won;t catch things like that you just need to avoid #'s

 

[Darkniciad]

Odds are that the rejection on the first one was a quick-scan, knee-jerk due to the necessity of speed reading to approve so many stories a day. Odds are that the second one getting through without a rejection is the same.

Lesson #1: If you believe a rejection was in error, re-submit unchanged ( unless you find typos or other oops moments ) with a note in the notes section about why you believe so. Many of the cases reported on the forum of this nature are approved without a problem on the second time through the queue.

Laurel hath but two eyes and only 24 hours in a day. Mistakes happen

 

[lovecraft68]

Odds are that the rejection on the first one was a quick-scan, knee-jerk due to the necessity of speed reading to approve so many stories a day. Odds are that the second one getting through without a rejection is the same.

Lesson #1: If you believe a rejection was in error, re-submit unchanged ( unless you find typos or other oops moments ) with a note in the notes section about why you believe so. Many of the cases reported on the forum of this nature are approved without a problem on the second time through the queue.

Laurel hath but two eyes and only 24 hours in a day. Mistakes happen

In my first example I simply changed 16 to 18. It was a little annoying in the sense that i went out of my way to say it was nonsexual and I was trying to establish the emotional bond between the brother/sister before she actually seduced him down the line. It was literally the first line in the story and that was why I feel it was caught. My second example that never should have got through was on page 3 of a 5 page story their eyes were tired by then.
It's their site and I follow the rules they set in place. I think personally underage is ridiculous. I mean I don;t have an age kink and I have no desire to write or read about 13 year olds having sex. But in the incest and first time categories there would in reality be sex at 16/17 it's called realism. I am currently working on getting my series published on smashwords and it is the same guidelines no under age. My original pre lit version of my incest series has them hooking up at 18/16 I changed it for lit and looks as if I will have to keep it that way to get in print.
Once again it's the rule and no big deal except and I never pass up a chance to rant on this. It pisses me off under age is scrutinized while the non consent section exists. Reluctance is watered down non consent and different as it is still always the Woman's choice. Rape is a violent crime and is completely offensive to anyone who has ever been or known someone who has been raped. Some of the stories are hardcore enough to make you shudder and I don;t want to meet the type of person who can stroke to them. I believe in fair and equal treatment in all aspects of life. If people want to stroke to women being abused it is their right (Just stay away from my daughters or I will exercise the right to snap your neck) well it should be others right to write about 17 year old's having sex. If you want to still ban the underage then get this other disgusting category off the site. For the record I wonder at the under age as most states now have age of consent at 16. Oh well it is what it is but to repeat my answer to the OP it is a crapshoot unless you are really blatant.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Yeah. Tighten it up. There's a lot of grannies and nuns who go over these stories with a fine tooth comb. I once had a story rejected because one of my characters popped the cork off a bottle of champagne that was only 17 years old. I guess it didn't help my case much that she was one year younger still, and that she twisted the cork off in her vagina, but my point is still valid.

Damn, even the champagne has to be 18 or older? Good thing I'm drinking 20-year Scotch!

 

[Darkniciad]

It pisses me off under age is scrutinized while the non consent section exists.

I take it that you would be surprised to learn that huge numbers of stories in that category -- and in other categories where the theme is used -- get rejected?

I'd be willing to bet that the "physical or mental cruelty" ( i.e. rapist fantasy as opposed to rape fantasy ) rejection is the #2 content based rejection on Lit. It's hardly unscrutinized.

 

[lovecraft68]

I take it that you would be surprised to learn that huge numbers of stories in that category -- and in other categories where the theme is used -- get rejected?

I'd be willing to bet that the "physical or mental cruelty" ( i.e. rapist fantasy as opposed to rape fantasy ) rejection is the #2 content based rejection on Lit. It's hardly unscrutinized.

Out of curiosity how do you know how many are getting rejected? Do you know authors who have had a lot kicked out? And if that's the case if Lit is trying to "weed" them out then why not ditch the damn non consent and just have the "reluctance". This is a tough topic for me as my best friend growing up (actually we are still best friends) was raped. As usual the police were useless and she even got a veiled "boys will be boys" comment. this happened 25 years ago she still has nightmares and occasionally even has issues with sex even though she is married and they have been together for ten years. I "made it right" back then and never regretted the 6 months I did for it. To this day I avoid the conversation's in bars because i have a habit of challenging any man who thinks it's funny because to me only the most spineless men hurt children, women, the elderly, and even animals. To me the type that can stroke it to a full out rape story falls in that category. Most hardcore sex offenders have libraries of this stuff on their computer and under their bed. coincidence? not after the 100th one no.

 

[Darkniciad]

It's simple enough to infer when that rejection is the second most ranted about rejection behind 18+, and I've conferred with quite a few authors over the years struggling with that rejection.

Like it or not, there are many women who have rape fantasies. They would never want to experience the real thing, but fantasy about a powerful man taking them is a major turn-on. My first storyline here is heavy on non-consentual/reluctance elements -- probably of a severity that would get it rejected, were it outside the sci-fi/fantasy category -- and it was originally written for one woman's eyes, directly to her kinks. Suffice to say, I hit the mark and reaped the benefits of how much the story turned her on.

I strongly suspect that is the reason for the category. You have to remember that Laurel and Manu had a much more intimate experience with the authorship and readership when the site first started and the categories were created. They had a lot of direct feedback about what the readers and authors wanted from the site, and that ( + continuing feedback ) is what they're using as guidelines for what gets posted or rejected today, whether it be your pet peeve or somebody else's.

Consider that most sites that will accept any work with characters under 18 also accepts beastiality, pedo, necrophilia, snuff, and any other dark kink under the sun. Then, ask yourself if the ( sometimes major ) inconvenience of the 18+ rule is worth the trade-off of not having your story sitting in the new release list with something of that nature.

I have at least one story that can't be posted to Lit because the main characters were 16 at the time, and I decided that artificially aging them was not an option. It's a nuisance, because it's part of a series, and this story offers major background into the dominant character in my fantasy world.

I shrugged, posted it only at the other site where I post, and went on. I don't like it, but I understand the rules in place here, as I did when I wrote it.

The reasons given to abolish the category where most of your stories reside are little different ( and frankly, no less valid ) than the ones you're presenting here. Incest is illegal. People who experience it for real are often scarred for life -- even when consenting while it was happening.

How many times have you said "It's only fantasy" when people ranted about one of your incest stories? How many times has that been ignored and followed up with an ever-increasing stream of venom?

Something to think about.

Out of curiosity how do you know how many are getting rejected? Do you know authors who have had a lot kicked out? And if that's the case if Lit is trying to "weed" them out then why not ditch the damn non consent and just have the "reluctance". This is a tough topic for me as my best friend growing up (actually we are still best friends) was raped. As usual the police were useless and she even got a veiled "boys will be boys" comment. this happened 25 years ago she still has nightmares and occasionally even has issues with sex even though she is married and they have been together for ten years. I "made it right" back then and never regretted the 6 months I did for it. To this day I avoid the conversation's in bars because i have a habit of challenging any man who thinks it's funny because to me only the most spineless men hurt children, women, the elderly, and even animals. To me the type that can stroke it to a full out rape story falls in that category. Most hardcore sex offenders have libraries of this stuff on their computer and under their bed. coincidence? not after the 100th one no.

 

[racheldearest]

[deleted]