Incest Amazon and Hypocrisy

[lovecraft68]

So getting ready to put up my first e-book on Smashwords who of course pretty much has an almost anything goes policy (for the moment anyway). From there of course I would love t o push the book to Amazon and will definitely try. However I have found out that after allowing it for awhile Amazon is now starting to pull incestuous works from their site. Supposedly there is no actual law against it but Amazon is caving to the infamous moral groups who don't think it should be there. I will still take a shot as I've been told by a couple of different published authors that they mainly are going after big sellers that draw attention and if your book sort of wallows near the bottom and flies under the radar it can stay there if that's true then I should be golden.

Now I have been told I could "water down" my story slip the word "step" or "foster" in there and Amazon would be more than happy to sell it. Perhaps if I though I could make a living off of this I would think about it but seeing this is a hobby I am going to stick to what my true "vision" of the story is. Like here it's their site their rules. But I do have a question for those out there when it comes down to plain old hypocrisy and favoritism

Am I wrong or is VC Andrews monster selling Flowers in the Attic series as well as all of it's spin offs based on incest? I never read all of them and it's been years since I read the first couple but I also believe some of the sex is under age. I looked this morning and it is all over Amazon and it is certainly a big enough name that they should be aware of it. Yet they do and always will carry it. Do they justify it because "Flowers" is fiction and not erotica? For that matter the entire thing is ridiculous and targeting only the erotica genre. There is an excellent author named Michael Slade who writes what I refer to as "Non supernatural horror" think along the lines of Silence of the Lambs and Seven but even more twisted and gruesome. A couple of his works if anyone is interested is "Ghoul" and "Headhunter" these books are filthy every possible violent as well as sexually violent thing you can thing of as well as in Ghoul guess what? Incest. Still there. Anyway not looking to hire a lawyer and challenge anything and certainly wouldn't want to actually see those works pulled just venting and making a point. Seeing if anyone else agrees with me and for the record before JBJ or some of his ilk claims this is whining it is not. I just don't happen to fall under the classification of a "lemming" and am willing to accept having alleged "moral" groups determine what I or anyone else should be writing or reading. As we all know through history these groups contain some of the sickest closet fucks to ever walk the earth. At least I wear my depravity on my sleeve.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

I think you might have started posting just after these threads fizzled, but you might find some of the info helpful:

Opening a can of worms" Selena Kitt Banned on Amazon...
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=743479

Amazon alternative
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=743523


Happy reading!

 

[lovecraft68]

I think you might have started posting just after these threads fizzled, but you might find some of the info helpful:

Opening a can of worms" Selena Kitt Banned on Amazon...
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=743479

Amazon alternative
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=743523


Happy reading!

Thank you. What is interesting is at one point I had checked into excessia. I think maybe around October and they were advertised as publishing erotica of "all levels of heat" which included incest. I have to say that when looking at the absolutely moral less crap that is on TV like MTV's 15 and pregnant it blows my mind that anything is being pulled from anywhere.

 

[sr71plt]

eXcessica was swamped by submissions and is, I think, now closed to anyone but its established authors (of which there are some 70 or 80 of them, so it's already a big group).

eXcessica was started from here. Maybe someone who writes incest would be interested in starting up a new publishing house.

 

[lovecraft68]

eXcessica was swamped by submissions and is, I think, now closed to anyone but its established authors (of which there are some 70 or 80 of them, so it's already a big group).

eXcessica was started from here. Maybe someone who writes incest would be interested in starting up a new publishing house.

Hmmm Maybe! Unfortunately the budding writing career, full time job, e-bay store (left overs from my comic business) 21/18 daughters and wife would eliminate this incest writer as a candidate (oh and lack of know how and resources may just factor in.) I just find myself shaking my head that incest is that reviled. Now in all honesty let's face it unless you happen to be of am alternative lifestyle you have to admit Gay Male has a pretty strong effect that is definitely a hated or misunderstood genre if it's "not your thing" but they could never touch it because of equal rights. I guess since technically it's a crime incest fans have no rights. Odd to see what happens next as Carl east also was telling me that Amazon is starting to go after BDSM so when everyone just keeps sitting there and taking it it will be curious to see what big brother will be letting us read a couple of years from now.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, I don't think that GM is anywhere close to incest in the world of reviled. I've tried the incest genre a couple of times but never have managed the pure rendering of it. In one, my characters don't know they are father/daughter until too late and in the others they aren't actually blood related.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hmmm Maybe! Unfortunately the budding writing career, full time job, e-bay store (left overs from my comic business) 21/18 daughters and wife would eliminate this incest writer as a candidate (oh and lack of know how and resources may just factor in.) I just find myself shaking my head that incest is that reviled. Now in all honesty let's face it unless you happen to be of am alternative lifestyle you have to admit Gay Male has a pretty strong effect that is definitely a hated or misunderstood genre if it's "not your thing" but they could never touch it because of equal rights. I guess since technically it's a crime incest fans have no rights. Odd to see what happens next as Carl east also was telling me that Amazon is starting to go after BDSM so when everyone just keeps sitting there and taking it it will be curious to see what big brother will be letting us read a couple of years from now.

Amazon is not Big Brother.

Amazon doesn't "let you read" it lets writers sell-- or not. You want to sell incest? Get together with your incest writing buddies and start an incest selling website. That's what other speciality writers have done, after all...

 

[lovecraft68]

Oh, I don't think that GM is anywhere close to incest in the world of reviled. I've tried the incest genre a couple of times but never have managed the pure rendering of it. In one, my characters don't know they are father/daughter until too late and in the others they aren't actually blood related.

My brother and sister were separated for 12 years (from 4/6 to 16/18) to try to take some of the "sting" out of it as they didn't really grow up together. Ideally they were to be a younger but under age is another taboo.
as for gay male I suppose it depends on the "crowd" go into your average blue collar bar and give them the choice of brother sister or guy/guy. let me know how much you want to bet on it.

 

[sr71plt]

as for gay male I suppose it depends on the "crowd" go into your average blue collar bar and give them the choice of brother sister or guy/guy. let me know how much you want to bet on it.

I think you might get beat down either way. But a good number in that bar will either be gay or will have had sex with a relative.

 

[lovecraft68]

Amazon is not Big Brother.

Amazon doesn't "let you read" it lets writers sell-- or not. You want to sell incest? Get together with your incest writing buddies and start an incest selling website. That's what other speciality writers have done, after all...

Amazon is not big brother. The groups masquerading as the moral majority whose pressure they succumb time and again to are. As for your idea it is a good one. Providing once again there is a soul out there who in addition to every day life can swing getting it done. Of course as I think of it. If incest is that big of a deal how long before someone tries to "shut down" the site. technically they can't but at some point it would draw the attention of someone and a stink would be made. Some bible thumper who is only against it because his sister turned down his advances. You know what I love about religious zealots? Well before i say this let me say that in fantasy incest is a fun sexy literary device (to me anyway) but in reality yeah a little twisted but if you go back to Genesis who was fucking who to populate the planet? were Adam and eve's kids not brother sister? Maybe that's why as a race we are so fucked up we are all inbred! Just have to go way back to find it.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think you might get beat down either way. But a good number in that bar will either be gay or will have had sex with a relative.

You know I think here in RI anyway the Gay Male would get you beat down quicker. I'm sure it's gone on but we are not as associated with inbreeding as other parts of the country. I play in both a 8 ball league and a dart league so I ma exposed to a fair amount of knuckle draggers. I will start the pole next week and let you know what gets me swung at first.

Now funny story kind of. These are the type of guy in general would be surprised to know that i can read let alone write anything but a few months back celebrating my team winning the division i got absolutely sloshed and started telling some of these goons I write erotica. I then slurring by then I'm sure start to explain it was incest. No one hit me (although i have a black belt in kenpo and they all know it) a couple seemed more than a little interested but the majority were giving me that look you might give something you found on your shoe. I'll try telling them I write gay male next

 

[sr71plt]

All speculation, of course, from both sides.

As far as Amazon.com goes, though, they've made a choice. My GM books are selling just fine there.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Amazon is not big brother. The groups masquerading as the moral majority whose pressure they succumb time and again to are. As for your idea it is a good one. Providing once again there is a soul out there who in addition to every day life can swing getting it done. Of course as I think of it. If incest is that big of a deal how long before someone tries to "shut down" the site. technically they can't but at some point it would draw the attention of someone and a stink would be made. Some bible thumper who is only against it because his sister turned down his advances. You know what I love about religious zealots? Well before i say this let me say that in fantasy incest is a fun sexy literary device (to me anyway) but in reality yeah a little twisted but if you go back to Genesis who was fucking who to populate the planet? were Adam and eve's kids not brother sister? Maybe that's why as a race we are so fucked up we are all inbred! Just have to go way back to find it.

this is all speculation, my friend.

Write what you want to write, post it here, post it there, post it to any site whose owners welcome it. The internet is a do it yourself proposition. Someone did amazon.com themselves. Someone did Yahoo themselves. Someone did ebay themselves, and etsy, and literotica.

You've showed up late in the game, and you're enjoying the fruits of those DIY-ers-- and bitching about how they aren't doing it according to your lights.

Stop the whining. Do it.

 

[PennLady]

What I always find interesting in discussions like this is that Amazon is a private company, huge though it is. They can decide what to sell, and not, and I honestly don't consider that any kind of censorship. It may make it more difficult to get a work to potential readers/buyers, similar to when Walmart refuses to sell an album or book, but it is not illegal and it is not censorship, although I can see where it's frustrating. There are other outlets, and it would take time to find them, but they are there, or the tools for you to create your own outlet are there. Best of luck.

 

[lovecraft68]

What I always find interesting in discussions like this is that Amazon is a private company, huge though it is. They can decide what to sell, and not, and I honestly don't consider that any kind of censorship. It may make it more difficult to get a work to potential readers/buyers, similar to when Walmart refuses to sell an album or book, but it is not illegal and it is not censorship, although I can see where it's frustrating. There are other outlets, and it would take time to find them, but they are there, or the tools for you to create your own outlet are there. Best of luck.

Like I always say about this site; it's their site and their rules. I will abide by them. What I find frustrating isn't their choice not to carry it. It's the fact they were carrying it and some one said oh no I'm offended now it's off the shelf. To me it's not really about me or this category in general as I said in my original post this is a hobby for me (along with it being a goal i set for myself that I would someday publish a novel) I am not going to make a living so it's not about that. I feel bad for people who were making decent money and can't anymore. To me this is about a trend. As I said another author told me they are starting to target BDSM. what next? will it be gay male? maybe group sex maybe lesbian. Bottom line is this is just an extension of "freedom of speech" becoming "freedom of speech except for..." You know I don't get very political but when people think of censorship Big Brother(1984) comes to mind along with Brave New World sometimes. even Animal farm on occasions. Tell you what as ridiculous as it sounds there is a movie called V for Vendetta. It is based on a comic book series by a British writer named Alan Moore. Give it a watch sometime. behind the slightly far fetched plot and of course comic book style action this movie delivers a pretty strong punch. This really could happen in a few years. All we can hope is it doesn't end up being JBJ's face up on that monitor.

 

[sr71plt]

Did Amazon.com announce its reasons and motivations for choosing not to carry non-mainstream incest? I must have missed that. Source?

 

[lovecraft68]

this is all speculation, my friend.

Write what you want to write, post it here, post it there, post it to any site whose owners welcome it. The internet is a do it yourself proposition. Someone did amazon.com themselves. Someone did Yahoo themselves. Someone did ebay themselves, and etsy, and literotica.

You've showed up late in the game, and you're enjoying the fruits of those DIY-ers-- and bitching about how they aren't doing it according to your lights.

Stop the whining. Do it.

Love it. Absolutely love it. Express an opinion and it's whining. Guess they were whining back when they were throwing tea into the harbor a couple of hundred years ago. hey anyone who reads this post who does not like the Obama administration well the answer is right here in Stella's post. If you don't like the man STOP WHINING and form your own government others have done it.
Yes Stella Bill gates created the internet, and someone spawned Amazon and two clowns looking to sell pez created E-bay. Now anyone who has come after has no reason to complain about anything. It's all good just get right to the front of the punch line and do a nice big shot of kool aid baby.
If you paid attention to my damn post I was challenging the picking and choosing of what they were looking at. Incest runs rampant in fiction but it's harder to spot and lets face it VC Andrews makes Amazon a lot of money. But it's gone from incest to BDSM and who knows what next. Maybe those wonderful butch stories you like to write.
Yes sure I could, or someone more capable than I, could say "Incest writers unite" and form a special site or publishing company last i checked it's still within our rights. maybe someone will. But for me I do not have the time or the where withal to give it a shot. I did purchase my domain last Friday for my stories under a pen name. I will now decide to push incest on it, not just my own but maybe I'll spend the time to see if i can figure out a way to let others do it as well but in the end you missed the entire damn point. The people at Amazon don't give a rats ass about incest they were making sales. It's an issue because some one WHINED and said "oh oh I am soooo offended oh take it away" and they did. I am sure Selena Kitt made them some decent money but she got the boot. So my point is who is next?
As for whining and not doing. Please Stella you strike as way to smart to toss out general statements like that. You don't know me. In addition to always holding a steady job to make sure my kids had what they needed I have pursued several dreams in my life and have taken a shot at all of them (now it's writing) Between my wife and I we have owned four small businesses and she is currently trying another. Now have they all been successful well obviously not but I DID what I wanted to do I walked the walk thank you very much and usually at the cost of my own sanity and health as 80 hours a week for years at a time is not healthy for anyone. So please at the end of the day I don't need someone who doesn't know a goddamn thing about me tell me I am not a "doer" Just remember all this when your local store/tv station/ or web site takes away something you like because someone else complained. make sure when they do you don't say anything but lead an immediate coop against them!

 

[sr71plt]

Repeat: Did Amazon.com announce its reasons and motivations for choosing not to carry non-mainstream incest? I must have missed that. Source?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Repeat: Did Amazon.com announce its reasons and motivations for choosing not to carry non-mainstream incest? I must have missed that. Source?

You know, I am not sure if they've ever made a statement. My Google fu isn't working today?

here's the thread on the amazon forum;
Link

Has it gone to BDSM? I'm not finding any corroboration of that at the moment.

 

[lovecraft68]

You know, I am not sure if they've ever made a statement. My Google fu isn't working today?

here's the thread on the amazon forum;
Link

Has it gone to BDSM? I'm not finding any corroboration of that at the moment.

If you google Incest/publishers a bunch of links come up and several near the top talk about "how although there is no law saying incest cannot be published publishers and web sites are being urged not to promote or carry it." That is not verbatim of course but is the gist of a ton of links on there. As for BDSM that came from another author who has had many of his incest tales taken down so I am hearing that second hand but I believe in another thread about "how much erotica is acceptable in fiction" it's mentioned. The link you posted seems to almost say it's a "mistake" and other works have been targeted the first however to me didn't count because it was also under aged incest which is a double whammy and isn't tolerated even on smashwords or lit for that matter. I came across the google links when I was initially searching for an e-publisher as I was finding out by working my way down a list that another author was kind enough to provide to me that many won;t touch the subject. Smashwords is the easiest solution they accept pretty much anything and I can then try to push it wherever I want and see if it sticks. Who the hell knows it could fly under the radar on Amazon anything is worth a shot. If they boot it they boot it. I'll just have to go home and whine about it.
However I have to say that scrolling through the link that Stella provided I was blown away by the post that mentions that Amazon should have an adult section. They don't? are you kidding? See I won't buy from them or even e-bay(even though I sold there for years) I do the best I can to support brick and mortar stores but I find it hard to believe that erotica is floating around there next Stephen King books.

 

[Stella_Omega]

nope, no adult section. I think the theory is that retail websites are adult by default, nd minors are not really permitted to buy anything. Stupid, I agree, but that's what I seem to recall.

Whereas, non-commercial sites like fanfiction.net make you jump through three or four hoops before they let you into the adult section-- which actually has a separate url, adultfanfiction.net.

 

[lovecraft68]

nope, no adult section. I think the theory is that retail websites are adult by default, nd minors are not really permitted to buy anything. Stupid, I agree, but that's what I seem to recall.

Whereas, non-commercial sites like fanfiction.net make you jump through three or four hoops before they let you into the adult section-- which actually has a separate url, adultfanfiction.net.

So no wonder these people are being offended make a typo on a search and who the hell knows what's showing up. And lets face it even though kids shouldn't be on there shopping you know damn well they are. It doesn't seem like it should be a hard thing to do (make an adult section) unless they think it would be bad for their rep. to have one. Now that I am thinking about it. I should change the name of my book to something with the word family in it so it comes up on lot's of hits and really causes some seizures.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Has it gone to BDSM? I'm not finding any corroboration of that at the moment.

They removed two books with "rape" in the title. Then two months later they decided, "Nevermind" and put them back up.

Three of my incest titles were banned from Amazon - which made my sales at Barnes and Noble skyrocket. (Thank you Amazon?)

They recently banned two books (one from Excessica) for incest between STEP-relations. But they did put the books back up when they were informed there was no actual biological incest.

They are also removing anything underage - so sex between 16 year olds is out, even if you're in England, where it's the age of consent, sorry.

They were also removing bestiality works - but then published "Me and My Great Dane." (Not ours) That went to erotica bestseller status before it was removed.

They're being ridiculously inconsistent.

But if you do want to publish your book, just change it to "foster" or "step" relations and it will be fine.

As for Excessica, it's true - we're no longer accepting incest. We never did accept bestiality or underage sex. If we can't upload it to our major distributors, there's little point in publishing it, I'm afraid. And we're currently closed to submissions.


ETA: "I am sure Selena Kitt made them some decent money but she got the boot."

She's still making decent money

BTW, the VC Andrews argument doesn't hold water. VC Andrews didn't write incest for the purpose of arousal and titillation. We're talking about incest fiction whose purpose is just that. I don't think there's anything wrong with that personally - consenting adults and all. But comparing VC Andrews to the stuff Amazon is pulling is an apples/oranges thing.

 

[Jake Marlow]

My publisher told me this is all in reaction to that pedophile guide that was self published through Amazon late last year. Amazon swept through and eliminated all of the incest erotica they could find and also anything with anyone underage that had slipped through.

I have an ebook awaiting publication that invovles a woman sleeping with her brother-in-law, and the publisher is antsy about putting that out in this climate. They decided to do it, but warned me to not be surprised if Amazon de-lists it.

Amazon does have a certain ability to choose what people read and don't because of their size. They control about 75% of the ebook market, so just like when Wal-Mart decides not to sell a book or sell a DVD or album, it severely impacts everyone invovled and at a certain point publishers will simply choose not to publish something because they won't make money on it.

 

[lovecraft68]

My publisher told me this is all in reaction to that pedophile guide that was self published through Amazon late last year. Amazon swept through and eliminated all of the incest erotica they could find and also anything with anyone underage that had slipped through.

I have an ebook awaiting publication that invovles a woman sleeping with her brother-in-law, and the publisher is antsy about putting that out in this climate. They decided to do it, but warned me to not be surprised if Amazon de-lists it.

Amazon does have a certain ability to choose what people read and don't because of their size. They control about 75% of the ebook market, so just like when Wal-Mart decides not to sell a book or sell a DVD or album, it severely impacts everyone invovled and at a certain point publishers will simply choose not to publish something because they won't make money on it.

Of course it would be something like that. One ridiculous thing screwing it up for everyone else. First off Amazon could have their cake and eat it to if they made the effort to have an adult section. Hell even e-bay has adult verification auctions. As for not putting something out because Amazon may not take it? well in plain English Fuck that! I have worked my ass off for close to a year on what will be a trilogy and it is an incest story i am not putting it aside or watering them down to "foster" brother and sister. i will put it on Smashwords and they will send it off to whoever they can and I will try to submit myself on Amazon maybe it will fly maybe not. I don;t plan on making a living on it so if they don;t I don't care.
For the record Jake at the risk of sounding like a jerk ask your publisher what the fuck he/she is smoking since when is an in law incest? Their your wife or husbands sister brother there is no blood relation there it is not incest. If your publisher is getting that paranoid find another.