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[Senna Jawa]

I was not commenting much on the wave after wave of (pseudo-)poetic challenges at Literotica. They give you an adrenaline rush. They give you a pretext for social interactions. ... And they damage your chances for getting better at poetry.

I'd finally want to suggest to go easy on challenges and competitions, to slow down. Challenge yourself, yes, but in a less rigid, less formal way. Let the challenge be more conceptual, let it be about writing a better poem, or acquiring some new skill, new understanding... but without the points, deadlines, rules... Shift the accent and focus toward poetry.

And one more specific point. I am all for all kind of forms in poetry. But they are not an end unto themselves. Their idea was to assist authors in writing good poems. Thus learning superficially one more form, and fulfilling its requirements is but a first step. When repeating just the first step a lot you brainwash yourself. The goal should be the depth and refinement rather than covering a lot of territory.

 

[butters]

I was not commenting much on the wave after wave of (pseudo-)poetic challenges at Literotica. They give you an adrenaline rush. They give you a pretext for social interactions. ... And they damage your chances for getting better at poetry.

A forum, a community, has that social element that acts as a gel to hold things together, especially when it's been seeing a threadbare time of things. the gel, in the form of social interaction and challenges, acts as a petri-dish for new growth. of course it's not the be-all and end all of a poetry forum, but i don't agree with your thinking that it's actively harmful to the development of poetic talent. to get better at something, we have to do it, actively engage in the work ... if a forum is a little slow, a tad sterile even, social interaction is frequently the best way forward. it encourages people to read and comment on the writings of others and not be totally engrossed in their own bubble. reading and commenting help one get a better perspective of one's own strengths and weaknesses.

an adrenaline rush? hmmmn, i found them fun, interesting, and pleasurable if i managed to write something i enjoyed reading as well as others did, and the delights to be found in the originality and skills of other writers' works. an adrenaline rush seems a bit overstated to me.

I'd finally want to suggest to go easy on challenges and competitions, to slow down. Challenge yourself, yes, but in a less rigid, less formal way. Let the challenge be more conceptual, let it be about writing a better poem, or acquiring some new skill, new understanding... but without the points, deadlines, rules... Shift the accent and focus toward poetry.

that's generally the next step in the process, SJ, once a forum is actively participated in ... i still refuse to agree with your reasoning, though, that some of the material produced within these challenges was non-poetry. ok, some was merely for shit and giggles - and that's ok too, as it's all practise in ways to express ourselves. some of the best poetry i have ever read has used some form of structure as the bones on which to hang its meat. i would enjoy seeing more 'conceptualising', but not at the expense of cheapening what many of us here have enjoyed.

And one more specific point. I am all for all kind of forms in poetry. But they are not an end unto themselves. Their idea was to assist authors in writing good poems. Thus learning superficially one more form, and fulfilling its requirements is but a first step. When repeating just the first step a lot you brainwash yourself. The goal should be the depth and refinement rather than covering a lot of territory.

i absolutely agree with this last paragraph of yours, with the exception of your choice of 'brainwash'... and whilst i agree 100 percent with your final sentence, gaining knowledge of new forms is not a bad thing either, especially since one of us might find we excel in one of those specific styles.

 

[Angeline]

I was not commenting much on the wave after wave of (pseudo-)poetic challenges at Literotica. They give you an adrenaline rush. They give you a pretext for social interactions. ... And they damage your chances for getting better at poetry.

I'd finally want to suggest to go easy on challenges and competitions, to slow down. Challenge yourself, yes, but in a less rigid, less formal way. Let the challenge be more conceptual, let it be about writing a better poem, or acquiring some new skill, new understanding... but without the points, deadlines, rules... Shift the accent and focus toward poetry.

And one more specific point. I am all for all kind of forms in poetry. But they are not an end unto themselves. Their idea was to assist authors in writing good poems. Thus learning superficially one more form, and fulfilling its requirements is but a first step. When repeating just the first step a lot you brainwash yourself. The goal should be the depth and refinement rather than covering a lot of territory.

Poet Guy's poem a week (or 52 poems a year) is a good challenge as it is open as to what one writes and I like the idea of more people giving feedback. But I know some people will be at a loss as to what constitutes helpful feedback. You, I know, know a lot about this. Maybe you could offer some suggestions.

PS I had no idea you were such a handsome devil. Had I known in the past I might have flirted with you more, darn it.

 

[Senna Jawa]

some was merely for shit and giggles - and that's ok too

For the sake of the social interaction it was ok. In the context of art, it's harmful--it decreases potential for writing well.

It's ok to joke. It's ok to write poems on various different occasion, some of them light. But each time one should do their best or better. There is no excuse. It's ok to post, and then to continue to work on a piece, to get feedback, to post again, etc. But one should never say: I've written it just for ... Anything one writes and posts should be a result of an internal (in your mind), intensive, self-critical feedback loop. Some pieces are short, some long. Some have more weight than some other. But all of them should strive at the highest possible quality.

 

[butters]

For the sake of the social interaction it was ok. In the context of art, it's harmful--it decreases potential for writing well.

It's ok to joke. It's ok to write poems on various different occasion, some of them light. But each time one should do their best or better. There is no excuse. It's ok to post, and then to continue to work on a piece, to get feedback, to post again, etc. But one should never say: I've written it just for ... Anything one writes and posts should be a result of an internal (in your mind), intensive, self-critical feedback loop. Some pieces are short, some long. Some have more weight than some other. But all of them should strive at the highest possible quality.

maybe so, but to reach that kind of intensity about one's writing can take years of writing - getting people writing is the first step towards the goal of writing brilliantly. we're all stepping out there....

 

[Senna Jawa]

getting people writing is the first step towards the goal of writing brilliantly.

It's far from obvious, and I doubt it, since it goes strongly against my observations. Certainly writing sloppily leads to writing poorly forever.

we're all stepping out there....

Wouldn't it be more rational to step in the right direction?

Writing with the utmost discipline and to the best of your ability is way more satisfactory and enjoyable anyway--something that the sloppy, lazy, undisciplined, ambitious in a wrong way writers can't have a clue about.

It's like with the long distance running. One may, without bothering to train, just participate in the road races twice each week, running slowly, but each time winning -) a t-shirt and a banana. Or one may train hard, and give everything they have at each race, every other week.

No analogy is perfect but you get the idea.

 

[twelveoone]

I was not commenting much on the wave after wave of (pseudo-)poetic challenges at Literotica. They give you an adrenaline rush. They give you a pretext for social interactions. ... And they damage your chances for getting better at poetry.

I'd finally want to suggest to go easy on challenges and competitions, to slow down. Challenge yourself, yes, but in a less rigid, less formal way. Let the challenge be more conceptual, let it be about writing a better poem, or acquiring some new skill, new understanding... but without the points, deadlines, rules... Shift the accent and focus toward poetry.

And one more specific point. I am all for all kind of forms in poetry. But they are not an end unto themselves. Their idea was to assist authors in writing good poems. Thus learning superficially one more form, and fulfilling its requirements is but a first step. When repeating just the first step a lot you brainwash yourself. The goal should be the depth and refinement rather than covering a lot of territory.

I just thought I'd ruin your day/night
by saying I fully agree with you
How does that make you feel?
queasy?
BTW what can you tell me about this?
GRASS

 

[Senna Jawa]

Had I known in the past I might have flirted with you more, darn it.

Angeline, are you flirting with me right now? How nice! And it's a great honor for me. You're just a bit late, just a half of a century late. It's still very nice.

 

[twelveoone]

Oh, well, no answer. Must be reading way too much into....

 

[Angeline]

Angeline, are you flirting with me right now? How nice! And it's a great honor for me. You're just a bit late, just a half of a century late. It's still very nice.

Well yeah maybe a little lol. You know I've always been fond of you. It's not just the poetry, it's also that jazz connection.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Well yeah maybe a little lol.

a hollywood tailor
made handsome Tarzan
look good in a suit

me? -- I am uglier than a monkey​

It's nice to be teased anyway . Regards,

 

[EroticOrogeny]

I just thought I'd ruin your day/night
by saying I fully agree with you
How does that make you feel?
queasy?
BTW what can you tell me about this?
GRASS

Long ago I had considered GRASS and had downloaded some tarballs or perhaps RPMs. Had some severe performance issues with raster display.
Ended up with Windows ArcGIS using license from University then.
For general GIS data handling I've found GDAL to be quite useful. Both the command line utilities and the library code for one's own programs.
The FWTools package is ready to run on Linux or Windows, so you don't need to make it. The OpenEV is a quick viz tool but on Linux I've had to make it myself.

 

[twelveoone]

Long ago I had considered GRASS and had downloaded some tarballs or perhaps RPMs. Had some severe performance issues with raster display.
Ended up with Windows ArcGIS using license from University then.
For general GIS data handling I've found GDAL to be quite useful. Both the command line utilities and the library code for one's own programs.
The FWTools package is ready to run on Linux or Windows, so you don't need to make it. The OpenEV is a quick viz tool but on Linux I've had to make it myself.

Grass was in reference to his poem Dimensions. His non response was the answer I needed. And the more I thought about it...I'm the only guy that puts easter eggs in poetry.
Thanks for getting back to me.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

Grass was in reference to his poem Dimensions. His non response was the answer I needed. And the more I thought about it...I'm the only guy that puts easter eggs in poetry.
Thanks for getting back to me.

I was surprised to see a GIS question on a poetry board (although I did bring it up in one of mine). I can see a grass connection in 'dimensions', guess you just threw in random link. Only made tangential easter egg reference in a poem.

 

[vrosej10]

I was not commenting much on the wave after wave of (pseudo-)poetic challenges at Literotica. They give you an adrenaline rush. They give you a pretext for social interactions. ... And they damage your chances for getting better at poetry.

I'd finally want to suggest to go easy on challenges and competitions, to slow down. Challenge yourself, yes, but in a less rigid, less formal way. Let the challenge be more conceptual, let it be about writing a better poem, or acquiring some new skill, new understanding... but without the points, deadlines, rules... Shift the accent and focus toward poetry.

And one more specific point. I am all for all kind of forms in poetry. But they are not an end unto themselves. Their idea was to assist authors in writing good poems. Thus learning superficially one more form, and fulfilling its requirements is but a first step. When repeating just the first step a lot you brainwash yourself. The goal should be the depth and refinement rather than covering a lot of territory.

Now I respect you as a poet. You can write. However, has it occured to you that the dictatorial attitude you are ladling out might actually put people off poetry who might actually have talent but are beginning. You come over as elitist and seems to be that poetry should be reserve only for those who meet your personal standard of rigour and work only in the ways you describe. Yes the exercises here can be frivolous but they do stretch the mental muscles and for some that might be necessary in order to produce decent work. I also agree that some writing here could do to pay more attention to the technical but please try to remember that what you are saying is an opinion not fact (same applies to what I am saying here). You need to leave a space for other people's thought. You might learn something by encountering someone you disagree with. I often disagree with you but I listen to what you are saying and try to take something positive away from it.

 

[twelveoone]

I was surprised to see a GIS question on a poetry board (although I did bring it up in one of mine). I can see a grass connection in 'dimensions', guess you just threw in random link. Only made tangential easter egg reference in a poem.

well since he didn't answer...he's not getting credit
as a matter of course, I probably came up with more than he put in.
I called him out once, he got upset somebody panned his "silver" (what a wonderful pun) people see what they see, I know nobody's ever seen some of the things I put in mine (easter eggs). So i said you put up your, I'll put up mine, The poem was American Vignette #1 which had some very unusual plays on the word "silver". It's in Barking Dogs, which has 5 or 6 other lit writers in it. I don't even have a copy. He declined. It's a good thing, mine was a western. Funny as hell, it had one American(US) in it. Ezra Pound, he was tried as a traitor. Hero was French. I'm not sure anybody got that joke.

 

[Senna Jawa]

the dictatorial attitude you are ladling out.

? - this is Literotica, where everybody can do whatever they please. I am just sharing my opinions with this board.

 

[vrosej10]

? - this is Literotica, where everybody can do whatever they please. I am just sharing my opinions with this board.

Coolio. That was the opinion I was hoping you had. Just testing. I have encountered some my way or the highway types on lit and I would have less respect for you if I thought you thought you were God.

 

[Senna Jawa]

any intricate and true?

one of us might find we excel in one of those specific styles.

Do you know examples of true poems, which are more than playthings, which belong to an intricate form like villanelle? (I know only one villanelle poem as opposed to villanelle fun but unfortunately I am not well read).

 

[butters]

Do you know examples of true poems, which are more than playthings, which belong to an intricate form like villanelle? (I know only one villanelle poem as opposed to villanelle fun but unfortunately I am not well read).

i'm sure there are others here far better placed to answer your question, SJ. had i gone on to uni to study as planned when a teenager, perhaps i could name some off the top of my head. for me, on a personal level, it's what the poem has to say to me, what imagery or emotional content lingers beyond the read, the play of sound - these are the things that matter most to me. having said that, i also appreciate the fact that other poets of a far higher calibre than i say that to master a form (especially an intricate one) can render the form effortless and virtually invisible, as in it becomes secondary (if vital) - like the ballerina spends years building the right sets of muscle and bone density, callouses and grace, but what the audience is looking at are the shapes she throws on the stage and the height of her grand jetés.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Do you know examples of true poems, which are more than playthings, which belong to an intricate form like villanelle? (I know only one villanelle poem as opposed to villanelle fun but unfortunately I am not well read).

Having been labeled as a villanelle slut by the precious Suzy, God rest her soul, I have to say I agree with you. In fact, I pretty much agree with everything you've said in this thread. My villanelles and pseudo-villanelles suck. They are indeed good enough for Lit contests which as you pointed out doesn't mean anything at all.

After taking a break from Literotica largely due to the drama, discontent with the popularity contests, and not feeling challenged to grow, I've looked over some of the poetry that I have written over the last three years. Some of it is just awful. You know the ones... you look at it and think, "omg. I wrote that? It's garbage." BUT there are a few gems that I rescued from my files. And I'm sure you have been there too, when you read something you wrote years ago and think, "omg. I wrote that? I love that." And you know what? A few of the gems were from the contests. Whether you write a poem and enter it into a contest or count it as a contest entry is irrelevant. Writing just for a contest is the real danger. Writing to master the craft of poetry is never a bad thing.

Nice to see you, Senna.