2011 Survivor: Plotting & Planning thread

[CrimsonMaiden]

I finally got the go ahead from the powers that be for the 2011 contest. We are getting going later than usual, so when the rules and registration thread goes up, the rules will still be in pending status until we have a chance to finish the plotting and planning discussion on anything that might be changed.

Okay, so we are in year two of the "no chapters" rule. Do y'all think it does what it was intended to do, or do you think it just makes things worse? Are there any other rules you would like to discuss adjustments to?

 

[SuperHeroRalph]

I like the no chapter rule.

My only suggestion is that I'd like to see the minimum word count increased to 1,500 words. I've seen some writers just throwing together the bare minimum words and writing 1,000 word stories just to score a point.

There's nothing to survive when writing a couple hundred nonsensical stories that have no beginning, no middle, no ending, no plot, and no character development.

Is it any wonder why people here hate the Survivor contest because, especially towards the end, they see their story scrolled off the board for a few dozen Survivor contest stories that are not nearly as good as the story they worked hard to write.

I think by raising the minimum to 1,500 words, we have a better chance to have better quality stories. It's more of a survival contest having longer stories to write. If I had my druthers, to be honest, I'd like to see the minimum story raised to 3,000 words.

Yeah, sure, there are plenty of good stories that are 750-1,200 words, but you run the risk of writers writing a quantity of stories over writing a quality story.

 

[YoursSINSerely]

How about adding a 25 minimum vote on each story? That would keep it in line with the special contests to have them qualify. Just because authors write a story doesn't mean anyone is really reading it. I wouldn't put that minimum on the poems, though. It would also mean more bookkeeping on someone's part.

 

[Boxlicker101]

How about adding a 25 minimum vote on each story? That would keep it in line with the special contests to have them qualify. Just because authors write a story doesn't mean anyone is really reading it. I wouldn't put that minimum on the poems, though. It would also mean more bookkeeping on someone's part.

This would not work. There are some categories that don't get much notice, including all poetry categories, Non-erotic, Humor, Sci-Fi and others. I have had some stories and poems and essays posted for years that haven't received 25 votes yet. Entries that get posted in the last week will often not reach that level by the end of the year, even if they are in more popular categories.

And, you're right abut the increased bookkeeping; it might be too much, considering how many stories and essays are entered during a year.

 

[YoursSINSerely]

This would not work. There are some categories that don't get much notice, including all poetry categories, Non-erotic, Humor, Sci-Fi and others. I have had some stories and poems and essays posted for years that haven't received 25 votes yet. Entries that get posted in the last week will often not reach that level by the end of the year, even if they are in more popular categories.

And, you're right abut the increased bookkeeping; it might be too much, considering how many stories and essays are entered during a year.

How about ten votes? Really, what's the sense of getting credit for a story if noone reads it? I could post the dictionary and get credit for it.

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[Sean Renaud]

I think the chapter rule is silly because it's not particularly well designed. Mostly because nobody seems to have a solid answer for if Rocky is 6 separate stories staring the same charachter in similar situations or if it's one big story. I would say six separate stories but as some of the stories I wrote that got disqualified last year and a fwe other authors clealry that's not the "official" interpretation. But getting around it is simple anyway CHANGE THE NAMES. Technically there is no rule against submiting an exert from a story but even if there was again using my Rocky storie make Rocky 1 about Rocky, 2 is about Sly, 3 is about Mike, 4 is about Jim and then you've just side stepped the rule. Unless the story TRULY can't stand alone.

With a 750 word minimum we aren't really asking much as far as charachter developement or anything so for me the rule is equal parts annoying and unenforceable. Given my choice I'd write twenty stories following Buffy around but since I run the risk of those twenty being decided as chapters rather than stories I'll change her name between each one. Sucks for world building but whatev.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
This would not work. There are some categories that don't get much notice, including all poetry categories, Non-erotic, Humor, Sci-Fi and others. I have had some stories and poems and essays posted for years that haven't received 25 votes yet. Entries that get posted in the last week will often not reach that level by the end of the year, even if they are in more popular categories.

And, you're right abut the increased bookkeeping; it might be too much, considering how many stories and essays are entered during a year.

How about ten votes? Really, what's the sense of getting credit for a story if noone reads it? I could post the dictionary and get credit for it.

Posting the dictionary would be plagiarism, so it wouldn't count as anything.

You can't always fault the author because people don't vote on stories. For instance, I have a story in the Fetish Category that has been posted for over a year and has only six votes. The average score is 4.17, which could mean one "5" and five "4" so the story has not been dissed. Some novel chapters have even fewer votes than that. Not to mention, something posted today might not have time to reach ten votes by Saturday, which is the cutoff date.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Hi, Erin. Nice to see you back again, but I hope you will be using some of the other AV's you used previously.

I think the chapter rule is necessary, mostly because of BFW and what he posted in the 2009 contest. However, I also think it was too broadly enforced.

What Freddie did was to write long, rambling stories and cut them into segments of about 800 words each. These segments were then posted as chapters of stories. In particular, I remember one "story" that consisted of a bunch of gangsters sitting around discussing plans. This went on for thousands of words and maybe a dozen or so chapters, and never really went anywhere. None of the chapters was even close to being a stand alone story, and the whole thing didn't really come to any kind of conclusion. I described it as drivel, and I meant it then and still do.

There was another about a woman who went to AL, and it went on for a long time, but it was at least somewhat erotic, and did come to a conclusion. All the chapters were short and none of them would have made much sense as a standalone story, but it was, at least, a complete story.

I believe the "Rocky" comparison is a good one. I consider the series to be six separate stories about one person, with supporting characters and adversaries, but it probably would have been counted as six chapters here, and not accepted except as a six chapter novel. I think many of us have similar, although not as successful, series in which one or two characters have sexual adventures, with each being a standalone sequel to the previous ones. As far as I can see, these should all be considered separate stories, just as each "Rocky" story should have been, had it been entered here. At the same time, I can see how making hundres of decisions on these stories would be very time-consuming to the monitors.

I see Freddie is also trying to advocate some kind of quality control, and require individual stories to be longer than Literotica's minimum and have plot and character development. Most of my stories are over 3,000 words anyhow, but some items, notably How-to's and Reviews & Essays and Letters & Transcripts are likely to be shorter. A normal story of mine will have no plot to speak of and no conflict and no real character development. It will be about4,000 words graphically describing the sexual fun being had by a person or two or more. I make no apologies for this. People come here to read dirty stories and that's what they usually get when they read mine.

There is one change I would advocate, and that relates to immunities. This year, with the cap levelss, it is necessary to fill the first two levels of two categories for every immunity. I believe this is excessive, and only one entry in either of two different categories should be required. I like the idea of the cap levels, because it emphasizes versatility, which is one of the goals of the contest. In the past, I have seen people pile up sixty or so entries in a single category, and I believe this should continue to be not permitted.

 

[oOScarletWingsOo]

How about ten votes? Really, what's the sense of getting credit for a story if noone reads it? I could post the dictionary and get credit for it.

Maybe you could receive a points bonus if you receive X number of votes. Or instead of points maybe if you receive 25 votes then the story could count as two entries into a category or something like that. That way you are rewarded for writing a story that has been read and voted on...maybe also adding that the average score should be above 3 or something.

 

[Sean Renaud]

It might be interesting to give points for H and E labeled stories. Granted you can occasionally stumble into a hot story but you have to earn a Editors choice. They don't hand those things out for anything shy of you should pull this off the site and get paid for it stories.

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[YoursSINSerely]

I thought someone out there wanted to add a new category. Was it Romance?

 

[Sean Renaud]

I like the idea of bonus points for Editor picks but there is a problem with bonus points for your story's score. It is way too easy to cheat and with sweeps happening randomly how and when your score would count is also an issue.

I would say it would count at the end of the year but I cede that I hadn't thought that part out. To be honestl I'm only SO worried about cheaters cus it seems that most years there is the winner, and then second and third duke it out. I haven't written anything in six months and I suspect I'm still top ten.

I thought someone out there wanted to add a new category. Was it Romance?

Personally I want less categories. I see no purpose for non human for example. We aren't allowed to fuck animals so it's not for animals. Anything else would be sufficiently covered by sci-fi fantasy if it's consensual and by horror if it's not. I would replace Loving Wives with Cuckold or cheating wives because anything about a genuine loving wife and not a cheating whore should go under Romance. I know there are a few others I'd personally get rid of given the choice but still.

Any chance on getting the rule changed on immunities where if hypothetically you fill the first cap of stories but you used an immunity that the first story you do write would be worth 3 points as first story in genre instead of 1 point as a second cap story?

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Just a quick note to say that *any* post not on topic with this thread is gonna be moved. I don't want this thread cluttered with ranting and raving and arguing.

Now, with that being said, let me address what's been said so far:

SHR... BFW (and whoever the heck else you are): As has been said in probably every plotting and planning thread we've had, minimum story word count is set by the administrators of the web site. It will not be something that is up for change unless the site admins change the minimum word count for the entire site. Except for novellas, minimum word count for all stories will always be whatever the minimum word count for the entire site is.

Babs: Requiring a certain number of votes per story is not doable. There is no way for a moderator to check on story votes. We do not have access to those numbers.

Box: I am not sure I understand your suggestion for immunities and cap levels. Can you explain further?

Sean: The chapter rule is probably always going to be contentious to some because the final ruling on those is up to the moderator and of course, it's personal opinion on whether or not the moderator feels a story is too similar to a previous one to be considered stand alone. Reasons that got stories disqualified as chapters included having references to the previous stories, copied paragraphs of text from previous stories, or obvious continuation of a previous story (among some other things but that's what I remember off the top of my head.) Honestly, the rule is a bitch to enforce because you are always going to have someone unhappy and complaining. On the other hand, I really don't want to go back to having someone write a long story and then haphazardly chop it into sections and count it as "chapters" just to get extra points, which is why the rule got put into place to begin with.

As far as your question about a story counting for 3 points if you use an immunity instead of 1... It's your choice whether or not to use an immunity. The consequence of using that immunity is taking the cut in points. If there was no trade off for using an immunity, everyone would use them just to take care of one of the slots in each category without even thinking about writing a story instead.

Scarlett, Sean, et al: This contest is about writing as many stories in as many categories as possible. It isn't about votes or scores. There will not be bonus points given for votes or scores. For one thing, it's not within the scope of this contest. For another, it's way too easy to manipulate scores.

 

[oOScarletWingsOo]

Scarlett, Sean, et al: This contest is about writing as many stories in as many categories as possible. It isn't about votes or scores. There will not be bonus points given for votes or scores. For one thing, it's not within the scope of this contest. For another, it's way too easy to manipulate scores.

I understand the scope of the contest. I was running with the possibility of how something like the voting could work in the spirit of making suggestions for improving or changing the contest. I also understand that not all suggestions will be accepted.

To curb the cheating aspect there could be a "voting panel". The panel could be made up of past Survivor winners and only their votes count. To cut down on their voting responsibilty they could agree to vote on all Survivor stories submitted in a single category. Fine tuning could be worked out from there to address multiple submission from a contestant and deadlines for their votes, tracking etc.

Although I'm not too terribly concerned about the "quality" aspect of the stories that get submitted. I do see how a contestant could just throw something together just to get something churned out and it may not be a decent story. So maybe with the scoring thrown into the mix the contest can evolve into not only seeing how many stories you can write but how many "quality" (describe it however you please) stories you can write.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Just a quick note to say that *any* post not on topic with this thread is gonna be moved. I don't want this thread cluttered with ranting and raving and arguing.

Now, with that being said, let me address what's been said so far:

Box: I am not sure I understand your suggestion for immunities and cap levels. Can you explain further?

Okay, this is what we must do in order to have an immunity count. I copied this from the Rules and Registrations Thread posted early Jan. 2010:

That's why the rules have that little disclaimer at the top that they are still under review... so language can be made clearer and rules can be changed if the majority want something different. It means individual cap levels. As it stands right now, the ratio is two cap levels per immunity. Meaning, you must have filled two categories' level 1 caps to have an immunity be valid. Remember though, you can claim immunities as often as you like. The ratio is only counted at the end of the contest when the scores are tallied.

I take this to mean that, in order to use one immunity in a category such as Illustrated Stories, we need three stories in each of two categories. For instance, to count one immunity in Illustrated Stories, I would need to post, for instance, three Erotic Coupling stories and three Anal stories, a total of six stories. This seems rather excessive. In years previous to 2010, we only needed one story in each of two categories to count an immunity, and I think we should revert to that requirement, especially since immunities do not score any points.

I heartily agree there should be a requirement of some kind, in order to stop people from just scoring immunities. Twelve is the absolute maximum number of immunities that can be used, but that would be an unusually large number to score anyhow. The average should be about seven.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

To curb the cheating aspect there could be a "voting panel". The panel could be made up of past Survivor winners and only their votes count. To cut down on their voting responsibilty they could agree to vote on all Survivor stories submitted in a single category. Fine tuning could be worked out from there to address multiple submission from a contestant and deadlines for their votes, tracking etc.

I'm sorry, Scarlett, but that would require way too much work for it to be put into effect. It's just not feasible.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Okay, this is what we must do in order to have an immunity count. I copied this from the Rules and Registrations Thread posted early Jan. 2010:

That's why the rules have that little disclaimer at the top that they are still under review... so language can be made clearer and rules can be changed if the majority want something different. It means individual cap levels. As it stands right now, the ratio is two cap levels per immunity. Meaning, you must have filled two categories' level 1 caps to have an immunity be valid. Remember though, you can claim immunities as often as you like. The ratio is only counted at the end of the contest when the scores are tallied.

I take this to mean that, in order to use one immunity in a category such as Illustrated Stories, we need three stories in each of two categories. For instance, to count one immunity in Illustrated Stories, I would need to post, for instance, three Erotic Coupling stories and three Anal stories, a total of six stories. This seems rather excessive. In years previous to 2010, we only needed one story in each of two categories to count an immunity, and I think we should revert to that requirement, especially since immunities do not score any points.

I heartily agree there should be a requirement of some kind, in order to stop people from just scoring immunities. Twelve is the absolute maximum number of immunities that can be used, but that would be an unusually large number to score anyhow. The average should be about seven.

So in other words (just so I am clear), you mean you want to change it so that if you have one story in say Anal and one story in Romance, then you can use one immunity? Go back to the 2:1 ratio? For every immunity, you must have two stories (in separate categories)? I don't have a problem with that. What does everyone else think?

The reason it was set the way it was is because you have to write 3 stories to fill that first cap level and one immunity equals a cap level. So, it was to try to keep things even. Fill two cap levels (one in each category) before you can use an immunity that fills a cap level.

 

[Algonquin Twit]

So in other words (just so I am clear), you mean you want to change it so that if you have one story in say Anal and one story in Romance, then you can use one immunity? Go back to the 2:1 ratio? For every immunity, you must have two stories (in separate categories)? I don't have a problem with that. What does everyone else think?

Actually that's the way I thought it was this year. Wow, fortunately it won't affect my position even though I just lost 30 points.

 

[Boxlicker101]

So in other words (just so I am clear), you mean you want to change it so that if you have one story in say Anal and one story in Romance, then you can use one immunity? Go back to the 2:1 ratio? For every immunity, you must have two stories (in separate categories)? I don't have a problem with that. What does everyone else think?

The reason it was set the way it was is because you have to write 3 stories to fill that first cap level and one immunity equals a cap level. So, it was to try to keep things even. Fill two cap levels (one in each category) before you can use an immunity that fills a cap level.

Yes, that's what I meant. Currently, if I have one story or poem in each of ten categories, I receive a five point bonus. That is, I don't need to fill each of ten different caps to get the bonus, and I think using immunities should have the same requirement.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Yes, that's what I meant. Currently, if I have one story or poem in each of ten categories, I receive a five point bonus. That is, I don't need to fill each of ten different caps to get the bonus, and I think using immunities should have the same requirement.

Well, I don't have a problem with it if no one else does, but just remember that it's going to make it a little easier for your competitors to fill up their cap levels more quickly.

 

[YoursSINSerely]

Yes, that's what I meant. Currently, if I have one story or poem in each of ten categories, I receive a five point bonus. That is, I don't need to fill each of ten different caps to get the bonus, and I think using immunities should have the same requirement.

Then, what's the sense of winning an immunity? It's the luck of the draw that you win one of those. You should be able to use it somewhere. Forget the ratio thing.

 

[YoursSINSerely]

Just a quick note to say that *any* post not on topic with this thread is gonna be moved. I don't want this thread cluttered with ranting and raving and arguing.

Now, with that being said, let me address what's been said so far:

SHR... BFW (and whoever the heck else you are): As has been said in probably every plotting and planning thread we've had, minimum story word count is set by the administrators of the web site. It will not be something that is up for change unless the site admins change the minimum word count for the entire site. Except for novellas, minimum word count for all stories will always be whatever the minimum word count for the entire site is.

Babs: Requiring a certain number of votes per story is not doable. There is no way for a moderator to check on story votes. We do not have access to those numbers.

Box: I am not sure I understand your suggestion for immunities and cap levels. Can you explain further?

Sean: The chapter rule is probably always going to be contentious to some because the final ruling on those is up to the moderator and of course, it's personal opinion on whether or not the moderator feels a story is too similar to a previous one to be considered stand alone. Reasons that got stories disqualified as chapters included having references to the previous stories, copied paragraphs of text from previous stories, or obvious continuation of a previous story (among some other things but that's what I remember off the top of my head.) Honestly, the rule is a bitch to enforce because you are always going to have someone unhappy and complaining. On the other hand, I really don't want to go back to having someone write a long story and then haphazardly chop it into sections and count it as "chapters" just to get extra points, which is why the rule got put into place to begin with.

As far as your question about a story counting for 3 points if you use an immunity instead of 1... It's your choice whether or not to use an immunity. The consequence of using that immunity is taking the cut in points. If there was no trade off for using an immunity, everyone would use them just to take care of one of the slots in each category without even thinking about writing a story instead.

Scarlett, Sean, et al: This contest is about writing as many stories in as many categories as possible. It isn't about votes or scores. There will not be bonus points given for votes or scores. For one thing, it's not within the scope of this contest. For another, it's way too easy to manipulate scores.

But the special contests have a minimum vote to qualify. Who keeps track of those? Somebody is doing the doable.

 

[Algonquin Twit]

But the special contests have a minimum vote to qualify. Who keeps track of those? Somebody is doing the doable.

Considering that in the Holiday Contest there was a little more than 110 stories entered and that in this year's Survivor Contest a single contestant had nearly double that. In other years contestants had seven to eight times the number of stories in this year's Holiday Contest keeping track of votes on individual stories is far from doable for the Survivor Contest.

At the end of the contest year, the moderators must check the scorecards, which have gotten incredibly complex compared to several years ago. I think to ask them to track the number of votes (a number that varies throughout the year and could argueably vary from day to day) would be simply too much to ask especially when you consider what the vote count really indicates. What is doable for a relatively small amount of stories is simply not doable when you consider everything else the moderators are burdened with for this contest.

The vote count is not an indicator of the number of reads a story gets, nor is it an indicator of quality. It may be an indicator of individual author popularity or how much an author post to forums, but I think everyone agrees that should not influence a survivor score.

The objective of the survivor contest is clearly stated as: To write as many new and original stories in as many different categories listed on the main story index in the course of the year as possible. The number of votes a story has does nothing to influence, support or have anything to do with the objective of the contest.

The reason there is a minimum vote requirement for the special contests is because the winner is decided by those votes and it should be reasonable to expect that for a story to compete the scoring should be based upon a minimum representative rating for the story. Survivor scoring is not based upon the voting in face the number of votes any entered story gets is completely irrelevant to the contest.

With respect to vote count for stories I think we should leave the rules as they stand.

AT