Christian BDSM

[intothewoods]

I don't think this poster is a straight man, but I don't remember.

Oh, well if not, umm, my bad! I mean, I get that we approximate cocks with all sorts of things, but I think that's about something other than PIV sex being a sort of gold standard. I was just listening to the Sex at Dawn author and he was saying that the noises women make during female orgasms were to attract other men. Because having a bunch of different sperm duking it out inside of you is a good thing.

As a Jew I do appreciate some of the "Leviticus isn't all crazy" meme - but so much of it is that this meme needs to be dealt with. What exactly is going to happen if you mix linen and wool, that kills you? What's this thing with taking off your sandal and spitting in your brother in law's face, specifically, if he refuses to marry you after your husband dies? The only reason I have to go to Harry Halal to eat lamb in yogurt like the rest of the entire region isn't because we had animal rights but because we wanted to *differentiate* ourselves. "No thanks, I don't EAT lamb in yogurt" was our version of being trendoid vegan douchewads of the Holy Land. Or Hashem making us so crazy with all these dirty dishes that we get enlightned and actually go vegetarian, depending who you ask.

Why aren't these fine customs kept alive by Christians, if they're so great?

I am alive because someone spliced mouse proteins onto chemicals and they put it into my vein every 8 weeks, the amount based on my weight.

There's a lot of freaking unnatrual stuff we do. God obviously wants the hemophiliac babies to die too if form has to follow function.

Incidentally, there's plenty of fun in "shallow" sex. Stuffing myself like a porn turkey is not a big part of my orgasms, I know it is for a lot of people but I think we'd procreate either way. If we're the only animals on the planet that have to be persuaded with mutual orgasm to reproduce, then we're the stupidest, not the guys on top. Orgasms pair/bond us long enough to raise these ridiculous slow children of the animal world that we have.

And good Christian folk in a nutshell right there: you're not trying to offend people, but you sure the fuck have to make sure you do. We know why you believe what you believe. It's not that we're going to agree with you with enough education poor heathens, we know the score, we've read the story, we've studied the detail and we're not in agreement, it's not speaking to our insides, our souls or non souls or whatever we do or don't have.

People keep telling me that kosher laws were for health reasons but I also had read somewhere or other that we don't really know the underlying reasons for these laws.

For some reason I am also compelled to state that evidently female humans and bonobos are the two primates who have their vulva in the same place. Which is part of why we do it face to face.

 

[favoritesgoddess]

People keep telling me that kosher laws were for health reasons but I also had read somewhere or other that we don't really know the underlying reasons for these laws.

Actually, they do know why they do what they do. I read a description once that Jewish law is there to set the Jews apart from non-Jews. They did what they did just because no one else around them did it (or didn't do it, as the case may be). They were to be "a people set apart."

As for why Christians don't continue to follow Jewish law, the short answer is that Jesus fulfilled the covenant established between God and the Jewish people. Since Christ IS God, and he himself gave us a new way to worship, the new way trumps the old way. Simply put, it's like how a new contract voids an old one, even though some of what was in the old contract is included in the new one.

 

[Netzach]

Actually, they do know why they do what they do. I read a description once that Jewish law is there to set the Jews apart from non-Jews. They did what they did just because no one else around them did it (or didn't do it, as the case may be). They were to be "a people set apart."

As for why Christians don't continue to follow Jewish law, the short answer is that Jesus fulfilled the covenant established between God and the Jewish people. Since Christ IS God, and he himself gave us a new way to worship, the new way trumps the old way. Simply put, it's like how a new contract voids an old one, even though some of what was in the old contract is included in the new one.

You DO realize that the poster above might be familiar with halachic law? Netzach's assertion meet confirmation in one second.

Again, this isn't a news flash. Where I (and a lot of the rest of the world) beg to differ is that you folks seem to pick and choose what parts of the old contract show up in the sequel based on your OWN likes and dislikes and not anything that the dude you profess to follow actually said or did. So if buttsex worries you, then that's a huge problem because the guy who lost a fist fight to St. Peter said so?

 

[intothewoods]

Actually, they do know why they do what they do. I read a description once that Jewish law is there to set the Jews apart from non-Jews. They did what they did just because no one else around them did it (or didn't do it, as the case may be). They were to be "a people set apart."

Define "know" - lol. The stuff on the link is sort of a summary of what "we" (Jews) tell ourselves but I'm thinking beyond what's found in the text and more what historical sources from the time tell us. Ulterior motives and all that. I think attempting to argue why x should be followed over y is just funny. I pick and choose what's meaningful to me culturally but esssentially it's all goofy Mormon underwear, in my opinion.

As for why Christians don't continue to follow Jewish law, the short answer is that Jesus fulfilled the covenant established between God and the Jewish people. Since Christ IS God, and he himself gave us a new way to worship, the new way trumps the old way. Simply put, it's like how a new contract voids an old one, even though some of what was in the old contract is included in the new one.

That is very handy! Seriously, Jesus took care of all that? And then Christians entered into a new covenant with Jesus?

You DO realize that the poster above might be familiar with halachic law? Netzach's assertion meet confirmation in one second.

Again, this isn't a news flash. Where I (and a lot of the rest of the world) beg to differ is that you folks seem to pick and choose what parts of the old contract show up in the sequel based on your OWN likes and dislikes and not anything that the dude you profess to follow actually said or did. So if buttsex worries you, then that's a huge problem because the guy who lost a fist fight to St. Peter said so?

Well, if Ravenwind is actually a butch lesbian or something then I guess deserved that.

 

[favoritesgoddess]

Righteous indignation breeds shitty theology.

 

[WriterDom]

You know how you can tell that Christians aren't bound by Jewish law? Because all the Baptists and evangelicals would be following it all to the letter instead of stuffing their faces with pork and shrimp. The OT is Harry Potter for Christian kids in Sunday School. And important in the sense that the apostles and Christ referred to it constantly.

Generally a short reading is done from the OT in a service. That's about it unless the preacher is basing his sermon on one of the stories from it.

Now they do believe that every story in the bible is true and that it contains no errors. And that the world is about 6000 years old. That kind of thing. The hardliners. Certainly not all Christians.

 

[Ravenwind]

Your own experience as a straight man. Sexuality is not a choice. And sure, a man can get off inside a woman "with ease" but most can come inside wherethefuckever with relative ease as well. PIV sex doesn't typically get a woman off "with ease" either.

Bisexual woman (I leave for a few months, and I'm forgotten already? I'm a sad panda now Y_Y At least Netzach kind of remembers me...). It would certainly be interesting if I had that experience as a straight man, but it is not so. ...and I wouldn't exactly consider myself butch... tomboy, yes; intentionally vague on the internet, yes; full-on butch, no.

For some, it is a choice; for some, it isn't- I'm not here to accuse one of being "born gay/straight" if they aren't, nor am I here to accuse one of "choosing to be gay/straight" if they have not made such a choice. I know some who were born as what they are, I know some who have made a choices to be what they are, and I knew one who was actually both at once. To speak in absolutes is to show you have full knowledge of something... Even so, I know no one's heart in truth, and I genuinely doubt anyone here does as well.

My point being that "given a choice, would a man prefer something subtly warmer than external body temperature, naturally free of bacteria, and moist; or would they prefer something hot from decomposing matter, naturally full of bacteria, and void of any moisture aside from the decomposing matter?" and "given a choice, would a woman prefer, of equal skill, 2 usable inches from its shallowest to its deepest, or 5 usable inches from its shallowest to its deepest?" Mind you, we're talking ancient tech here- no "internal cleansing devices", KY, or dildos. What do your own natural wants tell you?

@ Netzach- while I appreciate your candor (and for sake of argument, have you ever tried to wash something that was 50/50 of something other than cotton/polyester? It tears apart, or otherwise looks like something out of a Lovecraft novel... in essence, it's absolutely ruined... we discovered that when my Husband washed my favorite faux-fur blanket. It's useless for just about everything other than one of those shoe-cleaning welcome mats now), the reason we Christians don't adhere to the Mosaic Law, is because the Law's purpose was to show us just how futile trying to be perfect, through our own will, is.

Go back to Adam and Eve- they had one Law: "Don't eat the fruit", and they screwed that up. Go to Moses on the mountain- 10 Laws, and the Hebrews screwed that up. Then you got the Mosaic Law, and the Pharisees wound up screwing that up too. Where does the problem lie? In trust. How much were they willing to trust in God? Eve trusted the serpent more than she trusted God, and Adam trusted Eve moreso likewise. The Hebrews, waiting for Moses' return, ceased trusting in the One who led them out of Egypt, and instead, put their trust in the work of their own hands: the golden calf. And the Pharisees trusted in their own selves more than that of God- if it were not so, legalism would not be a problem (that is, focusing on the letter of the law, as opposed to the spirit of the law). If God was assured that Adam and Eve had 100% trust in Him, there would have been no need for the tree. If God was assured the Hebrews wouldn't have strayed, there would have been no need for the Commandments. And if the Pharisees hadn't been more concerned over whether a mat was carried on the Sabbath, as opposed to the welfare of a lame man, then Jesus would have never had to nutshell all 613 Laws and Commandments into just 2.

In the end, if one loves God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and if they love their neighbor as much as they love themselves, then everything else is fulfilled. Love does no harm to one another, love is patient, kind, giving, forgiving, and caring, yet is never selfish or self-serving. Knowing that God is love, if we have that kind of love for one another... if we strive to have the same kind of love for others that God has for us... and we trust in Him, in that what He says is truth... then why worry about the letter of the law, when we fulfill its spirit in our actions?

The Law is a mirror to our souls... it is to show us just how bad-off we are without God. When we realize that even our greatest of deeds is but a filthy rag compared to the least of God's deeds (seriously, how generous is giving a million pieces of green paper (dollars) to a single charity, in comparison to giving 150,000 tons of gold to the whole of mankind? How generous is giving away a million car batteries once a year, in comparison to providing enough energy to last our civilization's needs for 500,000 years, in one second, from the sun?), our attempts to "be good by following the Law" are just as flawed. But, if we realize just how good God is, trust that His goodness will cover and erase our own failures as He has promised and showed in the past, and we *choose* to love our fellowman just as God loves us... there is no need for Law in stone, when the Law within our hearts, the Law of God's Love, guides us. ...Yet, we would never know any of this, without starting at the beginning with the Laws set in stone.

...And for the record, I'm not here to convert anyone. I'm just answering questions anyone asks, and setting the record straight if something is in error. No need to get upset. But the topic *is* Christian BDSM, and I don't know about you, but I would think a Christian who is involved in BDSM would be the first place one would look to for answers about it, would it not?

 

[WriterDom]

99.99999999% of Christians have never been Jewish. Therefore, none of the Jewish laws apply. Unless you are a Jewish Christian. It's been that way from the beginning. I mean fuck, you think it would have spread if you had to be both Jewish and Christian? Holidays alone would be a bitch to keep up with.

 

[Ravenwind]

99.99999999% of Christians have never been Jewish. Therefore, none of the Jewish laws apply. ... Holidays alone would be a bitch to keep up with.

Yeah, I'd say that sums it up pretty well. As for holidays, think about how bad it'd be as both Jewish and Catholic, in America. Might as well take the whole year off of work, with holiday pay.

 

[intothewoods]

Ravenwind - My apologies. I honestly can never remember what gender anyone is unless it's obvious from their name or I've seen their picture. It's because I have AVs off.

The description, to me, sounded like it was from the perspective of the person with a cock. What hole am I putting it into. But it's just a fact that most women don't get off through PIV sex.

I know there are people who say their sexuality is a choice, but I have my doubts. It's true we don't know exactly what causes sexual desires, but it seems a stretch to me that anyone has control over that. I don't know what's in a person's heart, I just tend to look to the science.

 

[WriterDom]

I know there are people who say their sexuality is a choice, but I have my doubts. It's true we don't know exactly what causes sexual desires, but it seems a stretch to me that anyone has control over that. I don't know what's in a person's heart, I just tend to look to the science.

How many people are gay because of abuse? Either sexual or abandonment issues?

 

[intothewoods]

99.99999999% of Christians have never been Jewish. Therefore, none of the Jewish laws apply. Unless you are a Jewish Christian. It's been that way from the beginning. I mean fuck, you think it would have spread if you had to be both Jewish and Christian? Holidays alone would be a bitch to keep up with.

You pick and choose what you like. That's fine, but there's no logic to it.

How many people are gay because of abuse? Either sexual or abandonment issues?

There's just no evidence that homosexuality is caused by abuse or anything other environmental factor. It's not like there's a higher prevalence of homosexuality amongst abused kids.

 

[Stella_Omega]

How many people are gay because of abuse? Either sexual or abandonment issues?

Not nearly as many as you expect.

Straight boys who are abused by women generally grow up to be antagonistic straight men.

Straight women who are abused by men generally grow up to be antagonistic, self-hating, straight women.

If a child is bisexual-- they are a little more lucky, in that they can ignore one of their preferences if it's been beaten out of them.

 

[Netzach]

How many people are gay because of abuse? Either sexual or abandonment issues?

How many people are straight because of abuse or sexual abandonment issues?

 

[Aurantica]

Interesting topic. there has to be a lot of religious people out there with who struggle in the tug-war between faith / doctrine and their own sexuality which they might perceive to be conflicting with their other beliefs.

I know I do

Me too

 

[WriterDom]

You pick and choose what you like. That's fine, but there's no logic to it.



.

Just curious. Would you enter into a conversation or post on a message board about Harry Potter if you never read the books?

 

[rosco rathbone]

99.99999999% of Christians have never been Jewish. Therefore, none of the Jewish laws apply. Unless you are a Jewish Christian. It's been that way from the beginning. I mean fuck, you think it would have spread if you had to be both Jewish and Christian? Holidays alone would be a bitch to keep up with.

I was down at the anti-Ground Zero Mosque protest on 9-11 and watched a sermon & demonstration by an anti-abortion/anti-Muslim Christian group.

At one point, a guy in a Jesus teeshirt put a prayer shawl over his head and blew a blast on a shofar.

I thought it was very odd. Is this a meme?

 

[intothewoods]

Just curious. Would you enter into a conversation or post on a message board about Harry Potter if you never read the books?

#1 - I've read the OT and NT but it's been years since I have. But whatever, I'm not arguing about the texts themselves. I'm not even bashing the approach of picking and choosing. I do the same thing -- pick what traditions and observances are meaningful to me. I just think people should be honest about it. And realize that following one part of the text but not the rest undercuts your reliance on the text as a rulebook.

I was down at the anti-Ground Zero Mosque protest on 9-11 and watched a sermon & demonstration by an anti-abortion/anti-Muslim Christian group.

At one point, a guy in a Jesus teeshirt put a prayer shawl over his head and blew a blast on a shofar.

I thought it was very odd. Is this a meme?

Jews for Jesus or some variant. Blech.

 

[rosco rathbone]

#1 - I've read the OT and NT but it's been years since I have. But whatever, I'm not arguing about the texts themselves. I'm not even bashing the approach of picking and choosing. I do the same thing -- pick what traditions and observances are meaningful to me. I just think people should be honest about it. And realize that following one part of the text but not the rest undercuts your reliance on the text as a rulebook.



Jews for Jesus or some variant. Blech.

No, this was regular evangelicals, not former Jews.

Everybody wants to be the ancient Hebrews.

 

[intothewoods]

No, this was regular evangelicals, not former Jews.

Everybody wants to be the ancient Hebrews.

But Jews for Jesus aren't former Jews. I mean, some of them may be, I guess, but not primarily. Not that I know of anyway. I turned to a channel once, in Canada actually, where it was all the trappings of Judaism but they really looked and sounded like Christian evangelicals. I was so confused for about five minutes until a commercial made it clear the channel was run by JFJ.

 

[WriterDom]

#1 - I've read the OT and NT but it's been years since I have. But whatever, I'm not arguing about the texts themselves. I'm not even bashing the approach of picking and choosing. I do the same thing -- pick what traditions and observances are meaningful to me. I just think people should be honest about it. And realize that following one part of the text but not the rest undercuts your reliance on the text as a rulebook.



.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV44w7BUVEk&feature=related

This guy explains it better than I can. The OT is taking to Jews. When you get into all the weird laws almost every chapter starts with something like "And God told Moses to say to the Israelites, blah blah blah. " Or God said "Tell Aaron this or that.

Not to gentiles. You are trying to make the case that basketball rules should apply to football. Or that Russian civil law applies in American divorce cases.

Now there are 100s of flavors or Christianity and you might find some like the Amish who sorta look and dress and maybe act like Orthodox Jews. But 99% of Christians aren't taught any Jewish law or holidays for that matter.

Yes, it is used by bigots for gay bashing. But when Billy Graham saved 2.5 million souls he probably didn't even open the OT. He didn't have to.

 

[intothewoods]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV44w7BUVEk&feature=related

This guy explains it better than I can. The OT is taking to Jews. When you get into all the weird laws almost every chapter starts with something like "And God told Moses to say to the Israelites, blah blah blah. " Or God said "Tell Aaron this or that.

Not to gentiles. You are trying to make the case that basketball rules should apply to football. Or that Russian civil law applies in American divorce cases.
Now there are 100s of flavors or Christianity and you might find some like the Amish who sorta look and dress and maybe act like Orthodox Jews. But 99% of Christians aren't taught any Jewish law or holidays for that matter.

Yes, it is used by bigots for gay bashing. But when Billy Graham saved 2.5 million souls he probably didn't even open the OT. He didn't have to.

No, I'm not but I don't feel like explaining it again.

Muslims also have incorporated the OT and NT and they obviously have their own set of rules and traditions, btw.

 

[JMohegan]

...And for the record, I'm not here to convert anyone. I'm just answering questions anyone asks, and setting the record straight if something is in error. No need to get upset. But the topic *is* Christian BDSM, and I don't know about you, but I would think a Christian who is involved in BDSM would be the first place one would look to for answers about it, would it not?

There is no record to keep straight. There is only an ancient text, wielded by millions of individuals, each of whom spins it in a different way.

Your spin is markedly different than the spin presented in the site linked earlier on this thread. You say most christians just don't "get it", and that you're one of the few who really does. No doubt the authors of that site feel exactly the same way.

You have the right to spin your imaginings in whatever way suits your fancy, of course. But that's all it is. The spin that suits your fancy.

 

[WriterDom]

Muslims also have incorporated the OT and NT .

The cast is similar but the stories are very different.

 

[Ravenwind]

There is no record to keep straight. There is only an ancient text, wielded by millions of individuals, each of whom spins it in a different way.

Your spin is markedly different than the spin presented in the site linked earlier on this thread. You say most christians just don't "get it", and that you're one of the few who really does. No doubt the authors of that site feel exactly the same way.

You have the right to spin your imaginings in whatever way suits your fancy, of course. But that's all it is. The spin that suits your fancy.

Even so, I don't get it all- after almost 20 years of study, there are a few things that still make me scratch my head in confusion, but time, experience, and a few pointers from God will cure that. But, you ask "everyday average Christian guy" about whether they're a good person in the eyes of God, and you get "sure, I try to be", then ask what the purpose of the Law was, and then get the reply of "Jesus said the law is done for". Yet, actually looking in the Bible, you see that nobody is good, and the Law was there to point this fact out. OT, NT, doesn't matter, we all still suck- doesn't matter if you're straight, gay, rich, poor, devout, or indifferent... in the eyes of God, we all are pretty dang messed up. Even Mother Theresa was no better than your common everyday average thief, and a gay person is no worse than your local charity worker.

...yet, you have supposed "Christians" bashing gays, yet none bash the gang members in the streets or thieves who pirate music, nor do they bash one another for their own hatred of gays. ...Would you say, according to the Bible, they are correct in their bashing of one group of people, as opposed to all? Knowing that, "There are none who are good; no, not one". Would you say, then, that a "Christian" is correct when they believe that after they give their life to Jesus, they can continue doing things God calls evil, knowing that, "Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."

Spin is merely a lack of knowledge. The more knowledge one accepts as fact and as truth within their lives, the less spin can exist. Let's put it this way: The Pharisees spun the Law like mad: they knew the laws, but did not accept their existence as fact within their lives (if it were not so, they would never have put blame on Jesus for healing the sick, nor would they be more concerned over tithes and power over the well-being of the populace); Jesus, however, knew the Law 100%, but understood *why* it was put into place- to make life easier for mankind, so that we would know "this is how one can love their brother like themselves, and this is not".

Knowledge and idiocy can spread like wildfire amongst a group (have you ever played the child's game "Telephone"- the whisper said to the first child is never the same thing that the last person declares), yet because of the lack of literacy amongst ancient populaces, and lack of dedication amongst modern populaces, those in power have screwed over millions of people, as they put their own spin on the "little whisper" first told to them. Yet, if someone goes back to the source, and with the intent to avoid cherry-picking, seeks out the whole truth, you minimize the amount of spin possible- there is nothing left to get *but* truth.

Simply put, "my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge... The more priests there were, the more they sinned against me; they exchanged their glorious God for something disgraceful" and "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true". ...One can tell how much of a Christian one is by how much dust is on their Bible (or, when the "last visited/used" date is for their digital one). What good is it to hear, and not understand? What good is it to hear half of the story, and not the whole story? And once again, what good is it to hear a lie, and believe it to be truth? ...in the end, whose words are more valuable to listen to: the man who wants to sell you a book, or the man who died to save your soul?

A Christian, not just in name only but one who is Christian because they genuinely believe and trust in God, simply cannot afford to cherry-pick- especially when the fact that God will essentially bitch-slap us upside the head and metaphorically ask "What were you thinking?" if we do, and that is one bitch-slap I know I don't want. ...As I've said before, sometimes, "disappointment" is far worse than any crop or whip (or, in this case, hellfire).

Edit:

Muslims also have incorporated the OT and NT and they obviously have their own set of rules and traditions, btw.

They also incorporated some Deuterocanon and Gnostic stories- that is, they also added the stories both Jews and Christians (respectively) recognized as being false, such as the reason for Satan's fall (jealousy, as opposed to arrogance), an alternate Adam and Eve story (IIRC, can't remember offhand), and Jesus' early life (which is portrayed as a 180-degree-turn in morality from His adult life).