Obama seeks to curb ruling on gays in military

[Wolfman1982]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68M5X220100924

By Dan Levine

SAN FRANCISCO | Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:05pm EDT

(Reuters) - Weeks after a federal judge struck down a U.S. military rule that bans openly gay men and women from the armed forces, the Obama administration sought on Thursday to keep the policy mostly intact while Congress debates the issue.

The administration's stance, urging more time to gauge the impact of ending the ban and calling for a political solution rather than one imposed by the courts, also came two days after the U.S. Senate blocked legislation that would have repealed the policy known as "don't ask, don't tell."

President Barack Obama campaigned in 2008 on a promise of a full repeal, and that vow has emerged as a big political issue for the gay and lesbian community before congressional elections on November 2.

Many Republicans fiercely oppose altering the 17-year-old policy, which continued the long-time ban on homosexual acts in the military but allowed gay men and lesbians to serve in the armed forces so long as they keep their sexual orientation private. Otherwise, they are to be expelled.

The executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, Kate Kendall, called the U.S. Justice Department's court position a betrayal.

"It is offensive and contrary to the spirit of Obama's promise to end ('don't ask, don't tell')," Kendell said in a statement.

Clarke Cooper, executive director of the Log Cabin Republicans, a gay rights group that challenged "don't ask, don't tell" in court, added, "We are extremely disappointed."

However, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs insisted that the government's filing "in no way diminishes the president's firm commitment to achieve a legislative repeal ... indeed, it clearly shows why Congress must act to end this misguided policy."

"Don't ask, don't tell" was introduced in 1993 by President Bill Clinton and enacted into law, overturning a previous policy of excluding gay men and women altogether based on a premise that homosexuality was incompatible with the military.

But U.S. District Judge Virginia Phillips declared the law to be unconstitutional, ruling in an 86-page opinion on September 9 that it violates the First and Fifth amendments.

Phillips said then that she intended to issue an injunction restricting the government from enforcing the policy.

But Obama's lawyers asked in Thursday's motion that Phillips refrain from applying her ruling nationally, or to the military overseas. Instead, the Department of Justice argued that the immediate effect of her decision should be to prohibit the military from expelling openly gay service members who belong to the Log Cabin Republicans.

Regardless of how broadly or narrowly Phillips ultimately applies her ruling, the administration asked for more time to assess the consequences of her decision.

"A court should not compel ... an immediate cessation of the 17-year-old policy without regard for any effect such an abrupt change might have on the military's operations," the department wrote, "particularly at a time when the military is engaged in combat operations and other demanding military activities around the globe."

In March 2010, Defense Secretary Robert Gates imposed tougher rules of evidence and generally made it more difficult to discharge openly gay military personnel. Meanwhile, the Pentagon has surveyed service members on the issue.

The case in U.S. District Court, Central District of California, is Log Cabin Republicans v. United States of America, 04-08425.




I am really pissed off over Obama, and strangely enough I am tempted to burst out the most vile and racist slurs about the man. But then I know my black and white friends will go "WTF man !?". But seriously Obama is behaving like a fucking numbskull, who is even worse than Bush(crazy I know). So to all who is reading this, no I am not a racist, but I am a democrat (in American sense) (a social democrat in European sense) who is thinking at the moment about Obama this part "What the fuck man !?!?!".

 

[Etoile]

I am really pissed off over Obama, and strangely enough I am tempted to burst out the most vile and racist slurs about the man. But then I know my black and white friends will go "WTF man !?". But seriously Obama is behaving like a fucking numbskull, who is even worse than Bush(crazy I know). So to all who is reading this, no I am not a racist, but I am a democrat (in American sense) (a social democrat in European sense) who is thinking at the moment about Obama this part "What the fuck man !?!?!".

Why get so upset? How does what Obama does affect you in any way? If you were in Iraq or Afghanistan, his decisions might affect you, but you're not...so why let it trouble you so much?

I voted for Obama in 2008, and I'll vote for him again in 2012.

 

[Wolfman1982]

Why get so upset? How does what Obama does affect you in any way? If you were in Iraq or Afghanistan, his decisions might affect you, but you're not...so why let it trouble you so much?

I voted for Obama in 2008, and I'll vote for him again in 2012.

If I was an American, I would vote for him too. Because the opposite candidate is probably a lot worse. But anyway here comes my opinion about it all, which I probably have mention a lot of times, anyway I like Obama. But how do I say it in the most clear way ?

if you are gay or bi or what ever, and stupid enough to go to war or become a soldier (I am an anti war person) then go right ahead and become a soldier no matter what sexuality you are, cause I am not stopping you. But the whole DADT rule is a fucking joke, and pisses me off, cause as the judge said, it is unconstitutional (the DADT) but Obama wants to curb it ?

Wtf , is my response to that, or have I made a big misunderstanding on the article which I some times do because of my eyesight goes funky ? or am I wrong with my assumption ?

 

[klippert]

Law suit issue

What I see happening, is the destruction of the only tax payer funded entity that works. Ya ya,the military has it's issue as well, BUT DAMN IT, When it's left to do it's job (killing the enemy and blowing thing up, then rebuilding them) and NOT hindered by it's masters..... Theirs no fucking machine in the world that works as well.

When you join the military your a recruit. Basic training, you learn right away, your neither a skin color, a race, or for that matter a Sexual Preference. Your not even worthy enough to be in the United States Military, until you've graduated from Basic Training. The military is concerned about cohesiveness. Units, working together to complete the mission. there not worried about who's sucking dick and banging man pussy.

This issue should NOT be left up to unaccountable politicians or some man in a black robe... We know that our votes don't count (prop8 ring a bell). This should be deiced by the men and women in uniform. Let them vote on the issue. They have more right than you and I. If this is forced upon them by an un-elected judge with an ideological axe to grind or Congress (that bunch of fuck ups) passing some feel good law. It will cause a serious rift among the rank and file.

Not because of some openly gay guy is serving in the military. The Grunt or Leather Neck doesn't need a Rainbow manual to read. There under enough stress already. The DOD has already cautioning against some political stunt by this congress and Da Why Howz.

These United States military is not some University social experimental playground or some place to elevate one race, color, creed or sexual preference. I would bet with in a year of over ruling don't ask don't tell we see one law suit after another, the ACLU well be lining up.... harassment, not enough Gay Drill Sargent, Lt, Cpt., Majors, Generals Why no Lesbian Chief Joint and on and on. The anti-American military dream cum true.

For those that hate the military, this will be heaven.... the men and women in the field having to worry weather or not they have enough Gay soldiers or marines for there petrol..... nightmare. I wonder whom will teach the sensitivity class....

Ones lifestyle is no concern to me until their choice in life affects me and my family. We shouldn't have to ask what ones sexual preference is. Just the same, we don't need a parade celebrating when a gay man joins the services. You server your nation out of choice (even necessity), not for your lifestyle choice or to make a political statement. This world that we live in, it doesn't afford us the time for social experiments.

As for Obama. When the Military brass is laughing at you, and calling you names during daily briefs or assessments .... and not afraid to tell some dumb fuck from Rolling Stone, knowing full well he's going to get a dressing down by a little man (a Napoleon). Some Harvard pee-on. Then you know even the lowest man in the ranks.... Has no respect for Obama.

By the way:
"I'm anti-war".....That's so fucking stupid...... I'm anti-war too, I'm just pro liberty.... and freedom....and you don't have one with out victory, Military victory. At times that mean committing your military to combat....WAR. Oh by the way I'm anti-cancer as well, do you think their's people, that are pro-cancer!!!

This isn't about correcting a wrong. It's about social change... forcing conformity. Hitler and Stalin forced conformity.... How'd that turn out, and those two fuckers had zero tolerances for Homo'sessuals.

Peace......... through superior firepower!!!!

 

[Netzach]

What I see happening, is the destruction of the only tax payer funded entity that works. Ya ya,the military has it's issue as well, BUT DAMN IT, When it's left to do it's job (killing the enemy and blowing thing up, then rebuilding them) and NOT hindered by it's masters..... Theirs no fucking machine in the world that works as well.

When you join the military your a recruit. Basic training, you learn right away, your neither a skin color, a race, or for that matter a Sexual Preference. Your not even worthy enough to be in the United States Military, until you've graduated from Basic Training. The military is concerned about cohesiveness. Units, working together to complete the mission. there not worried about who's sucking dick and banging man pussy.

This issue should NOT be left up to unaccountable politicians or some man in a black robe... We know that our votes don't count (prop8 ring a bell). This should be deiced by the men and women in uniform. Let them vote on the issue. They have more right than you and I. If this is forced upon them by an un-elected judge with an ideological axe to grind or Congress (that bunch of fuck ups) passing some feel good law. It will cause a serious rift among the rank and file.

Not because of some openly gay guy is serving in the military. The Grunt or Leather Neck doesn't need a Rainbow manual to read. There under enough stress already. The DOD has already cautioning against some political stunt by this congress and Da Why Howz.

These United States military is not some University social experimental playground or some place to elevate one race, color, creed or sexual preference. I would bet with in a year of over ruling don't ask don't tell we see one law suit after another, the ACLU well be lining up.... harassment, not enough Gay Drill Sargent, Lt, Cpt., Majors, Generals Why no Lesbian Chief Joint and on and on. The anti-American military dream cum true.

For those that hate the military, this will be heaven.... the men and women in the field having to worry weather or not they have enough Gay soldiers or marines for there petrol..... nightmare. I wonder whom will teach the sensitivity class....

Ones lifestyle is no concern to me until their choice in life affects me and my family. We shouldn't have to ask what ones sexual preference is. Just the same, we don't need a parade celebrating when a gay man joins the services. You server your nation out of choice (even necessity), not for your lifestyle choice or to make a political statement. This world that we live in, it doesn't afford us the time for social experiments.

As for Obama. When the Military brass is laughing at you, and calling you names during daily briefs or assessments .... and not afraid to tell some dumb fuck from Rolling Stone, knowing full well he's going to get a dressing down by a little man (a Napoleon). Some Harvard pee-on. Then you know even the lowest man in the ranks.... Has no respect for Obama.

By the way:
"I'm anti-war".....That's so fucking stupid...... I'm anti-war too, I'm just pro liberty.... and freedom....and you don't have one with out victory, Military victory. At times that mean committing your military to combat....WAR. Oh by the way I'm anti-cancer as well, do you think their's people, that are pro-cancer!!!

This isn't about correcting a wrong. It's about social change... forcing conformity. Hitler and Stalin forced conformity.... How'd that turn out, and those two fuckers had zero tolerances for Homo'sessuals.

Peace......... through superior firepower!!!!

So I take it that Canada and Britain are completely unacceptable as allies, because they've managed to do this thing without apparently falling apart at the seams? This idea that integration is unacceptably disruptive simply doesn't hold water. English troops have managed to permit gay men and women without disintegrating into a rainbow colored hump fest, so the excuse that somehow no one can tolerate it is just something people will have to get the fuck over.

Gay men and lesbians have participated in every military victory in this country. They've been thanked by purges and dishonorable discharges and still have done everything that straight people did with accolades and glory.

"No, sorry, Bob, you can't clear this minefield for me, you're a fag" - if it's not important, it's not fucking important, is it?

There are other western postindustrial countries who have managed this one, I'm sure the best fighting force in the world can figure it out.

Also in multiple polls, the "rank and file" increasingly express the opinion that they do not give a rat's ass about the sexual orientation of the men and women they are in with, to the point where they think DADT is fucking dumb.

The only thing being forced is for people to be able to serve without having to take pains to hide the fundamental truth of who they are. Why don't people have to hide their religion, it's also very disruptive to have religious beliefs that might conflict with other troops?

And no, the civil rights of others are not a majority wins proposition, or a popularity contest, sorry to inform. If you like that model of governance, I suggest Rwanda.

 

[Etoile]

In addition to the fact that most people in the military don't care about gays fighting alongside them...they also don't GET to care. Asking them what they want is irrelevant. When they signed up, they agreed to be TOLD what they want. I don't give a rat's ass if it fucks up morale (which, as Netzach points out, it doesn't), it's THE RIGHT THING TO DO to allow gays to serve openly. And if some jarhead doesn't like it, he can quit. Because that's the only way he gets to have something he likes or doesn't like - by leaving the military.

 

[coastal-boy]

The Justice Dept has to represent the country in ANY action brought against them (the country). The Judge ruled it was illegal (step one). Therefore, it goes to the Appeal Court (step two) and the Justice Dept must represent the country in the upcoming case. It really is that simple. If it doesn't go to trial...the only other way it will be overturned is through Congress. What is the likelihood of that given the probablilty Republicans will soon be in control again? It must go through the appeal process to make it valid.

 

[Etoile]

Oh, and it's ridiculous that everybody is blaming Obama for DADT. Hello? It was signed by CLINTON.

The reason I am not angry about his statements is because I am realistic. He has also said he is against gay marriage, but supports civil unions. He has to say things to appeal to everybody. That's politics in the United States.

I also don't expect him to change everything in a short period of time. It's like the ads showing on TV for the MD gubernatorial race. It's incumbent governor (O'Malley) vs the guy he defeated last election (Erlich). Erlich has been saying "look how O'Malley has ruined Maryland! He ran it into the ground!" Um, excuse me, but O'Malley could only work with what Erlich left for him, AND some stuff is decided at a federal level anyway. O'Malley cannot single-handedly solve the economy for the state of MD any more than Obama can for the whole country.

We should be voting based on ideology and goals, not anger and what's happening NOW.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Oh, and it's ridiculous that everybody is blaming Obama for DADT. Hello? It was signed by CLINTON.

I'm not blaming him FOR DADT, I'm blaming him for:

* Not getting rid of it Congressionally when he HAD a Super Majority.

* For not getting rid of it by Executive Order AFTER he lost a Congressional Super Majority.

* For allowing HIS DOJ to defend something that he "says" he believes is unconstitutional.

The reason I am not angry about his statements is because I am realistic. He has also said he is against gay marriage, but supports civil unions. He has to say things to appeal to everybody. That's politics in the United States.

I AM angry at him for saying things that "appeal" to everyone because they never CAN! I want, and thought I voted for, a President who would stand up for what is right REGARDLESS of what the polls say.

I also don't expect him to change everything in a short period of time. It's like the ads showing on TV for the MD gubernatorial race. It's incumbent governor (O'Malley) vs the guy he defeated last election (Erlich). Erlich has been saying "look how O'Malley has ruined Maryland! He ran it into the ground!" Um, excuse me, but O'Malley could only work with what Erlich left for him, AND some stuff is decided at a federal level anyway. O'Malley cannot single-handedly solve the economy for the state of MD any more than Obama can for the whole country.

We should be voting based on ideology and goals, not anger and what's happening NOW.

Dr. King answered this one better me -

A right delayed is a right denied.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

(and yes he could and should have stopped the delay)

 

[operaBaritone]

Respect the troops enough to know that they can deal with "the gay"

Barry Goldwater put this best IMO

"You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight."

And to the guy who said "your votes don't count"

you know when else they "didn't count"?

Brown v Board of Education

Defend the other side if you want, but if put up to a vote, parts of the south would have NEVER accepted this at the time.

The military is not sacrosanct, they don't get to do whatever they want. Last I checked, the President is the Commander in Chief, he is the civilian power over the military, and it should be respected that the head of the armed forces is a civilian, the military doesn't get a bubble.

I deeply respect many of the men and women in the armed forces, I respect them enough to think they're better than those who say "openly gay soldiers would degrade unit cohesion". Do we respect our troops (US perspective here) enough to say that they could not care less the sexual orientation of their fellow combatants, because they have REAL work to do, HARD work to do, and if they made it in dammit they're soldiers.

 

[Wolfman1982]

Etoile: personally I am NOT blaming Obama for DADT. And I hope you understand, why I got angry/mad.

 

[bhurry]

Barry Goldwater put this best IMO

"You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight."

And to the guy who said "your votes don't count"

you know when else they "didn't count"?

Brown v Board of Education

Defend the other side if you want, but if put up to a vote, parts of the south would have NEVER accepted this at the time.

The military is not sacrosanct, they don't get to do whatever they want. Last I checked, the President is the Commander in Chief, he is the civilian power over the military, and it should be respected that the head of the armed forces is a civilian, the military doesn't get a bubble.

I deeply respect many of the men and women in the armed forces, I respect them enough to think they're better than those who say "openly gay soldiers would degrade unit cohesion". Do we respect our troops (US perspective here) enough to say that they could not care less the sexual orientation of their fellow combatants, because they have REAL work to do, HARD work to do, and if they made it in dammit they're soldiers.

What branch of service were you in?

 

[Safe_Bet]

What branch of service were you in?

First of all it shouldn't made any difference if he was in the service or not. I'm assuming you can recognize a bird without being able to fly, right?

Secondly, I heard pretty much the same thing from a straight friend of mine who served 30 years in the U.S. Marine Corps = "Our motto says "The few, the proud, the Marines. It doesn't say straight any place in there. If a man or woman bears the title Marine, they are my brother or sister and I'll kick the ass of anybody who thinks less of them because of their orientation". That might not be the exact quote but it's damn close.

 

[cheesehead2]

First of all it shouldn't made any difference if he was in the service or not. I'm assuming you can recognize a bird without being able to fly, right?

Secondly, I heard the pretty much the same thing from a straight friend of mine who served 30 years in the U.S. Marine Corps = "Our motto says "The few, the proud, the Marines. It doesn't say straight any place in there. If a man or woman bears the title Marine, they are my brother or sister and I'll kick the ass of anybody who thinks less of them because of their orientation". That might not be the exact quote but it's damn close.

Sure, can you fly? Like I said have been there? I have USMC. Brother/sister not partner

 

[Safe_Bet]

Sure, can you fly? Like I said have been there? I have USMC. Brother/sister not partner

WTF??? That makes absolutely no sense, dude.

 

[Vixandra]

I was in the Air Force for 4 years. I honestly didn't/don't care who my fellow soldiers/airmen/marines/seamen are having sex with as long as it is done off duty.

The military has actually been the first group of people to start a lot of changes. Some of the first "mixed color" teams were in the military. When you're being shot at, the race, religion, orientation of your team mates doesn't matter anymore. Keeping everyone alive on your side and making the other idiots die for their country is the goal.

 

[TearsoftheWorld]

When thinking / discussing about current issues, I often find myself going back and watching episodes from the serial drama, The West Wing. Yes it's a fictional television show, but a lot of the principles and issues talked about have real life implications and resonate with an even wider audience, including myself.

In the first season there's an episode where some of the Presidents staff are have a meeting with stringent politicians and uniformed officers over gays serving in the military.

While they're debating, a black Admiral in the U.S. Navy and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff walks in and gives his opinion on the issue.

"Cause they [Gays] pose a threat to unit discipline and cohesion? I think so too. I also think the military wasn't designed to be an instrument of social change. But the problem with that is that's what they were saying about me [blacks] fifty years ago. Blacks shouldn't serve with whites. It would disrupt the unit. You know what? It did disrupt the unit. The unit got over it. The unit changed. I'm an Admiral in the United States Navy and Chairman of the Joint Chief's of Staff. Beat that with a stick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XbPGsLSw1k

 

[cheesehead2]

WTF??? That makes absolutely no sense, dude.

Well maybe I see your bird shit. By the way are you DUDE or DUDESS

 

[Etoile]

Well maybe I see your bird shit. By the way are you DUDE or DUDESS

3rd grade much...

 

[cheesehead2]

3rd grade much...

Gosh, I found a classmate.

 

[Etoile]

Gosh, I found a classmate.

zing!

 

[Safe_Bet]

Well maybe I see your bird shit. By the way are you DUDE or DUDESS

Gosh, I found a classmate.

So what's next dude? You gonna stick your thumbs in your ears, wiggle your fingers, stick out your tongue and make an oogie face at me?

BTW, your comment nor your response made any sense. I have NO idea what your point was or if you even had one. If you'd like to restate it so that I can actually understand your point I'll be glad to respond.

Till then, **sticks out tongue** Pfffffft!

 

[bhurry]

So what's next dude? You gonna stick your thumbs in your ears, wiggle your fingers, stick out your tongue and make an oogie face at me?

BTW, your comment nor your response made any sense. I have NO idea what your point was or if you even had one. If you'd like to restate it so that I can actually understand your point I'll be glad to respond.

Till then, **sticks out tongue** Pfffffft!

Maybe you two should have a nice meal together. Sure you would enjoy each other.

 

[Hengeist]

To LGBTs who want to serve their country in the Armed Forces.

You have to understand, the following. You will be serving with a wide assortment of individuals from this Republic. Mostly they will be on the right end of the political spectrum. You will be serving with men and women from Alabama, California, New York, Texas, Montana and everywhere in between. Kids from the street and kids from the sticks. Kids from ardent religious backgrounds, atheists and all sorts of backgrounds. Some of them may have been sexually assaulted in the past, some of them have phobias.

The Individual comes dead last when it comes to the Military, they take care of you yes, they will do their all to make sure you come home dead or alive. But your individuality, matters exactly jack. The Mission, the Unit, that is all the military cares about. That is all it should care about. It is not a popularity contest. It is exporting death and destruction, the application of force to achieve goals. Your orientation does not matter. Do not expect the military or your brothers and sisters in uniform to validate your orientation, that is not why they swore an oath and where the uniform.

You have to compromise. It is not like working in an office. Example, at the United States Military Academy West Point where both men and women attend, dating fellow cadets is frowned upon, Public Displays of Affection are punished and having sex and engaging in sodomy means expulsion, even if it isn't with a fellow cadet. West Point is among the top institutions of higher learning in the World, it is an honor to go there. But your worth as an commissioned officer is more important than your individuality.

You cannot be as open with who you are in the Military as you can in the public sector. It may be disruptive. In certain circumstances it may lead to the breakdown of discipline and good order which can get a lot of good people dead very quickly. If a homosexual who is open about it is the commanding officer of a combat unit such as Infantry, he must walk an extremely fine line. He cannot grow attached to the men under his command, as it may lead to favoritism and casts doubt upon his qualifications and eventually a loss of confidence in said officer by the men under his command which leads to death of good men in combat.

DADT ain't perfect, but if it goes, what ever happens next must be done very very carefully.

 

[Etoile]

To LGBTs who want to serve their country in the Armed Forces.

You have to understand, the following. You will be serving with a wide assortment of individuals from this Republic. Mostly they will be on the right end of the political spectrum. You will be serving with men and women from Alabama, California, New York, Texas, Montana and everywhere in between. Kids from the street and kids from the sticks. Kids from ardent religious backgrounds, atheists and all sorts of backgrounds. Some of them may have been sexually assaulted in the past, some of them have phobias.

The Individual comes dead last when it comes to the Military, they take care of you yes, they will do their all to make sure you come home dead or alive. But your individuality, matters exactly jack. The Mission, the Unit, that is all the military cares about. That is all it should care about. It is not a popularity contest. It is exporting death and destruction, the application of force to achieve goals. Your orientation does not matter. Do not expect the military or your brothers and sisters in uniform to validate your orientation, that is not why they swore an oath and where the uniform.

You have to compromise. It is not like working in an office. Example, at the United States Military Academy West Point where both men and women attend, dating fellow cadets is frowned upon, Public Displays of Affection are punished and having sex and engaging in sodomy means expulsion, even if it isn't with a fellow cadet. West Point is among the top institutions of higher learning in the World, it is an honor to go there. But your worth as an commissioned officer is more important than your individuality.

You cannot be as open with who you are in the Military as you can in the public sector. It may be disruptive. In certain circumstances it may lead to the breakdown of discipline and good order which can get a lot of good people dead very quickly. If a homosexual who is open about it is the commanding officer of a combat unit such as Infantry, he must walk an extremely fine line. He cannot grow attached to the men under his command, as it may lead to favoritism and casts doubt upon his qualifications and eventually a loss of confidence in said officer by the men under his command which leads to death of good men in combat.

DADT ain't perfect, but if it goes, what ever happens next must be done very very carefully.

This is so ignorant and homophobic I don't even know where to start. Somebody else will probably come along and voice my sentiments pretty well soon enough.