Relationships ruined by "lifestylers"?

[KoPilot]

Aka "Re: Nosy PYL Thread".

Ownedsubgal and Stella brought up a few interesting side comments about PYLs forcibly isolating their pyls and cutting off all their previous contacts, for better or for worse.

And I was just wondering... have any of you actually been shut out by someone you care about because their PYL (or abusive vanilla partner) told them that they couldn't talk to you anymore? How did you feel about it? Or if you haven't, how do you think you would respond? Do you think this jives/doesn't jive with the whole SSC thing and involving others in your affairs, or does that only count for play?

Just curious~

 

[CutieMouse]

Several years ago I was in a complicated long distance thing with someone who sold himself as highly experienced/educated/blahblahblah re:BDSM. And I was silly, inexperienced, and gullible enough to ignore the things that didn't feel right, because he said he knew more, knew better, XYZ wasn't how it used to be done, etc.

He applied isolationist pressure. Over time, and I did end up more reclusive for a while. In fact, if you look through my old posting history, you will see signs of his influence - at one point he didn't approve of my presence at Lit, there was a HUGE argument, and he said I had a choice. Delete every post I'd ever made/leave Lit, or he'd never speak to me again (along with a fee other things). You would think a smart, educated, mostly together woman wouldn't cave to that sort of pressure, but I did.

I obviously got over that bit of toxic insanity.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Back in the 80's, my sister started pulling away from me, not returning calls, not accepting invites. it turned out to be the boyfriend she was living with, who was very subtly abusive. Eventually his abuse became not so subtle and there was one frenetic afternoon when our parents, myself, my husband and two friends, descended on their apartment and moved her out while he stood by.

About four years ago she told me some details. If I ever see that man face-to-face, watch a baseball bat materialise in my hands, watch his head disappear over the horizon!

 

[ultramarineblue]

Several years ago I was in a complicated long distance thing with someone who sold himself as highly experienced/educated/blahblahblah re:BDSM. And I was silly, inexperienced, and gullible enough to ignore the things that didn't feel right, because he said he knew more, knew better, XYZ wasn't how it used to be done, etc.

He applied isolationist pressure. Over time, and I did end up more reclusive for a while. In fact, if you look through my old posting history, you will see signs of his influence - at one point he didn't approve of my presence at Lit, there was a HUGE argument, and he said I had a choice. Delete every post I'd ever made/leave Lit, or he'd never speak to me again (along with a fee other things). You would think a smart, educated, mostly together woman wouldn't cave to that sort of pressure, but I did.

I obviously got over that bit of toxic insanity.

I had wondered why some of your posts were deleted when I would look through some of the threads in the library.

 

[Keroin]

My ex hubby liked to employ the "Us vs Them" argument whenever someone commented to me on a behaviour of his they disapproved of - usually his treatment of me. He very subtly, yet effectively, turned me against everyone I loved. He was smart like fox. I was naive. By the time I left him, my usually large circle of friends was...gone.

That isolation, for a gregarious, outgoing person such as myself, was devastating.

Never. Again.

 

[sb2009]

My ex hubby liked to employ the "Us vs Them" argument whenever someone commented to me on a behaviour of his they disapproved of - usually his treatment of me. He very subtly, yet effectively, turned me against everyone I loved. He was smart like fox. I was naive. By the time I left him, my usually large circle of friends was...gone.

That isolation, for a gregarious, outgoing person such as myself, was devastating.

Never. Again.

This. As well, I acted so oddly, so flaky, so paraoid, that I drove eveyrone away as well. Which only proved his "you are so crazy no one will ever love you like I do" story.

 

[KoPilot]

Wow, these replies are making me sadder than I thought they would... -regrets making thread-

And Stella, your situation actually reminded me that something like that happened when I was very young... about 8, I think. It was my mother's second marriage to a loser/abuser/drug-user, and he attempted to cut my mom and I off from the rest of our family. I heard a story about a time when my grandmother drove up to visit, and my step-dad stepped out into the driveway to tell her to fuck off, and she just said 'fuck you' instead and walked right past him. I'm very glad she did!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Once again, I find it disturbing to be discussing abusive vanilla relationships and the practices within a D/s relationship in the same thread as if they were the same thing. DV is not the same as consensual D/s and cannot be discussed as if it is. There is abuse in both vanilla and D/s relationships, but often in terms of D/s abuse, it is more about one person in the relationship not making sure they knew what they were getting into first and then screaming abuse when it didn't meet their expectations. By all means abuse should be discussed, but I feel more comfortable when the lines are not blurred to incude consensual D/s practices alongside abuse as if they are one in the same.

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

Once again, I find it disturbing to be discussing abusive vanilla relationships and the practices within a D/s relationship in the same thread as if they were the same thing. DV is not the same as consensual D/s and cannot be discussed as if it is. There is abuse in both vanilla and D/s relationships, but often in terms of D/s abuse, it is more about one person in the relationship not making sure they knew what they were getting into first and then screaming abuse when it didn't meet their expectations. By all means abuse should be discussed, but I feel more comfortable when the lines are not blurred to incude consensual D/s practices alongside abuse as if they are one in the same.

Catalina

Technically the situation I mentioned was D/s. I believe you, RJ, AA, Homburg, a lot of others on the forum, as well as friends in real life all told me he was being a controlling asshat [not a dominant], but it took me a while to believe anyone.

My gut knew better - I remember conversations in which I'd say I wanted to go to a munch or a lecture, and he'd say I couldn't trust those people like I could trust him. Anyone who attended a munch was obviously just interested in casual sex... if I went, I shouldn't drink or eat anything - just in case someone tried to drug me, or to avoid STD exposure (WTF?). People at Lit couldn't possibly know as much as he did - he was personal friends with XYZ highly respected BDSM authors/helped found this and that organization in the '70s, blahblahblah. Sometimes I'd point out how segregated and isolated I felt - like I was getting a very narrow point of view, and things were sort of feeling like all the warning signs one reads about in BDSM literature... and he'd get offended/throw a tantrum/rant about how no one else understood me the way he did, or loved me the way he did, then do a dramatic "Fine, I'll just never speak to you again" thing.

The sad thing is that the parts of him I liked were a lot of why I put up with the stuff I didn't. And every time I tried to pull away, he'd throw D/s in my face. It was not healthy. At all. Ever. But even up to the day I finally said "No more contact. Period." he was proclaiming his deep abiding love for me. The last thing I ever heard from him was that no man would ever love me as much as he did.

 

[KoPilot]

Once again, I find it disturbing to be discussing abusive vanilla relationships and the practices within a D/s relationship in the same thread as if they were the same thing. DV is not the same as consensual D/s and cannot be discussed as if it is. There is abuse in both vanilla and D/s relationships, but often in terms of D/s abuse, it is more about one person in the relationship not making sure they knew what they were getting into first and then screaming abuse when it didn't meet their expectations. By all means abuse should be discussed, but I feel more comfortable when the lines are not blurred to incude consensual D/s practices alongside abuse as if they are one in the same.

Catalina

Technically, I was just trying to step into the shoes of someone who had been cut off from someone else due to the controlling partner in their relationship, really regardless of the reasons. I am not equating the behavior with abuse, nor am I even trying to give it a negative spin, although as I imagine the people who have been in those shoes have been negatively impacted by it.

It happens to people who want it, and it happens to people who don't want it. I guess I'm just trying to be all-inclusive.

 

[intothewoods]

Once again, I find it disturbing to be discussing abusive vanilla relationships and the practices within a D/s relationship in the same thread as if they were the same thing. DV is not the same as consensual D/s and cannot be discussed as if it is. There is abuse in both vanilla and D/s relationships, but often in terms of D/s abuse, it is more about one person in the relationship not making sure they knew what they were getting into first and then screaming abuse when it didn't meet their expectations. By all means abuse should be discussed, but I feel more comfortable when the lines are not blurred to incude consensual D/s practices alongside abuse as if they are one in the same.

Catalina

That's how I feel when consensual slavery and non-consensual slavery are discussed in the same breath.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This conversation began because someone was saying that they had suspicions regarding a BDSM relationship. She thinks it might be an abusive man calling himself a Dom. In which case, abuse is abuse. That there is a difference is taken as read-- and some of the comments have been about how it can be difficult to tell the difference.

And we are talking about the warning signs by which someone might recognize that a sub isn't going into submission in full knowledge and consensuality.

The last thing I ever heard from him was that no man would ever love me as much as he did.

Did he call you Beloved?

 

[ownedsubgal]

And we are talking about the warning signs by which someone might recognize that a sub isn't going into submission in full knowledge and consensuality.
Did he call you Beloved?

but that's just it...what exactly are these "warning signs?" what characteristics, actions, etc. are unique to only non-consensual and abusive relationships?

 

[Stella_Omega]

but that's just it...what exactly are these "warning signs?" what characteristics, actions, etc. are unique to only non-consensual and abusive relationships?

The victim not knowing what's going on, maybe?

You knew what was happening, right? Even when you didn't like the particulars. You would have been able to state that this was an agreed-upon part of your relationship.

 

[ownedsubgal]

The victim not knowing what's going on, maybe?

You knew what was happening, right? Even when you didn't like the particulars. You would have been able to state that this was an agreed-upon part of your relationship.

even that often gets fuzzy. the woman in Seela's story at the very least knows she's in and has agreed to an authority-based relationship. i knew that i was a slave. did i really know anything more specific, more tangible than that?...such as, everything which could possibly be a part of slavery? nope, not by a long shot.

 

[Stella_Omega]

even that often gets fuzzy. the woman in Seela's story at the very least knows she's in and has agreed to an authority-based relationship. i knew that i was a slave. did i really know anything more specific, more tangible than that?...such as, everything which could possibly be a part of slavery? nope, not by a long shot.

I have a feeling then, it might only be seen by the outcome-- here YOU are, happy enough, while some other woman might be dying by inches.

 

[sb2009]

granted, I am by no means an expert on authority based or D/s or BDSM relationships. But I honestly, not trying to be snarky or a bitch, wonder why there seems to be the idea that there is not really abuse in those relationships, but it's just a poor match up?

People are people, they do the same sorts of things as they always have. I have seen this put forward a lot more agressively on Fetlife than on there, even to the point that there is no such thing as an abusive relationship, even in the vanilla world..it's just that the pyl didn't choose the PYL carefully enough.

I am well aware that the "typical" red flags that therapists, domestic violence advocates, etc use may not work as well in a BDSM relationship (I find it thrilling and a sign he cares when he pinches me when I'm acting all cunty - my co workers would freak the fuck out, etc etc) but there still are cases where a person is being damaged and I don't think it does anyone any good by saying "hey, you signed up for it, you gotta just suck it up."

And like Stella said, the outcome is a big tell. If someone is *in general* happy to be where they are - then it's great. But if they are not happy and thriving and are questioning things that are part of thier dynamic (for example - no contact with thier family) and it's not been addresssed by thier PYL...why can't it be ok to say "man, that's fucked up....you don't really have to put up with that, you know."

 

[ecstaticsub]

granted, I am by no means an expert on authority based or D/s or BDSM relationships. But I honestly, not trying to be snarky or a bitch, wonder why there seems to be the idea that there is not really abuse in those relationships, but it's just a poor match up?

Exactly. There are abusive vanilla relationships and abusive power exchange relationships. Just because a submissive/slave agrees to be there does not automatically mean it is not abusive.

People are people, they do the same sorts of things as they always have. I have seen this put forward a lot more agressively on Fetlife than on there, even to the point that there is no such thing as an abusive relationship, even in the vanilla world..it's just that the pyl didn't choose the PYL carefully enough.

I am well aware that the "typical" red flags that therapists, domestic violence advocates, etc use may not work as well in a BDSM relationship (I find it thrilling and a sign he cares when he pinches me when I'm acting all cunty - my co workers would freak the fuck out, etc etc) but there still are cases where a person is being damaged and I don't think it does anyone any good by saying "hey, you signed up for it, you gotta just suck it up."

And like Stella said, the outcome is a big tell. If someone is *in general* happy to be where they are - then it's great. But if they are not happy and thriving and are questioning things that are part of thier dynamic (for example - no contact with thier family) and it's not been addresssed by thier PYL...why can't it be ok to say "man, that's fucked up....you don't really have to put up with that, you know."

I have friended pyls who later on I have questioned (to myself) whether they are in a abusive relationship. I have found the best thing to do is simply to be available if they need to talk. Sometimes they will ask "Am I crazy?, does this sound ok?" I give her my opinion but I do it with kindness. Since I am sure their PYL is reading their emails I try to be supportive. It is a frustrating position to be in.

If a husband in a vanilla marriage beats his wife to the point of breaking her arm that is assault, but if they are in a M/s relationship then it is ok?? How is law enforcement or a health care professional to know the difference?


When Daddy and I first started I had a very good friend who did not understand my decision to submit at all. He told me my marriage would come to an end, my children would be taken away from me..etc etc. I of course told Daddy about the conversations. Daddy allowed me to continue to be friends with him for a while and then decided to order me to end the friendship. It was very difficult for me to do but I agreed that it was for the best.

 

[JMohegan]

Aka "Re: Nosy PYL Thread".

Ownedsubgal and Stella brought up a few interesting side comments about PYLs forcibly isolating their pyls and cutting off all their previous contacts, for better or for worse.

And I was just wondering... have any of you actually been shut out by someone you care about because their PYL (or abusive vanilla partner) told them that they couldn't talk to you anymore? How did you feel about it? Or if you haven't, how do you think you would respond? Do you think this jives/doesn't jive with the whole SSC thing and involving others in your affairs, or does that only count for play?

Just curious~

Not 'forcibly' in the literal physical sense, no. Otherwise, yes.

A close friend of mine, 'V,' got involved with a very controlling woman, who convinced V that isolation from his pre-existing close relationships was necessary in order to strengthen the relationship between the two of them in their "new life together." We objected, tried reason, tried compromise, failed on all counts.

It sucked, and it hurt like hell. V was part of a small group of friends whom I had cherished, in a band of brothers type of way, for more than a decade.

At first, we thought it was just us he was rejecting. Years later, after a chance encounter with his sister, we learned V had cut off all contact with his family as well. At that point, we (friends and family) tried again to establish and maintain contact - failing again on all counts.

V was with that woman for 12 miserable years before he finally realized that he was, as Stella aptly puts it, "dying by inches." Then he found the strength, and left.

We never saw V as a victim. Sure, we thought of his partner as a total bitch. But we also assumed that V was capable of making his own adult decisions, and therefore at least 50% responsible for cutting us off. It may not have been his idea, but he did go along with it.

Which, of course, is why it hurt like hell. He made that choice.

 

[NomadLady]

Not 'forcibly' in the literal physical sense, no. Otherwise, yes.

A close friend of mine, 'V,' got involved with a very controlling woman, who convinced V that isolation from his pre-existing close relationships was necessary in order to strengthen the relationship between the two of them in their "new life together." We objected, tried reason, tried compromise, failed on all counts.

It sucked, and it hurt like hell. V was part of a small group of friends whom I had cherished, in a band of brothers type of way, for more than a decade.

At first, we thought it was just us he was rejecting. Years later, after a chance encounter with his sister, we learned V had cut off all contact with his family as well. At that point, we (friends and family) tried again to establish and maintain contact - failing again on all counts.

V was with that woman for 12 miserable years before he finally realized that he was, as Stella aptly puts it, "dying by inches." Then he found the strength, and left.

We never saw V as a victim. Sure, we thought of his partner as a total bitch. But we also assumed that V was capable of making his own adult decisions, and therefore at least 50% responsible for cutting us off. It may not have been his idea, but he did go along with it.

Which, of course, is why it hurt like hell. He made that choice.

I had a very similar thing happen with a family member. His wife did the same thing. It lasted 18 years, they are divorced now but things will just never be the same....he is no longer the brother that I grew up with....

 

[Stella_Omega]

If a husband in a vanilla marriage beats his wife to the point of breaking her arm that is assault, but if they are in a M/s relationship then it is ok?? How is law enforcement or a health care professional to know the difference?

They can't force an adult to press charges, a fact which has many a social worker tearing out their own hair.

We never saw V as a victim. Sure, we thought of his partner as a total bitch. But we also assumed that V was capable of making his own adult decisions, and therefore at least 50% responsible for cutting us off. It may not have been his idea, but he did go along with it.

Which, of course, is why it hurt like hell. He made that choice.

Yep. To me, it seems like an incredible selfishness.

 

[ownedsubgal]

And like Stella said, the outcome is a big tell. If someone is *in general* happy to be where they are - then it's great. But if they are not happy and thriving and are questioning things that are part of thier dynamic (for example - no contact with thier family) and it's not been addresssed by thier PYL...why can't it be ok to say "man, that's fucked up....you don't really have to put up with that, you know."

but how can someone on the outside actually read those signs? especially someone with zero relationship to the submissive, like a doctor, cop, therapist, etc.? what happens most often is that people jump to conclusions based on their own personal experience/frame of reference. so if for instance their only frame of reference for a man giving a woman a black eye is domestic abuse, then that is how they will automatically interpret the situation, no matter what the submissive says. if their only frame of reference for someone being isolated from friends and family is nonconsensual abuse, then that is what they will assume to be the case. and the really frightening thing is here in the US medical and legal authorities not only can press charges against someone they suspect to be an abuser, even without the so-called "victim's" support, in many states they are legally obligated to press those charges. and then you have happy and healthy relationships broken up, lives destroyed.

 

[Stella_Omega]

osg, your lifestyle mimics the kind of behavior that KILLS its victims, which is why all those sanctions are in place. And in fact, since the sanctions became more strongly placed, domestic violence deaths have dropped.

I think you are acting like a spoiled brat, frankly. You want to compare your plight to GLBT? Fine, learn to live in the closet. In most part of the country two men cannot touch hands in public without risking their reputations, careers, lives. Not so long ago, they could have been thrown in jail, and youngsters still get committed to mental hospitals at their parent's discretion-- those very same parents who, as often as not, indulge in domestic abuse.

Maybe daddy can learn to not give you black eyes which can be seen at the grocery store.

And it would behoove you and your daddy to avoid beating you till you need a hospital visit.

 

[VelvetSin]

but how can someone on the outside actually read those signs? especially someone with zero relationship to the submissive, like a doctor, cop, therapist, etc.? what happens most often is that people jump to conclusions based on their own personal experience/frame of reference. so if for instance their only frame of reference for a man giving a woman a black eye is domestic abuse, then that is how they will automatically interpret the situation, no matter what the submissive says. if their only frame of reference for someone being isolated from friends and family is nonconsensual abuse, then that is what they will assume to be the case. and the really frightening thing is here in the US medical and legal authorities not only can press charges against someone they suspect to be an abuser, even without the so-called "victim's" support, in many states they are legally obligated to press those charges. and then you have happy and healthy relationships broken up, lives destroyed.

Isn't it better to err on the side of caution, no matter the circumstances? In an abusive relationship, once the couple is apart, the abuse victim will realize what was really happening and support prosecution of the abuser once outside of the abuser's control and given access to supportive resources. In a non-abusive, consensual relationship, the not-a-victim will continue to crave his/her partner and continue to deny any abuse occurred, substantiating the accused abuser's claims that it was a consensual arrangement. Eventually, it will be easy to tell the difference. Though the accused abuser and would-be victim may be apart for a time and there may be unwelcome involvement by those outside of the relationship for a time, I would think it's better to inconvenience a few couples that happen to choose a dynamic that mimics countless REAL cases of abuse, than leave a real victim in a dangerous and potentially life-threatening situation just to avoid inconveniencing someone's kink.

Even in states where the Prosecutor presses charges without a victim's consent, the Defense having the would-be victim on the stand supporting the accused's claims goes a very long way to putting an end to a falsely-assumed case of abuse. In a real case of abuse though, the victim is given the help s/he needs and the abuser is punished appropriately.

Maybe I'm looking at it through rose-colored or overly-PC glasses, but I think if the assumed victim continues to back up the claims of the accused, a court would throw the case out rather than waste time and resources on people's chosen dynamic. Or, move to the Deep South. The average marriage there is D/s without the label.

ETA: Just like choosing to speed when the speed limit is clearly posted, drinking underage when the legal drinking age is known to be 21, doing illegal drugs when it's known to be illegal, choosing a dynamic that is technically prosecutable is a *choice.* Someone that speeds risks a speeding ticket and while it's annoying, getting pulled over is an inconvenient consequence of that choice. If caught drinking underage or doing illegal drugs, getting tossed in a court-appointed rehab and doing time in prison is a consequence of that choice. If you and your Master have chosen that dynamic knowing there are risks involved, you've chosen to take that risk and can't really blame the court system that's been put in place to protect the truly innocent if caught in the red tape of that decision.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The BDSM community is a product of the same society as vanilla people come from. We are very aware of the mores and standards of the general society, and very anxious to remove ourselves from the spectre of domestic abuse, and couples like ownedsubgal and her daddy are probably too much like for comfort.

There are very good reasons why we talk about rope bondage, cellpopping, floggers, ritualised humiliation-- and avoid black eyes, belittling our spouses, and broken arms.