Another reason why BDSM will never gain acceptance in the US

[graceanne]

I know some women like that, too. I know men who use feminism (hatred of) as an excuse to act badly, too. It's funny how these things work out.

wait-- are you saying that you are some form of feminist, if only the particular label of "feminism" wasn't so tainted with bad manners?

I don't consider myself a feminist, but there are people who do. That said, I'm bored with this conversation. I most likely won't be returning to it. I've said my bit, and won't be nitpicked over it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't consider myself a feminist, but there are people who do. That said, I'm bored with this conversation. I most likely won't be returning to it. I've said my bit, and won't be nitpicked over it.

That's probably what I should have said to you in my first response, huh?

Noted.

 

[graceanne]

That's probably what I should have said to you in my first response, huh?

Noted.

 

[FungiUg]

Look I don't think being "chronically angry" is good for the health either. But the alternative is apathy

Not sure I agree. Looks over in the direction of Ghandi. Although this may be true for you personally, I don't know. If so... that's a bit sad.

I would rather be considered unmannerly than be dead.

Fair comment. On the other hand, I have yet to find you unmannerly. *shrug*

[...] the benefits of the battles that feminism has won [...] where fifty years ago you would have had zero choice based on your sex.

I don't bash feminism (as a movement) for that very reason. It did what was necessary to make a very necessary social change. But then, I do live in the country that was first to give women the vote, so I may be a leeetle bit biased.

That individuality was achieved, for your benefit, at the cost of good manners.

Now that I don't believe. Perhaps in the process of seeking social change, manners can be discarded. But in day to day life?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not sure I agree. Looks over in the direction of Ghandi. Although this may be true for you personally, I don't know. If so... that's a bit sad.

You're looking at Ghandi's public persona, you know. From what I understand he was a bit of an asshole in his private life. And sure it's sad. If you want me to not be sad, lemme see you shoulder a little bit of the burden, don't waste your pity on me. Otherwise, your judgment isn't particularly useful to me, yanno what I'm saying?

Fair comment. On the other hand, I have yet to find you unmannerly. *shrug*

*is absurdly pleased to hear that*

I don't bash feminism (as a movement) for that very reason. It does what is necessary to maintain a very necessary social course. But then, I do live in the country that was first to give women the vote, so I may be a leeetle bit biased.

I fixed that for you

Your country aside, we are still in the midst of the two steps forward one step back battle over here-- and in most areas of the globe, not to mention the really bad places.

Now that I don't believe. Perhaps in the process of seeking social change, manners can be discarded. But in day to day life?

Well, that would depend on whose life it is.

And just as you conflated Ghandi's public image with his private one, you are now conflating political action with private discourse. That's 1) not fair, 2) not workable, 3) makes you easy to ignore if you do it often enough, just saying.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe it's the Judeo bias in my values, but I absolutely think that millenia of institutional bad behavior done TO you excuses bad manners - manners? FFS. I'm really sorry if my rage over institutionalized sexism, nonconsensual reproductive surgeries, psychiatric abuses over a century, double standards, and do we have all day - makes men I respect otherwise uncomfortable.

Or maybe they just need to get over themselves and put it in perspective. A forced sterilization might throw it into perspective or an involuntary commitment.

 

[ImOnIt]

Maybe it's the Judeo bias in my values, but I absolutely think that millenia of institutional bad behavior done TO you excuses bad manners - manners? FFS.

I said already that someone mentioned bad behaviour, which was quoted as bad manners. Right, manners aren't an issue. It's not justifiable to think that bad behaviour right now is ok because my ancestors were killed by vikings. If I start asking for reparations/get angry with the descendants of ancient celtic warriors, I'm not entitled to anything.

I don't get to kill ostrogoths because they did it to my ancestors.

I have centuries of acting badly to enjoy before I catch up with men.

Explain your view here, would you Stella. In what way do you want to act badly? How will centuries of bad acting make things right?

 

[Netzach]

I said already that someone mentioned bad behaviour, which was quoted as bad manners. Right, manners aren't an issue. It's not justifiable to think that bad behaviour right now is ok because my ancestors were killed by vikings. If I start asking for reparations/get angry with the descendants of ancient celtic warriors, I'm not entitled to anything.

I don't get to kill ostrogoths because they did it to my ancestors.

I'm talking about behavior from fifty years ago. Thirty. Yesterday.

I don't have to give every man the benefit of the doubt for calling me "sweetie" or some well-meaning head up the ass pejorative because it's somehow passe to have a problem with it.

If you want to relegate sexism to the same class as the fall of Rome you are being disingenuous. Or dumb.

 

[ImOnIt]

I'm talking about behavior from fifty years ago. Thirty. Yesterday.

I don't have to give every man the benefit of the doubt for calling me "sweetie" or some well-meaning head up the ass pejorative because it's somehow passe to have a problem with it.

If you want to relegate sexism to the same class as the fall of Rome you are being disingenuous. Or dumb.

Women with their heads up their own asses also call men 'sweetie'. What's a guy to do about that?

 

[FungiUg]

You're looking at Ghandi's public persona, you know. From what I understand he was a bit of an asshole in his private life.

Could well be true. He did, however, illustrate that it was possible to create social change without it being a movement of anger. Determination, yes. Actually, maybe that's not true... maybe there was some anger there (let's assume Ghandi and followers were human), but it wasn't expressed through violence. So okay, you win that one.

And sure it's sad. If you want me to not be sad, lemme see you shoulder a little bit of the burden, don't waste your pity on me.

Heh, I'm too apathetic to pity you. I guess what I was reaching for is that it's possible to be determined as a motivator without being constantly angry.

I fixed that for you

I take the point: it's ongoing, not something that has been and done. Positive action, equal opportunities, etc. On the other hand, you were the won who said "the benefits of the battle that feminism has won" which is, I believe, past tense.

I work in a country and industry where it doesn't matter what gender or ethnicity or religion you are, if you can communicate and get the job done that's what we care about. I guess it's astonishing how much I have grown to take that attitude for granted.

And just as you conflated Ghandi's public image with his private one, you are now conflating political action with private discourse. That's 1) not fair, 2) not workable, 3) makes you easy to ignore if you do it often enough, just saying.

I'm not sure I know how to conflate. No, I was commenting on what you were saying as being motivated from anger, and was thinking Ghandi showed a lot of determination in affecting a social change. But the truth is, he was almost certainly pretty damned angry at times too. Sorry, my bad here... what was actually going on was me equating anger with violence, and they are certainly not the same thing. So I apologise for that. *smacks hand in a non-violent manner*

I don't think I'm mixing private vs public... I think the two are often inter-related. I think a lot of political action grows out of private discourse. Cause and effect kinda stuff.

 

[teknight]

Yes, I'm Romanian

Some earlier post...Actually I chat with him most days as well-- funny nice guy but a bit of a drama queen (Yeah tek I know what you're gonna say) Why what?

Yes, I'm a drama queen.
I am Romanian, but I've been in the States for the past 7 years. However, (and you can feel free to check my 700 some odd posts (and some are really odd)), I do not need help with English*, nor am I on here to "improve" it.



*thanks for the offer, JM. I'll ask if I need it.

 

[teknight]

Oh. I totally missed that. lol

That's because I've found that saying that I'm Romanian turns me into something less than human, an odd kind of curio. In RL I could be having the most engaging conversation, but, the second I mention I'm Romanian, that ends, as my conversation partner grows this pained expression resulting from trying to figure out where Romania is on a map. This has happened on more than one occasion.

You can see JM's comment too- it illustrates the point I just made.

 

[teknight]

On Gandhi:

Not sure I agree. Looks over in the direction of Ghandi. Although this may be true for you personally, I don't know. If so... that's a bit sad.

You're looking at Ghandi's public persona, you know. From what I understand he was a bit of an asshole in his private life. And sure it's sad. If you want me to not be sad, lemme see you shoulder a little bit of the burden, don't waste your pity on me. Otherwise, your judgment isn't particularly useful to me, yanno what I'm saying? *is absurdly pleased to hear that* I fixed that for you

And just as you conflated Ghandi's public image with his private one, you are now conflating political action with private discourse. That's 1) not fair, 2) not workable, 3) makes you easy to ignore if you do it often enough, just saying.

I've never really bought Gandhi's story: his pacifism was fantastic PR, but he was "hitting" the British Empire at a time when it was down (did the Brit. Emp. deserve to be hit? Yes. Were they stupidly oppressing India? Yes). However, his pacifism broke down when India broke down- his message no longer carried weight when the people inhabiting the Indian subcontinent decided they could no longer live next to each other. The period of time when Pakistan broke off from India was very bloody- and still affects relations between the two states to this day. Maybe it's unfair of me to pin this on Gandhi, but I still see it as a blemish on his satyagraha.

And he grew up and started practicing law in South Africa. I've heard it said that he despised the blacks there (the kaffirs as he might have put it).

ETA:

Could well be true. He did, however, illustrate that it was possible to create social change without it being a movement of anger. Determination, yes. Actually, maybe that's not true... maybe there was some anger there (let's assume Ghandi and followers were human), but it wasn't expressed through violence. So okay, you win that one.

I still don't think he was that effective. The Brit. Emp. was not in a good position to keep oppressing the Indians after WW2 (they were basically broke), and. let's face it, their track record on keeping colonies...is kinda shoddy.

On feminism:
Maybe part of why Feminism has splintered is because it's confounded between political goals and relationship interactions. The two don't seem to overlap that well...or maybe people haven't found the optimal mix of the two?

 

[satindesire]

Let's just put my opinion this way:

I don't care whose ancestors did what to whose ancestors, NOTHING excuses bad behavior towards ANYONE unless THAT PERSON did something bad to YOU.

I'm Native American. Do I treat all white people like they owe me something for murdering some of my family members that I've never even MET a hundred years before I was born?! Fuck no, because that's ludicrous, and not even close to rational thinking.

If anyone thinks that they'll get a pass on bad behavior because they're part of a group that is oppressed now or anywhere down the timeline, that's ridiculous. There's not enough white guilt in the world to excuse bad people for acting like assholes and finding any excuse they can for it.

 

[Warranted]

This comes as no shock at all. There's a heavy online market segment of "high school bratdomme" stuff, so that the FemDom ultimate appears to be Lolita in men's imaginations more and more. You see women turning 30 and being consigned to the MILF bin, both in sites and in commercial dungeons. It's pretty fucked, if you ask me, so the idea that parents might get in on the cash grab in this fucked up a fashion is no news.

While this may be true, I think there is an equal or higher amount of middle aged guys like myself. Guys like us understand that while 20 year old girls might be nice to look at, they kind of ruin it by acting like 20 year olds. Nothing against them, they are SUPPOSED to be 20 at that age

To me, and millions of other guys, a 30ish year old woman has tons to offer. Beauty, experience, self assuredness, usually more financially stable, understands her mind and body better, and the list goes on.

I'd take a sexy 30 something lady who knows what she wants (whether that means being a sub or whatever) any day.

Just my 2 cents.

-Warranted

 

[Stella_Omega]

Explain your view here, would you Stella. In what way do you want to act badly? How will centuries of bad acting make things right?

You've ansered your own question;

Women with their heads up their own asses also call men 'sweetie'. What's a guy to do about that?

I call men "sweetie." That's me being badly behaved.

Pisses them the fuck off!

That's because I've found that saying that I'm Romanian turns me into something less than human, an odd kind of curio. In RL I could be having the most engaging conversation, but, the second I mention I'm Romanian, that ends, as my conversation partner grows this pained expression resulting from trying to figure out where Romania is on a map. This has happened on more than one occasion.

You can see JM's comment too- it illustrates the point I just made.

Doesn't that just SUCK?

It's how I have felt many times in my life, being female bodied. And I don't even have to say anything, people just know.

I'm reminded of one of my all-time favorite jobs-- working in a machine shop. I did some office stuff, but ran a lot of machining operations in the back rooms, did drop offs and pickups, swept the floors, changed lightbulbs, packed the dumpsters, walked the dog...

The owner, my boss, assured me in the very beginning that he would never ask me to make coffee.

AND-- at the end of the day, after a day of grimy, oily satisfying production, someone would usually ask me if I need any help carrying anything to my car.

 

[FungiUg]

I call men "sweetie." That's me being badly behaved.

O... M.... G.... !!!

 

[Stella_Omega]

O... M.... G.... !!!

yeah I'm an animal!

So just watch it.

 

[FungiUg]

yeah I'm an animal!

So just watch it.

Could be worse. You could be calling we men "sweetie darling". Of course, you'd need a fag and a bottle of bollie to pull that one off.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Could be worse. You could be calling we men "sweetie darling". Of course, you'd need a fag and a bottle of bollie to pull that one off.

I am a fag...

I dunno what a bottle of bollie is though!

 

[graceanne]

That's because I've found that saying that I'm Romanian turns me into something less than human, an odd kind of curio. In RL I could be having the most engaging conversation, but, the second I mention I'm Romanian, that ends, as my conversation partner grows this pained expression resulting from trying to figure out where Romania is on a map. This has happened on more than one occasion.

You can see JM's comment too- it illustrates the point I just made.

I don't care. I was just surprised cause normally I can tell when English is someone's second language, and I can't tell with you. *shrugs*

I call men "sweetie." That's me being badly behaved.

I call everyone sweetie, hon, and if I really want to annoy them 'schnookie winkums' and 'twinkle toes'.

 

[satindesire]

I call everyone sweetie, hon,

me, too. And like you, I actually mean it!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I call everyone sweetie, hon, and if I really want to annoy them 'schnookie winkums' and 'twinkle toes'.

OUCHIES!

 

[graceanne]

me, too. And like you, I actually mean it!

In truth I've never had someone take offense to it, maybe cause I don't mean it offensively. I only call people I know and love (and who love me) things like schnookie winkums cause then they flip me off and I laugh my ass off.

But all my sibs (5 of them on last count) and cousins (over 30 of them) and nieces and nephews (15) and day care kids are called sweetie and hon and the littler ones are called mamas/auntie little cuddle bug and baby and luv. I have to admit, sometimes it's cause I can't recall that particular childs name at that particular moment and if I go through every name of every child I've ever taken care of it'll take ALL DAY.

 

[satindesire]

In truth I've never had someone take offense to it, maybe cause I don't mean it offensively.

You're -lucky-.

I worked at a local restaurant (this was a few years ago) and was taking a to-go order for a woman who had stopped by. One of the bussers motioned to me from the kitchen, so I finished taking her order, then asked VERY politely "Sweetie, would you mind waiting here for just a minute? I'm gonna go put your order in and go to the back for a minute, I'll be right back."

Went to the kitchen, took care of business there, came right back. She was telling my manager that I needed to get fired for being rude because I called her an offensive name. He came down on me like I had called her a bitch or something, and when I said "I'm sorry, Sir, I had no idea she'd take offense to the word "sweetie"!"

The manager looked over at her like "What?!"