Not guilty by reason of insanity.

[Ishmael]

This thread was prompted by a very short exchange I had with Perg. last night.

I said, "Perg, as far as I'm concerned the only difference between severe emotional disturbance and insanity is a felony charge."

He replied, "I prefer medical science to Wild West justice."

Now, I think his reply was so out of context that it had little bearing on my statement. But within his reply was a discussion of sorts.

My statement was based on the observation that the term 'insane' has virtually fallen out of use these days beyond in a courtroom. Folks that are clearly off their nut are refered to as being 'emotionally disturbed" along with some three or four letter acronym that gives an overview of their troubles. That is until that individual commits an act that is so over the top that they end up in a court of law charged with a felony, at which point they become 'insane.'

As far as Pergs reply goes, I have no idea where the "wild west justice" quip came from and have no intention of even addressing that. Rather I'm focusing on the "medical science" portion. There is very little that has anything to do with maladies of the mind that have anything to do with science. Yes, there are some specific maladies that can be traced to specific chemical imbalances and yes, a great many can be treated with chemicals of one sort or another. But the diagnosis and treatments, for the most part, fall into the category of 'art'.

To call psychologists, or even psychaitrists scientists, is off the mark. While they may call themselves 'professionals', the fact is is that they open 'practices.' Just like medicine and law, the practice of the art is imprecise. There is no formula that they can plug-in values based on measurements, apply the result and get a wholly predictable response, that would be science.

As an example I offer up PTSD. (A malady that it seems more than a few on this board suffer from.) If you read the general definiton one is left with the inescapable conclussion that the greater majority of the human race are suffering from the malady. There are a host of manifestations of symptoms of PTSD, it is not a case of one particular trauma produces one particular symptom. And even then the treatment requires fine tuning to fit the individual. This requires a skill on the part of the treatment provider that transcends science and that drags us into the realm of 'art.'

Make no mistake, I'm not diminshing the skill of these individuals. Many are quite accomplished practitioners of their art. And "art" is the key word here. Like the individual that has a degree in mathmatics, they are practicing an art. I apply no stigma to the differentiation between science and art, both are a valuable component of a society. But don't confuse one with the other or invoke one over the other in an attempt to give weight to a discussion or comment where no such weight exists.

Ishmael

 

[John Doe]

This thread was prompted by a very short exchange I had with Perg. last night.

I said, "Perg, as far as I'm concerned the only difference between severe emotional disturbance and insanity is a felony charge."

He replied, "I prefer medical science to Wild West justice."

Now, I think his reply was so out of context that it had little bearing on my statement. But within his reply was a discussion of sorts.

My statement was based on the observation that the term 'insane' has virtually fallen out of use these days beyond in a courtroom. Folks that are clearly off their nut are refered to as being 'emotionally disturbed" along with some three or four letter acronym that gives an overview of their troubles. That is until that individual commits an act that is so over the top that they end up in a court of law charged with a felony, at which point they become 'insane.'

As far as Pergs reply goes, I have no idea where the "wild west justice" quip came from and have no intention of even addressing that. Rather I'm focusing on the "medical science" portion. There is very little that has anything to do with maladies of the mind that have anything to do with science. Yes, there are some specific maladies that can be traced to specific chemical imbalances and yes, a great many can be treated with chemicals of one sort or another. But the diagnosis and treatments, for the most part, fall into the category of 'art'.

To call psychologists, or even psychaitrists scientists, is off the mark. While they may call themselves 'professionals', the fact is is that they open 'practices.' Just like medicine and law, the practice of the art is imprecise. There is no formula that they can plug-in values based on measurements, apply the result and get a wholly predictable response, that would be science.

As an example I offer up PTSD. (A malady that it seems more than a few on this board suffer from.) If you read the general definiton one is left with the inescapable conclussion that the greater majority of the human race are suffering from the malady. There are a host of manifestations of symptoms of PTSD, it is not a case of one particular trauma produces one particular symptom. And even then the treatment requires fine tuning to fit the individual. This requires a skill on the part of the treatment provider that transcends science and that drags us into the realm of 'art.'

Make no mistake, I'm not diminshing the skill of these individuals. Many are quite accomplished practitioners of their art. And "art" is the key word here. Like the individual that has a degree in mathmatics, they are practicing an art. I apply no stigma to the differentiation between science and art, both are a valuable component of a society. But don't confuse one with the other or invoke one over the other in an attempt to give weight to a discussion or comment where no such weight exists.

Ishmael

You're not really in a good position to judge that.

 

[sweepthefloor]

These artists are practicing, but it is also science because it is backed by evidenced based practice, meaning there are values and research. While this psychiatric art science is not the same as objective data, such as measuring a blood pressure, there are still tools, and science behind it. MRIs of the disturbed and such light up differently. The insane, such as in schizophrenia, is often labeled as "organic brain disease."

Just my opinion.

 

[Weird Harold]

I said, "Perg, as far as I'm concerned the only difference between severe emotional disturbance and insanity is a felony charge."

Actually, you're very close. "Insane" is a legal term unrelated to the specific pathology or psychoses that causes it. It doesn't matter if the accused is "unable to distinguish right from wrong" because of a brain tumor or because of lack parental disipline as a child because either cause creates the same specific symptom --which may or may not be the only symptom.

So, yeah, until the legal system gets involved there is no need for a diagnosis of "insane" so a felony charge does turn "emotional disturbed" into "Insane."

 

[Spider Rand]

You can reduce cooking to simply executing a simple recipe, a scientific procedure design to produce something edible and palatable, but good cooks are artists who adjust and adapt and improve upon the formula, even create new formulas.

Often a practitioner of medicine, law or any of a number of similar fields is nothing more than someone following a recipe, tweaking the formula a little bit to suit individual tastes.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Gotta love Ishmael's tortured interpretation of "science".

Medicine? Heck no, that's not "science".

Crackpots that promote the theory that oil is a renewable resource? Why, that's "science", by golly!

Economic charlatans that promote theories that validate conservative talking points? Hey, that's "science" too!

 

[Peregrinator]

This should be an interesting discussion.

Ish, my reply was in context. I said I thought LT was more Axis II than Axis I. You said "whatever" and then came with the legalistic stuff about insanity and felony charge. My point was that a taxonomy exists and we might as well use it, rather than pointing and saying "dude is nucking futs!"

As Sweep pointed out, there are quantifiable differences in the brains of people with organic brain issues. That's science, not art. Then there are people like LT, who I'm guessing would probably show normal on a brain scan--wild guess on my part, obviously--but are clearly disturbed.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

But Perg, LT is fucking nuts...





Most of it is cultural since it seems to be race-based; a sort of embryonic Obama.

 

[Ishmael]

This should be an interesting discussion.

Ish, my reply was in context. I said I thought LT was more Axis II than Axis I. You said "whatever" and then came with the legalistic stuff about insanity and felony charge. My point was that a taxonomy exists and we might as well use it, rather than pointing and saying "dude is nucking futs!"

As Sweep pointed out, there are quantifiable differences in the brains of people with organic brain issues. That's science, not art. Then there are people like LT, who I'm guessing would probably show normal on a brain scan--wild guess on my part, obviously--but are clearly disturbed.

I conceded the organic issues up front so I see no need in running down that mink hole.

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

I conceded the organic issues up front so I see no need in running down that mink hole.

Ishmael

Cool. I think as far as usage of "insane" goes, it was once a medical term and moved from there to a lay description. Medicine doesn't use it any more, so it's falling into disfavor. Somewhat like "mongoloid" for people with Downs, or "negroid" for folks of african descent.

 

[where]

According to the new DSM-5 we are all pretty much mentally ill now.

but for once, I agree with ish and AJ, le jerk is clearly completely fucking nuts. God knows what his diagnosis is, but the idea that he is around kids (assuming that bit is actually true) is pretty worrying.

 

[Ishmael]

Cool. I think as far as usage of "insane" goes, it was once a medical term and moved from there to a lay description. Medicine doesn't use it any more, so it's falling into disfavor. Somewhat like "mongoloid" for people with Downs, or "negroid" for folks of african descent.

Actually the terms used for human subspecies are still in use in various disciplines and while 'negroid' has been replaced by more specific terms, 'mongoloid'is still in use although not in the context that you presented.

WRT 'insane', you're correct, it has fallen into disfavor. Or to be more specific, it has been replaced with a host of terms the denote more specificity. A careful reading of the definition of 'insane' indicates that it is basically the set of all sets that contain those with mental conditions.

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

According to the new DSM-5 we are all pretty much mentally ill now.

but for once, I agree with ish and AJ, le jerk is clearly completely fucking nuts. God knows what his diagnosis is, but the idea that he is around kids (assuming that bit is actually true) is pretty worrying.

Yeah, one of the issues with the DSM is that it codes things so people can make their insurance companies cough up for treatment. You can't submit a bill for treatment for "nucking futs," but you can for "borderline personality disorder with adjustment syndrome."

Actually the terms used for human subspecies are still in use in various disciplines and while 'negroid' has been replaced by more specific terms, 'mongoloid'is still in use although not in the context that you presented.

WRT 'insane', you're correct, it has fallen into disfavor. Or to be more specific, it has been replaced with a host of terms the denote more specificity. A careful reading of the definition of 'insane' indicates that it is basically the set of all sets that contain those with mental conditions.

Ishmael

Yeah, I realize that sociologists and geneticists and whatnot may still use those words. No one uses "mongoloid" for Down Syndrome any more. It still has the legitimate demographic use.

Yes, you're right; insane is possibly the broadest of them all. Though you delineated it in the post I replied to that prompted this thread.

 

[Ishmael]

Yes, you're right; insane is possibly the broadest of them all. Though you delineated it in the post I replied to that prompted this thread.

I really didn't delineate Perg, I merely implied that LT hasn't been charged with a felony.............yet.

Ishmael

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I really didn't delineate Perg, I merely implied that LT hasn't been charged with a felony.............yet.

Ishmael

He'd have to leave the confines of his mother's garage and none of us really see that actually happening...

 

[Ishmael]

He'd have to leave the confines of his mother's garage and none of us really see that actually happening...

He's roaming the inter-webs and the way things are going that just might be enough.

Ishmael

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

*snort*

 

[kbate]

Little science involved in the mental health fields. The civilian mental health field has evolved primarily to sell select and new drugs in order to let people custom tailor the way they feel. The criminal mental health field has come to, "culpable or not culpable". Guilt (although admitted) no longer applies once a criminal claims temporary insanity or insanity as a reason for their actions and the trial becomes a contest between police/DA paid quacks who claim "not insane" and defense paid quacks who claim, "Insane".

Psychiatrists are MDs, but when their primary test for insanity (or emotional trauma or distress) is to listen to the complaint of the patient (who admittedly isn't right in the head) and to prescribe a drug based on that complaint without any medical tests whatsoever (such as drawing blood or fluids to check for that supposed chemical imbalance they assure us exists) - I've got a problem with calling it science. /rant

LT would never step into a Psychiatrist's office. His pathos is megalomania and that disease contraindicates the treatment.

 

[cjh]

Weird Harold nailed it.

The legal standard is an anachronism from the 1850s. Unless you are working with a forensic psychiatrist or psychologist who already understands the standard, trying to find an expert is maddening because they all say,"There is no medical condition known as insanity." You have to give them a legal history lesson on the Mcnaughten Standard: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M'Naghten_Rules?wasRedirected=true

 

[where]

Yeah, one of the issues with the DSM is that it codes things so people can make their insurance companies cough up for treatment. You can't submit a bill for treatment for "nucking futs," but you can for "borderline personality disorder with adjustment syndrome."

.

except that now you can submit a bill for treatment for 'at risk of psychosis syndrome' which is considerably different from a personality disorder. They are basically saying that anyone can now be classified as nuts. Will people get the health-care they possibly need because they are 'at risk'? Or is this just another way of labelling and categorising individuals who don't conform to the norm?

 

[Ishmael]

except that now you can submit a bill for treatment for 'at risk of psychosis syndrome' which is considerably different from a personality disorder. They are basically saying that anyone can now be classified as nuts. Will people get the health-care they possibly need because they are 'at risk'? Or is this just another way of labelling and categorising individuals who don't conform to the norm?

You swerved right into where I was going. The broad umbrella of insanity has been spread to include the greater portion of the population if not humanity in general. If you get a group of psychologists together they only argue over degree. (And when they leave the room they ownder about their colleagues. *chuckle*

Now that the US is taking steps towards socialized medicine, and the way our government works, I'm certain that we can look forward to an endless parade of 'victims' presented by the 'champions' of even the most obscure and benign mental disorder so they can get their fair share of the health care dollars. Politics and medicine will become hopelessly intertwined to the point that from a practical stand-point one would barely be able to differentiate one from the other.

What a wild wide that's going to be.

Ishmael

 

[kbate]

You swerved right into where I was going. The broad umbrella of insanity has been spread to include the greater portion of the population if not humanity in general. If you get a group of psychologists together they only argue over degree. (And when they leave the room they ownder about their colleagues. *chuckle*

Now that the US is taking steps towards socialized medicine, and the way our government works, I'm certain that we can look forward to an endless parade of 'victims' presented by the 'champions' of even the most obscure and benign mental disorder so they can get their fair share of the health care dollars. Politics and medicine will become hopelessly intertwined to the point that from a practical stand-point one would barely be able to differentiate one from the other.

What a wild wide that's going to be.l

Why do you think the pharmaceuticals were on board with the legislation? could it be a potential windfall as everyone will be able to rush to the local Pshrinker and get the drug of the day? You think Prozac swept the nation in the 80s - wait until payment for the next drug-of-choice comes from the national tit.

 

[Ishmael]

Why do you think the pharmaceuticals were on board with the legislation? could it be a potential windfall as everyone will be able to rush to the local Pshrinker and get the drug of the day? You think Prozac swept the nation in the 80s - wait until payment for the next drug-of-choice comes from the national tit.

I wouldn't presume to dispute you on that.

Just think, an entire population on prescription psychotropic drugs. What a wonderful world that will be, especially for the politicians. Imagine a nation where the radicals are the ones that are drug free.

Ishmael

 

[where]

You swerved right into where I was going. The broad umbrella of insanity has been spread to include the greater portion of the population if not humanity in general. If you get a group of psychologists together they only argue over degree. (And when they leave the room they ownder about their colleagues. *chuckle*

Now that the US is taking steps towards socialized medicine, and the way our government works, I'm certain that we can look forward to an endless parade of 'victims' presented by the 'champions' of even the most obscure and benign mental disorder so they can get their fair share of the health care dollars. Politics and medicine will become hopelessly intertwined to the point that from a practical stand-point one would barely be able to differentiate one from the other.

What a wild wide that's going to be.

Ishmael

didn't swerve into anything. I explicitly stated in my first post that we are basically all nuts now.

we have universal healthcare here already and we also use the DSM. What will happen in the USA under universal care is that mental health issues will be sidelined with only the most dangerous to society and themselves getting treatment. The rest will have to go private as in the UK.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I'd like to think I'm designer nuts...




Pistachio, banana nut, something colorful...




Basically is so pedestrian.