Lit will be missing one of its Group Sex Cat readers for a while

[Kev H]

Not pressuring there, just felt in the mood for a little snark.

But seriously, there's a reason this is a felony. They're kids for crying out loud. Whether you think they could have "just said no" I don't think they could have with all the pressure they must have been under. At that age you're still emotionally and intellectually undeveloped, you look at adults as authority figures and it's tremdously difficult to stand your own ground, add to that the pressure of being in with a group of your peers and afraid of being seen as less than a man or whatever by them and there's no way a normal kid could assert themselves in that situation.

The adult holds a big power trip over the minor and it is quite certainly abuse when this happens to children, no matter the gender.

Okay, your sorta-apology is accepted. Tell me you knew plenty of kids growing up who knew how to say no. I was surrounded by them and was one of them--we were uncomfortable even going to parties because we didn't feel ready, or didn't want to "be wild and crazy." That's why they call them phases, because they come and go when the time is right. Now don't get me wrong--I have no idea if these particular kids had a choice or not, but I'm betting they knew what they were getting into and where it could lead when they accepted or asked for that first drink.

As one example only, say the first kid has sex with the woman and then tells one of his buddies about it and says, "You really should try it--it's amazing!" So, is this pressure? Horrible, innocence-ripping pressure? I (or any of the friends I knew) would have just said something like, "Man, that's gross--she could be like your mother, and she's our friend's mother. Don't tell me about that shit--it's fucked up!" Unless, we wanted to experience it... 15-year-old boys make their own choices all the time (don't you remember making tons of choices when you were that age?), regardless of any peer pressure, and their choices begin to shape their experiences.

I think I get the power thing, because it's related to influence, but again, kids are not mindless, imprint-able drones. They made the choices to go to the parties, use the substances, and be inducted into the hall of fame (or infamy, depending on the crowd--and yes I'm using humor here, but don't hold that against my argument). We know the woman acted poorly and was very wrong, but compartmentalize that for a second to answer this: how does it victimize her willing partners unless you can prove she somehow coerced them (meaning: against their will) into doing it...over and over for three months? Picture the entire scenario: they went back for more and would have kept on going back for more had an outside party not busted them.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Yes.

You've taught this age, same as I have. You understand.

Adolescent brains are works in progress. They haven't cooked long enough yet. Drugged or liquored up or no, they aren't capable of consenting with an adult.

Uh-huh. When I was first getting into studio art, I used to practice drawing portraits of my students at lunch. Then came the day when one little beauty, and she was one of the most beautiful little girls I ever taught, offered to pose for figure studies . . . with her mother in the room! You want to see how fast teacher can gently and respectfully quash such nonsense? Man! "Dear, when you turn eighteen, bring your birth certificate around and we'll talk. Until then, no!"

 

[Guest]

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[TE999]

No, it wasn't. (see bolded part)

Her daughter came home, caught her having sex with one of the boys. The boy apologized to the daughter on Facebook, his parents saw it, and alerted police. See my post with a more updated article. #11

And Tom, this same situation happened in my school district. And I know all the parties involved. It went on for more than a year.

The lady is in jail, deservedly so. The kid, who was a solid leader and gifted student, is pretty messed up. Still. Yay indoctrination.

Whoops, my bad. Note to self: read entire thread.

I know incidents like this don't always end well (they did for me, but I was 16 and she was 37, but I digress) and I'm not condoning the drugs and alky angle or that she did it at all...like I said, that was selfish and stupid and she deserves what she gets.

I guess I'm not in step with this whole extended adolescence attitude...I'm also not in favor of giving 5th Graders condoms like that elementary school in Massachusetts wanted to do...each case rises and falls on it's own merits I suppose.

Oh well, back to writing some good clean over 18yo porn.

sarahh

 

[Guest]

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[Kev H]

I agree with this. At twelve years old I was six feet tall with a hairy chest, a full beard and I could bench press almost three hundred pounds. Total freak of nature. My dad had to carry my birth certificate on him just so I could play Little League. I got hit on by older women ALL the time. My parents would always step in and set things straight. Until I was fourteen. I had a lot more freedom and no one around to cock block me. Things happened.

I was absolutely no victim.

Also, the women involved had no idea I was under eighteen, but that wouldn't have mattered in court.

I'm not saying what she did was right, but I highly doubt these boys were harmed. Double standards are not fair, but in this case I think it's unavoidable. I think the idea of a 40 year old man doing the same thing to young girls seems worse because with men it usually comes across as an overt predatory situation. With fourteen year old boys, and speaking as a former fourteen year old boy, I don't think any of that was necessary. They were probably partying with the booze and weed anyway and this was just something else that happened.

She needs to be punished to some extent because of the illegality of what was going on, but I think she needs more counseling than anything.

This is what I have been maintaining (minus the pertinent personal experience); boys that age want to be men--they want to get pussy (their body is screaming for it, and for thousands of years, it has been understood and accepted). There is no victimization going on here, I am 99% sure of it (still scratching my head at the whole power angle).

Yes, double standards suck, but then, so does nature--we deal with it, or we get bitter or become wussies (or take up some crusade and do chest beating). Those boys, unless they are bent by pressure from women on this crusade or religious dogma, will likely admit they had a blast and learned alot they hope to apply again very soon. Crying "rape" on this case is akin to crying wolf, in my opinion; there is no wolf here (only a cougar--heh, sorry, couldn't resist).

 

[TE999]

I think we're inexplicably bound by our personal experiences.

I read your other post about spoiled children on Pure's poll. I dunno. The world is different now. Technology has changed so many things, it's almost attempting to compare apples and oranges. Anyway.

You should maybe reread that article about the 5th grade condom thing, too. Just saying.

Oh crap! Again??? I gotta get out more.

sarahh - 2 Tom - 0.

 

[Guest]

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[michchick98]

Why get into the differences between boys and girls? As everyone said, if it was a 40 year old man having sex with a 14 year old girl, people would be appalled and calling to string him up by his nuts.

But for most of you posting to this thread, it's okay that it was a 40 year old woman having sex with a 14 year old boy because that's just how boys are?

I've heard of plenty of cases on the news about the older man having consentual sex with the teenger, yet he's still being charged with statutory rape.

Regardless if they boys wanted it or not, regardless if they consented to it or not, it's still statutory rape.

There's a friend of the family who nearly went to jail a few years back because he was 18 and having sex with his 16 year old girlfriend. She got pregnant because supposedly they said the condom broke. Whatever the reason, her parents knew about it, his parents knew about it, and they (the parents) supported the couple because they were doing the responsible thing by keeping the baby.

But someone who obviously couldn't mind their own business had a problem with it and anonymously called CPS on them. After a visit from CPS, the young couple was given two options: they either had to get married or they boy would go to jail for statutory rape.

And this was CONSENSUAL sex! Obviously, they opted to get married.

So in the case of this mother, what would've happened if she'd gotten pregnant from one of these teens? Then what? Would that 14 year old boy be ready to be a father? Would he be telling his friends how awesome it was? Do you think they'd still want to be men and get that pussy?

This instance is no different than if it were a 40 year old man and a 14 year old girl. It's statutory rape. Period.

statutory rape: carnal abuse (sexual intercourse with a person (girl or boy) who has not reached the age of consent (even if both parties participate willingly))

And to those who think to lash out at me, don't bother. This will be my only post on the matter. You have your beliefs and I have mine and I won't be forced into changing them because you're so outraged by what I've posted.

 

[Boota]

Michchick, no outrage here.

Your friends situation was wrong, and all too common. I know a guy who is on the sex offender registry for life because he turned 18 two months before his girlfriend and her dad pressed charges. He did time for it. Then he got out and married her. Now the guy has a son-in-law who has trouble finding good work to take care of the man's daughter and grandkids because of that reaction. Not fair at all.

My grandpa would have been sent to prison today. He was 23 and my grandmother was 13 when they got married. Shocking and scandalous by today's standards, but back then that was just how it was done.

I guess every situation has to be held on it's own, but there is very definitely a double standard, like it or not.

 

[TE999]

You owe me two kisses?

I accept.

Lucky me...and we're both over 18 yo so it's ok.

 

[Kev H]

Yep.

What sort of mother was that, anyway? Sounds like a stage mommy with serious plans.

This post is mainly directed at the experienced ones like Sweets and VM: So, about this power/influence thing... (The power you are taking about is the influence, right, as opposed to physical power to force?) Are you sure you're not negating the effects of respect/believability when making your valuation?

For example, when I was young, I had an entire culture of respectable adults telling me some all-powerful loving god made us but needed to be cleansed a certain way or I'd go to hell, and it wasn't long before I went from parroting to doubting to searching for truths elsewhere. I know plenty of "kids" who felt the same. Bullshit still smells like bullshit when you're an adolescent, as long as you have a variety of influences to learn from (i.e., no brainwashing from one single source).

So how different is it for some mom to flirt with a boy? If the boy thinks she's a skank or even if he doesn't feel she's a good mom or that she's misleading him, he's not going to fall for any advances--again, I don't see boys that age as some imprint-ready creature who can be easily manipulated into having sex with this woman when they really don't want to.

How can she have power over them if they want to have sex with her? She's not twisting their arm, compelling them to like her enough to have sex; she's not offering some of her adult power in exchange ("hey, big boy, I'll let you drive my car if you fuck me"--though you could make a case for the sexual experience angle, but again, that's exactly what the boys want); she's not tricking them by claiming she just needs to check them for ticks or pimples; they can easily say "no thanks" to the alcohol, which was flowing at all their parties for the other kids, if I understand t right, so she wasn't targeting them in a predatory manner (or was she?). (Also, if she got the boys too wasted, they'd not have had much sex, so it's safe to presume it was small amounts so they could all feel buzzed. Agreed?)

If you must cling to your stance because you're teachers and would be fired if you were honest, then please say so; otherwise, I'd really like to understand why you think she used power on the boys to rape/victimize them.

 

[Kev H]

Michchick, no outrage here.

Your friends situation was wrong, and all too common. I know a guy who is on the sex offender registry for life because he turned 18 two months before his girlfriend and her dad pressed charges. He did time for it. Then he got out and married her. Now the guy has a son-in-law who has trouble finding good work to take care of the man's daughter and grandkids because of that reaction. Not fair at all.

My grandpa would have been sent to prison today. He was 23 and my grandmother was 13 when they got married. Shocking and scandalous by today's standards, but back then that was just how it was done.

I guess every situation has to be held on it's own, but there is very definitely a double standard, like it or not.

Same here, Michchick--you won't get any ranting from me, but I must comment that two wrongs don't make a right, especially in cases that ought to be handled on an individual basis. What happened to your friend of the family was nightmarish, but let's not apply the same nightmarish standard to this woman if it doesn't apply. Deal? This isn't a one-size-fits-all kind of world, and it's our privilege/responsibility as adults to understand that and deal with it.

And on a cheeky/goofy note, treating a boy like a girl might just turn him into a pussy. There are obvious gender differences and they should be a point in any reasoned discussion.

 

[michchick98]

Michchick, no outrage here.

Your friends situation was wrong, and all too common. I know a guy who is on the sex offender registry for life because he turned 18 two months before his girlfriend and her dad pressed charges. He did time for it. Then he got out and married her. Now the guy has a son-in-law who has trouble finding good work to take care of the man's daughter and grandkids because of that reaction. Not fair at all.

My grandpa would have been sent to prison today. He was 23 and my grandmother was 13 when they got married. Shocking and scandalous by today's standards, but back then that was just how it was done.

I guess every situation has to be held on it's own, but there is very definitely a double standard, like it or not.

Okay, so I lied, I am posting again, but this is a different response than what I was expecting.

Thanks for not jumping up and down and telling me how wrong I was, Boota.

Anyway, I often wondered, if the situations were reversed with my friend and his now wife (she was 18 and he was 16) if the same "rules" would've applied. If she was having consensual sex with her 16 year old boyfriend and got pregnant, would that nosy neighbor, or whoever it was who made the call to CPS, still have made that call? I'm guessing not, because of the double standards.

Bottom line, what the mother did was wrong and she should be punished just as a man would be.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Yep.

What sort of mother was that, anyway? Sounds like a stage mommy with serious plans.

I'm not quite sure it was exactly that. Daughter sure wanted to act and model but the poor thing, while a natural actress, was only about 4'10" so the only kind of modeling she could ever have gotten into was glamour. Runway was completely out. Mom certainly supported daughter's ambitions but also backed me to the hilt about age-appropriate behavior. I tried to edge the kid towards a BFA and MFA in theater. That way if she could break into film, great. If not, there was always legitimate stage and teaching at any level where theatre was on the curriculum. Her younger brother seems to be doing well but I haven't heard from her in years.

 

[Boota]

Here's a seriously fucked up situation:

I used to work in a juvenile detention center. They brought in a sixteen year old boy and he was to be incarcerated until he was 18. What happened was that he got his nineteen year old girlfriend pregnant. The girls mother did her Christian duty and kicked her pregnant daughter out of the house. So that her grandchild wouldn't be born on the streets the boy's mother let the pregnant girl move in with them.

Pregnant girl's mom got mad that someone gave her "whore child" a place to live and called the authorities. The nineteen year old girl was arrested for child molestation. The boy's mother was arrested for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. The boy, a straight A student with a part-time job, now had nowhere to live and no form of support, so he was put into the system. Lost his job and had to graduate within the juvenile prison system. Doesn't look as good on a diploma as an actual high school.

That boy was victimized, but it wasn't the nineteen year old girl who did it. I always tried to help him out more than some of the other boys. He really didn't belong there and the law was just punishing good people trying to make the best of a bad situation.

I know it's completely different than the woman in this news story, just another example on how much worse the legal system can make these things.

 

[Guest]

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[voluptuary_manque]

Kev, I'm going to be patient with you. From your personal profile and what you have posted here, you seem to have had little contact with pre-adolescent and adolescent children. Therefore when Sarah and I, who have decades of experience with kiddos, state that such individuals are not autonomous you lapse back into denial of our arguments. Fine, go ahead. Your opinion is yours, you are entitled to it and this forum will allow you to trumpet it to the heavens. It's still wrong.

 

[Guest]

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[Boota]

And even though some people have memories of themselves at that age as being powerful and a babe magnet - um, probably not. It does happen, certainly. But not to the majority.

Must be talking about me.

 

[Guest]

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[Boota]

I know of a situation where it is reversed from what I said. The assistant principal at my high school had an on going affair with an underage student. I think she was sixteen. Doubly bad because of the power differential. He went to prison for a few years once he was caught, and no one would argue that he shouldn't have. But the girl instigated it. She made the choice to seduce him. Of course he should have said no. I knew the girl and I knew the situation. She just thought he was hot and went for it. The answer in that situation is not only no, but Hell No. Still he followed his penis right into prison.

This is more or less the same situation as the woman, but the double standard does come screaming into the scene. While I know the girl made the advances and planned the entire thing, I agree with his punishment. Mainly, I think, because of his position, but also it's hard to get over the idea of the man not being the aggressor.

Also, from being male, I remember my thought processes at that age. I've never been the average guy, but I also don't think my situation is as uncommon as some would imagine. I have a fifteen year old boy who is bigger than me, but he's very young emotionally. More into anime and video games. To my knowledge nothing like what happened with me has happened with him. I can't imagine he'd react well to a grown woman coming on to him. If she did, and forced herself on him, I'd think she needed to be jailed as well. But how much is forcing herself on him and how much is just making it available? I think if something was offered he'd politely excuse himself and try to extricate himself from the situation. The boys in that news story were coming from another place entirely. It has to be an individual situation, as far as that goes.

 

[Boota]

Nope! Although I can see how that came out - apologies.

My husband often tells the story of how he went to Scout camp and came home with a beard at age 14. His mom cried, he said, little boy grown up.

It does happen.

No apologies necessary.

It is weird, feeling like a kid and looking like a man. I was taller than most of the coaches in the baseball league I played in. After I moved on to the next league I would come back to the old ballpark to watch my younger brothers play. The new people there who had come along since I left had no idea I was only thirteen/fourteen years old. A lot of single moms were hitting on me, asking me out. That kind of thing. My mom snapped the first time it happened and ripped into this woman who almost broke down into tears. She said she thought I was over eighteen. After that my mom and dad just politely explained that I was a huge freak of nature. In nicer terms, of course.

 

[Guest]

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[Boota]

Yeah, they're going to get there, no matter how you'd like to slow them down.

I'm 6'2", my boy (actually my stepson) is about a half inch taller, and outweighs me. But he doesn't have the confidence I had at that age. He's had a lot different life than I had. I want to get him in the gym with me to try to help him build some confidence. I want him to get back into sports. I'm not trying to get him laid, but when the time comes I want him to put the down the Guitar Hero controller and step up. No hurry, but I don't want him to be a hulking man-child, either.

My wife and I plan to try being reasonable about our kids becoming sexually active. And it's coming soon. A fifteen year old boy, twin thirteen year old girls, and an eleven year old boy. We hear how they talk with their friends, monitor their online activity. It's coming fast.