Penetration

[BiBunny]

Is it redundant for me to say no?

Of course not.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I just think these tit for tat posts are boring.

I was actually hoping Netz and Stella would clarify or say more about whether not liking cock - bio or non - is a character issue versus just a preference? I don't really understand how it's a character issue, unless the preference is fueled by homophobia. Although, I think there is a bit of literal homophobia that has been drilled into the minds of most straight men. Still, generally we don't choose our sexual desires.

Hmm.

If we don't choose our desires, then one that I didn't choose but do have is that I really, really, like to poke things into people and watch them scream like a hyena, grunt like a beast, and cum like a fucking waterfall. So there's that. My preference for people male and female that love penetration is a simple sexual preference.

I don't care why some guy runs out the door at the thought of being buttfucked. His reasons don't matter from my side of the bed. Why are his reasons my responsibility? If someone doesn't like being penetrated, I lose half my fun.

I also like to be penetrated, just as much--

And that's where the character assessment comes into it.

If he won't do it because he never did before and won't try something new then he's showing signs of being boring.

If he's tried it, didn't get off on it, tried it again, and just never got a response out of his prostate-- we are back at me not having as much fun as I like. Maybe we can find other fun things to do, for sure. At least he's willing to try twice.

If it's something that some dude can't allow for fear he'll turn into a girl-- than that's fucking insulting, because I am, in body, that thing that is so insulting to him.

The worst, worst thing about homophobia is that it's very often a phobia of femininity.

 

[satindesire]

If it's something that some dude can't allow for fear he'll turn into a girl-- than that's fucking insulting, because I am, in body, that thing that is so insulting to him.

The worst, worst thing about homophobia is that it's very often a phobia of femininity.

Ooo, and that just makes me SO angry, too. What's wrong with being a girl?

GRRR!!!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ooo, and that just makes me SO angry, too. What's wrong with being a girl?

GRRR!!!

I guess that would depend on who you ask.

What I say is what's wrong with being a little bit feminine? It adds, not subtracts, from a man's personality.

Oh boy, does it ever...

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>

Most of those switches aren't controlled by me in any concious fashion. I have learned to recognize them over time (like the easy smile) so that I know what is going on, but I still can't control most of them. I do know that any number of them have been created or influenced by things throughout my life (nuture over nature) and, while I don't think that I am a homophobic, I will admit that there is probably a swith in there somewhere that says, "Guys? Yes or no?"

You can't control it, but you can examine why you have a certain reaction.

Liking cock isn't.

Being wigged out about physical penetration to the point of paralysis is. Unless something horrible happened to you to traumatize, I just don't get it, and life it too short for me to fuck people I can't possibly understand.

Not really a character issue, for me. More a stack of issues I don't want to deal with in my romantic relationships, a stance I find distasteful. I'm allowed to do that, I hope, seeing as female controllingness or assertion is so damn distasteful to every second person on earth?

Again: apply this to women and no one would really question it for a split second. Jesus, fuck - look at the G SPOT thread in HT and you're a freak if you don't G Gasm. Seriously? I don't have to feel apologetic over this for a second.

"Why oh why does this impugn on my character, I can help it no more than my eye color "- I guess that's one way of looking at it, and if that's how you look at it that's fair to ask.

To me, getting fucked is a physical decision like "trying Miller Lite." So there's clearly a disconnect. If you are having a fainting fit at the thought of trying the halibut, I lose compatibility fast, it's no different to me.

The issue is universal, male penetration angst. Gays enjoy it too. Seen shortbus? It's really good - it's two separate quests, and the quest of the main gay character is to make peace with the notion of penetration - spiritual, emotional, physical.

There is a deep universal paranoia of things going in male ass. The continuation of the dialogue shows it. Things going in girls is "no shit."

I don't accept it in my personal fuckverse, penetration-aversion from other person. Any more than control is accepted in other people's.

Well, the fainting bit all makes sense.

I wonder if there is a difference in attitudes of straight men in their 20s v. their 30s. Unless this fear of penetration is like a deep Freudian thing or something.

I've not seen that movie, but it sounds good.

Hmm.

If we don't choose our desires, then one that I didn't choose but do have is that I really, really, like to poke things into people and watch them scream like a hyena, grunt like a beast, and cum like a fucking waterfall. So there's that. My preference for people male and female that love penetration is a simple sexual preference.

I don't care why some guy runs out the door at the thought of being buttfucked. His reasons don't matter from my side of the bed. Why are his reasons my responsibility? If someone doesn't like being penetrated, I lose half my fun.

I also like to be penetrated, just as much--

And that's where the character assessment comes into it.

If he won't do it because he never did before and won't try something new then he's showing signs of being boring.

If he's tried it, didn't get off on it, tried it again, and just never got a response out of his prostate-- we are back at me not having as much fun as I like. Maybe we can find other fun things to do, for sure. At least he's willing to try twice.

If it's something that some dude can't allow for fear he'll turn into a girl-- than that's fucking insulting, because I am, in body, that thing that is so insulting to him.

The worst, worst thing about homophobia is that it's very often a phobia of femininity.

That all makes sense actually. But is that what homophobia is at its core? Is it a fear of something physical, or a fear of being outcast?

 

[Stella_Omega]

You can't control it, but you can examine why you have a certain reaction...

That all makes sense actually. But is that what homophobia is at its core? Is it a fear of something physical, or a fear of being outcast?

I am sure it's different for different people. The more pertinent questions are;

Can homophobia be overcome in a particular individual? and;

How will this person's homophobia impact other people?


As far as the phobic response-- you will see a huge difference between straight men who have grown up with good friends who were overtly gay (generally this means an urban artsy environment) and straight men who grew up ignorant of any homosexuals (because the gay boys stayed closeted for fear of their lives) and in an atmosphere where anti-gay sentiment is applauded and encouraged.

Many many men grow up around gay men and remain happily and resolutely straight. Straight is not a choice for them, either. But our society has some twisted values as regards what is and what is not masculine. A man can enjoy penetration without being in the least bit gay.

 

[BiBunny]

Gayness or bisexuality doesn't necessarily mean a loss of masculinity, either. I watched my bisexual Master work for on Kitty's car for several hours in the heat on Saturday afternoon. I might've been drooling over the overt display of "grr, me MAN!"

I do think the exploration of penetration and the concept of masculinity is fascinating. I'm cursed with a love of big, burly men with that sort of stereotypical redneck appearance and general competence at traditional masculine things. In addition, I require them to be intelligent and bisexual and switchy.

Yeah, I'm picky. And it's hard to find anyone who fits the bill. But I think that may be as much a product of societal conditioning, particularly where I'm from, as me just being a hard to please bitch.

 

[Netzach]

Gayness or bisexuality doesn't necessarily mean a loss of masculinity, either.

Or an enjoyment of being penetrated, frankly. At least not so anyone would notice who didn't know how to see it.

 

[BiBunny]

Or an enjoyment of being penetrated, frankly. At least not so anyone would notice who didn't know how to see it.

That, too.

 

[Homburg]

The worst, worst thing about homophobia is that it's very often a phobia of femininity.

This is something I've never understood about my fellow males.

Your girlfriend asks you, the boyfriend, to hold her purse while she tries on some clothes in the dept store. She is not physically in your presence and thus you are alone holding a purse.

Many guys I know will whine and gripe (so manly) because it's a giiiiirl's purse. They don't want to carry an overt symbol of femininity for, well, fuck if I can get a rational explanation.

Maybe they worry about other men seeing them and, uh, picking on them? My thoughts on that are "I have a woman that trusts me enough to hold her purse. I rate. Rawr."

Maybe they worry about associating with said overt symbol of the distaff side and thus hampering their male image? Me, I look at myself critically and realise that I do not express any sort of sexual identity other than straight dude, and am comfortable in my sexuality. I don't feel challenged because I hold a purse.

I don't get it. Honestly. There is nothing wrong with women. I rather enjoy them. Whey would I want to avoid some symbol of femininity? Why would I worry about these things if I am solid in my own identity. Makes me wonder about my friends that do gripe about such things.

 

[IrisAlthea]

This is something I've never understood about my fellow males.

Your girlfriend asks you, the boyfriend, to hold her purse while she tries on some clothes in the dept store. She is not physically in your presence and thus you are alone holding a purse.

Many guys I know will whine and gripe (so manly) because it's a giiiiirl's purse. They don't want to carry an overt symbol of femininity for, well, fuck if I can get a rational explanation.

Maybe they worry about other men seeing them and, uh, picking on them? My thoughts on that are "I have a woman that trusts me enough to hold her purse. I rate. Rawr."

Maybe they worry about associating with said overt symbol of the distaff side and thus hampering their male image? Me, I look at myself critically and realise that I do not express any sort of sexual identity other than straight dude, and am comfortable in my sexuality. I don't feel challenged because I hold a purse.

I don't get it. Honestly. There is nothing wrong with women. I rather enjoy them. Whey would I want to avoid some symbol of femininity? Why would I worry about these things if I am solid in my own identity. Makes me wonder about my friends that do gripe about such things.

I have met lots of women who don´t want their man to hold the purse.
Makes me wonder how they look at masculinity and at their man.

 

[JMohegan]

That all makes sense actually. But is that what homophobia is at its core? Is it a fear of something physical, or a fear of being outcast?

I suspect that the root of homophobia is usually one of three things. Either:

- Fear of one's own suppressed desires. (See the military guy in American Beauty.)

or

- Personal insecurity. Fear that one's own power or position in the world isn't what it should be. The bully syndrome, pushing down others in an attempt to prop oneself up.

or

- Deference to an organized religion which incorporates homophobia in its core. Obeisance to a preacher, rabbi, mullah, or any other grand poobah, who tells you that God hates fags, gay acts are heinous sins, etc.

 

[Netzach]

I have met lots of women who don´t want their man to hold the purse.
Makes me wonder how they look at masculinity and at their man.

Or money!

 

[JMohegan]

Liking cock isn't.

Being wigged out about physical penetration to the point of paralysis is. Unless something horrible happened to you to traumatize, I just don't get it, and life it too short for me to fuck people I can't possibly understand.

Not really a character issue, for me. More a stack of issues I don't want to deal with in my romantic relationships, a stance I find distasteful. I'm allowed to do that, I hope, seeing as female controllingness or assertion is so damn distasteful to every second person on earth?

Again: apply this to women and no one would really question it for a split second. Jesus, fuck - look at the G SPOT thread in HT and you're a freak if you don't G Gasm. Seriously? I don't have to feel apologetic over this for a second.

"Why oh why does this impugn on my character, I can help it no more than my eye color "- I guess that's one way of looking at it, and if that's how you look at it that's fair to ask.

To me, getting fucked is a physical decision like "trying Miller Lite." So there's clearly a disconnect. If you are having a fainting fit at the thought of trying the halibut, I lose compatibility fast, it's no different to me.

The issue is universal, male penetration angst. Gays enjoy it too. Seen shortbus? It's really good - it's two separate quests, and the quest of the main gay character is to make peace with the notion of penetration - spiritual, emotional, physical.

There is a deep universal paranoia of things going in male ass. The continuation of the dialogue shows it. Things going in girls is "no shit."

I don't accept it in my personal fuckverse, penetration-aversion from other person. Any more than control is accepted in other people's.

As far as I'm concerned, your preference for partners requires neither explanation nor apology.

I have never had a partner (casual or committed) offer me "halibut." Not once, in 52 years. And I've had a whole lot of encounters.

Which raises the question, in my mind. What's up with all these women having no professed interest in doing any physical penetrating? Are they suppressing urges to penetrate? Terrified of even making the suggestion? Or are they simply disinterested in acting as penetrator, and aroused by being penetrated?

As I said earlier, I perceive penetration as a form of conquest. You perceive it as 'Miller Lite,' which is fine. It seems likely to me that my perception is rooted in a host of deep-seated cultural attitudes toward male/female fucking. Attitudes that affect women as much as men, which may help explain the relative infrequency with which females express interest in that type of fish.

 

[Netzach]

As far as I'm concerned, your preference for partners requires neither explanation nor apology.

I have never had a partner (casual or committed) offer me "halibut." Not once, in 52 years. And I've had a whole lot of encounters.

Which raises the question, in my mind. What's up with all these women having no professed interest in doing any physical penetrating? Are they suppressing urges to penetrate? Terrified of even making the suggestion? Or are they simply disinterested in acting as penetrator, and aroused by being penetrated?

As I said earlier, I perceive penetration as a form of conquest. You perceive it as 'Miller Lite,' which is fine. It seems likely to me that my perception is rooted in a host of deep-seated cultural attitudes toward male/female fucking. Attitudes that affect women as much as men, which may help explain the relative infrequency with which females express interest in that type of fish.

Quite true.

Q: is the "rarity of women who'd like to penetrate their partner" as rare as all that? IME, no, not among the children of the seventies "have you seen shortbus?" demographic, anyway - in this case of my social circles a lot of pretty much straight girls with some f/f relationships in their past. I throw out that f/f experience will usually change your experience of penetration in some fashion, because it becomes anyone's guess. And you wonder why it's not like that in general, in some cases. I question the total rarity overall, and I also wonder if it's normalizing more every year.

other Q: is it a self-fulfilling prophecy? .00001 percent of the female population wants to do this, in reality, and I don't want to have to put on vinyl catwoman outfits so it just doesn't seem like it's worth it. Only it's not and you don't have to - but the reality isn't keeping up with the myth. I don't disbelieve for a split second that women in T's generation which is more or less yours, give or take a couple of years, are NOT generally asking if there's halibut on the menu, though, so your experience makes total sense.

The whole notion of straight suburban Jane even being able to get a hold of a dildo in a plain brown wrapper without a trip to a bookstore is only what, 15 years old. It's amazing.

 

[Stella_Omega]

As far as I'm concerned, your preference for partners requires neither explanation nor apology.

Well, ditto-- you needn't explain your preferences either. Except that you do and have. NO ONE has "apologised" to you in any way, nor ever will, and no one expects an apology from you, either.

I have never had a partner (casual or committed) offer me "halibut." Not once, in 52 years. And I've had a whole lot of encounters.

Which raises the question, in my mind. What's up with all these women having no professed interest in doing any physical penetrating? Are they suppressing urges to penetrate? Terrified of even making the suggestion? Or are they simply disinterested in acting as penetrator, and aroused by being penetrated?

I've never met one of those! I've met women who did not offer of their own accord, possibly because I was presenting such a butch persona-- but when I ask, I have always, always recieved. Straight women included.
Women, who generally have had a lifetime of training to be 'nice' and to be 'feminine,' tend to assess quickly, and act on their assessment-- especially around extra-masculine men. Maybe some of the women you've met would, but don't think you want, and so, don't bother to offer?

As I said earlier, I perceive penetration as a form of conquest. You perceive it as 'Miller Lite,' which is fine. It seems likely to me that my perception is rooted in a host of deep-seated cultural attitudes toward male/female fucking. Attitudes that affect women as much as men, which may help explain the relative infrequency with which females express interest in that type of fish.

Well, sure it's a form of conquest. Duh. And of course you have deep-rooted attitudes towards male and female roles-- men conquer simply because they bear the penis, women are conquered on account of they were born to be, with that not-a-penis vag of theirs.

It should be obvious that it's this deep-seated attitude of yours that makes you such an unsuitable bed-partner for a certain group of people. Do not mistake my condolences for an "apology."

 

[Netzach]

I'm not entirely on board with "conquest." It can be, if you want it to be and most people want it to be, because most people are drinking the kool aid. The person with the dick can also be the prize. If you want it to feel like something else, it will and can. This isn't saying that the word dog can actually mean the word car if you want it to, it's saying that you have a coyote as your totem. Those hung up on dog versus car are going to write you off as crazy anyway.

When you have one of those sorts who takes forever to have an orgasm and then she can't STOP and it's been what seems like years and you have a dick that doesn't get you off either, per se, you are now doing a thankless task, not winning. LOL. Fucking has meant so many different things in different iterations, the same position and the same person let alone other people and other games.

 

[Primalex]

What I say is what's wrong with being a little bit feminine? It adds, not subtracts, from a man's personality.

This doesn't make sense. It would mean traits are not opposed.

So, we define 'likes to have the ass fucked" as a feminine trait, then automatically "does not like to have the ass fucked" is defined as masculine trait - or else we would have to define it as neutral trait, like "likes to breathe".

If you add this trait, then you remove the opposing trait.

Now we could look at it not from a personality definition point of view, but some kind of "possibilities to experience pleasures" point of view. Then you would be right in this particular case, because he has one more option to experience pleasure than the other person. But this would be a very one sided rating (and would be interesting, if you add the trait:"likes little children". Does this add to someone's personality, too?) - you can see this when you use another example:

"Hates spiders" - if you add this trait, you will obviously fail to experience the love to a spider, you won't touch it, you won't allow it to run over your hand, you will never appreciate this creature for what it's worth. If you add this trait now to a person, do you add or subtract something from someone's personality?

You would have to argue that you add something to women, too, if you give them masculine traits. But in reality, you don't add something, you just synchronize the traits of women and men until they have the same. Who wants this?

 

[JMohegan]

Well, ditto-- you needn't explain your preferences either. Except that you do and have. NO ONE has "apologised" to you in any way, nor ever will, and no one expects an apology from you, either.

I can't decide if you just assume the worst from my posts because I'm a straight non-cock-taking male, or if you are genuinely misunderstanding me, or if you just can't resist the urge to be combative when addressing a guy with my preferences on this subject.

Regardless, here's why I referenced explanation and apology in responding to Netzach. See the bolded parts of her post in the excerpt below.

Not really a character issue, for me. More a stack of issues I don't want to deal with in my romantic relationships, a stance I find distasteful. I'm allowed to do that, I hope, seeing as female controllingness or assertion is so damn distasteful to every second person on earth?

Again: apply this to women and no one would really question it for a split second. Jesus, fuck - look at the G SPOT thread in HT and you're a freak if you don't G Gasm. Seriously? I don't have to feel apologetic over this for a second.

As far as I'm concerned, your preference for partners requires neither explanation nor apology.

 

[Netzach]

I've never met one of those! I've met women who did not offer of their own accord, possibly because I was presenting such a butch persona-- but when I ask, I have always, always recieved. Straight women included.

Really?

I'm pretty much butch in the sheets when it comes to this, so I probably ask less, but I have definitely met girls who'd rather die than deal with the performance angst.

I'm not sure you can really compare a dating pool of women queer enough to date me with straight women though. This surely accounts for a lot of the difference in POV in this discussion, as I'm watching it unfold, and I think for any unpleasant turn in it. We're talking about radically removed cultures de facto.

There really should be no mystery, no major mystery, if the marginalized express actual distaste for a paradigm that they've been held to and had rubbed in their face as "sexually correct" forever and all time. As the preference of individuals, heteronormativity is valid and fine and rah rah you go - as the mandatory law of sexuality it's a bit of a pill after a while.

If I use "likes heteronormative sexuality way too much" as an elimination tool in my dating along with "bad shoes" or "bad breath", it's probably not giving an otherwise perfectly nice guy a shot with me, but it's a useful sorting for BOTH of us.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I suspect that the root of homophobia is usually one of three things. Either:

- Fear of one's own suppressed desires. (See the military guy in American Beauty.)

or

- Personal insecurity. Fear that one's own power or position in the world isn't what it should be. The bully syndrome, pushing down others in an attempt to prop oneself up.

or

- Deference to an organized religion which incorporates homophobia in its core. Obeisance to a preacher, rabbi, mullah, or any other grand poobah, who tells you that God hates fags, gay acts are heinous sins, etc.

I'd also add an evolutionarily-honed urge to fill the world with humans, and thus, possibly, a biological auto-discriminate default for some people with regard to homosexuality.

 

[Netzach]

I'd also add an evolutionarily-honed urge to fill the world with humans, and thus, possibly, a biological auto-discriminate default for some people with regard to homosexuality.

Not buying it.

If you want to make babies that badly, you're busy making them, not killing fags.

Also, there's an evolutionary argument for homosexuality and other non-reproducers and a social one for NOT casting them out - more children than adults at any given time.

 

[JMohegan]

I'd also add an evolutionarily-honed urge to fill the world with humans, and thus, possibly, a biological auto-discriminate default for some people with regard to homosexuality.

Maybe humans in small tribes at the beginning of time, threatened with extermination by the Ice Age or something, developed a gay taboo in an attempt to perpetuate the species.

In contrast to that possibility is the fact that a body's a body. Barring illness or injury, from a physiological perspective we're all born bisexual switches. Physical pleasure is good, and it makes no sense to cut out half the population as possible partners for getting our rocks off.

And anyway, how could you explain ancient Greece, if that's so? They were closer to cavemen, by millennia, than we are. How did they escape that biological "auto-discriminate" default thing?

 

[IrisAlthea]

Or money!

True.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Really?

I'm pretty much butch in the sheets when it comes to this, so I probably ask less, but I have definitely met girls who'd rather die than deal with the performance angst.

I'm not sure you can really compare a dating pool of women queer enough to date me with straight women though. This surely accounts for a lot of the difference in POV in this discussion, as I'm watching it unfold, and I think for any unpleasant turn in it. We're talking about radically removed cultures de facto.

True-- come to think of it, I've never had a bi-curious woman in a BDSM-plus-sex scene. Vanilla, you can coax 'em a little. But any unpleasantness from me is not for JM's experiences-- it's for his assumptive manner, in the face of what he's been told.

There really should be no mystery, no major mystery, if the marginalized express actual distaste for a paradigm that they've been held to and had rubbed in their face as "sexually correct" forever and all time. As the preference of individuals, heteronormativity is valid and fine and rah rah you go - as the mandatory law of sexuality it's a bit of a pill after a while.

If I use "likes heteronormative sexuality way too much" as an elimination tool in my dating along with "bad shoes" or "bad breath", it's probably not giving an otherwise perfectly nice guy a shot with me, but it's a useful sorting for BOTH of us.

Exactly, and also-- exactly!

I'd also add an evolutionarily-honed urge to fill the world with humans, and thus, possibly, a biological auto-discriminate default for some people with regard to homosexuality.

Uh... Nope. being straight is obviously an evolutionary default, but hating and fearing gays is culturally instilled. There are plenty of cultures existing right now don't detest their gay men-- European, even.