A Master's 'right' to play with others

[JMohegan]

It's not poly? Not that it matters, but it's poly for her right? I mean, she loves both of them.

And yes, exactly. You can say it in two sentences or you can take up four posts.

Does it count as poly, if the two guys don't interact with one another? I don't know!

Whatever it is, it sounds challenging to me, from all ends. The "vanilla" husband is dealing with issues similar to the OP's, which makes this twist in the thread sort of ironic in a way.

 

[Netzach]

I agree with es, but also Netz's caveat. To me it depends on how different your situation is, even if only visually to the outside world.

We look like a typical straight couple, so yes, I can complain to my coworker about my husband, and I have had a counselor who was absolutely fine with D/s and power exchange. Finding a counselor who won't freak out about that stuff is much easier in a major urban area, but then so is finding a doctor who won't blink at the mention of anal sex. I have sex-positive vanilla friends who have similar challenges. And if I need D/s support, I can post here, or talk to one of my kinky friends. I do choose to keep certain things private from coworkers, casual friends, and family, but I don't feel any hardship related to that, because I have others to turn to for those kinds of issues.

I think your original statement was more about the emotions of D/s and/or open relationships. In that area, I don't see vanilla or D/s as easier or more difficult. Just sometimes different.

My take on it is that yes, the more you get off center the harder your life will be from outside forces. But I think in terms of inside forces, it really has little bearing. Look at a combative hetero vanilla couple and a happy kinked lesbian triad and the latter is an "easier relationship".

I also think difference and marginalization comes in a lot of flavors other than power exchange. A LOT. My relationship with H looks like a normal May/december heterosexual relationship unless I make it out to be something else. My marriage, which is, again, pretty dialed down in power dynamics, has left the heterosexual and gender-normative building in a far more confrontational way, unless pains are taken to hide this fact. I've been heading into some really confrontational gender stuff that no matter how supportive you are in your heart you are going to be blindsided by a bit. Ch ch ch changes.

So the implication that other weird relationship structures are harder than taking to the streets in matching shoes with your male bodied husband doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. Everyone has tsures.

 

[Primalex]

a happy kinked lesbian triad

Does this exist?

I have a hard time picturing three women getting along without drama for longer than a porn movie take.

 

[Netzach]

Does this exist?

I have a hard time picturing three women getting along without drama for longer than a porn movie take.

A little longer, sometimes.

 

[Homburg]

Whatever it is, it sounds challenging to me, from all ends. The "vanilla" husband is dealing with issues similar to the OP's, which makes this twist in the thread sort of ironic in a way.

Yeah, I noticed that myself.

I don't see it as two relationships. I see it as one larger dynamic.

It's not [(ES + hubby)] "is more/less complex than" [(ES + Daddy)]

It is [(ES + hubby) + (ES + Daddy)] "is more/less complex than" [(ES + hubby)]

Sorry about wandering into mathematical logic, but I can't really describe it otherwise. It's a moot point anyway. The PC tendency to equate everyone's struggles as value-neutral is predominant.

--

So the implication that other weird relationship structures are harder than taking to the streets in matching shoes with your male bodied husband doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. Everyone has tsures.

Just to be dead clear to everyone, my first example was hetero as compared to homosexual and bisexual. My core argument is that ANYTHING substantively outside of the "norm" will be inherently more complex due to societal expectations, pressures, conditioning, etc.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Uh, sorry, it is easier. It is easier in precisely the same way as hetero relationships are easier than homosexual or bisexual relationships, and monogamy is easier than poly. No relationship is "easy", but vanilla is the standard, it is what people expect. When you step outside the box, you are uncharted territory, face challenges that most people can't imagine, and have precious little support while doing it. Can you talk to your co-worker about something your dominant does that annoys you? Can you find a counselor to help if there are relationship troubles between you and your dominant? Can you find a therapist in the phone book that isn't going to freak out when you start talking D/s?

I'm all for not romanticising things and all for the idea that D/s relationship is just a relationship, but as hard? No. I disbelieve.

This strikes me as an almost purposeful misrepresentation of what I was saying. Go read Fuckmeat's thread on BDSM and Grief and tell me that vanilla is just as hard.

co-signed. when D/s encompasses your entire way of life, it can be dismally isolating. you have to create your own tiny little world you have some degree of support, understanding and acceptance...and many times that's not even possible. there is no person in my face to face life that i can talk to about normal relationship trials and woes. i have even been flat-out rejected by past friends because they were repulsed by my relationship. and after seeing many psychologists, psychiatrists and counselors of all stripes in the past, i never came across a single one who i could have talked to about my lifestyle...which is really, my entire life! so renders the whole process rather pointless.

so in the sense of having even a remotely supportive network around you, vanilla is absolutely easier. at least you have that base common ground to build from. but living the way i do, with most folks (even so-called "kinky" folks) i cannot even get my foot in the door.

 

[satindesire]

Just to be dead clear to everyone, my first example was hetero as compared to homosexual and bisexual. My core argument is that ANYTHING substantively outside of the "norm" will be inherently more complex due to societal expectations, pressures, conditioning, etc.

I understood you Hommie. And I agree. There are some things in BDSM style relationships that adds problems and communication issues that vanilla people won't ever have to deal with.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I understood you Hommie. And I agree. There are some things in BDSM style relationships that adds problems and communication issues that vanilla people won't ever have to deal with.

Hmm... My primary relationship is pretty much vanilla, and damn. If we had defined roles? Life would be so much easier right now.

 

[FungiUg]

Uh, sorry, it is easier.

Ooo, an argument! Pulls on stompy boots and jumps in.

No relationship is "easy", but vanilla is the standard, it is what people expect. When you step outside the box, you are uncharted territory, face challenges that most people can't imagine, and have precious little support while doing it.

I think that's what can make "vanilla" relationships surprisingly difficult. You have all of this support, you both know what to expect, and it's still hard? What's with that!

Humans aren't very good at "vanilla", if you assume "vanilla" is honest, hetero and monogamous. Just look at the statistics on bisexuality and cheating partners (if you can't find them, let me know and I'll make some up.)

Can you talk to your co-worker about something your dominant does that annoys you? Can you find a counselor to help if there are relationship troubles between you and your dominant? Can you find a therapist in the phone book that isn't going to freak out when you start talking D/s?

Actually, yes. Admittedly I'm in New Zealand, not the US. But I have been doing therapy around those very issues, and as a couple in the past.

I'm all for not romanticising things and all for the idea that D/s relationship is just a relationship, but as hard? No. I disbelieve.

This strikes me as an almost purposeful misrepresentation of what I was saying. Go read Fuckmeat's thread on BDSM and Grief and tell me that vanilla is just as hard.

I think is just how hard it is, based on the people within it. It's not a competition. It's also hard to compare.

I am in a relationship at the moment that is heavily dosed with D/s, is "open", technically polyamorous (can you be poly when there's only two of you?) and is easy. I'm almost positive it won't always be easy. At the same time, there's other stuff going on in my life that is not easy.

I don't believe that any relationship, whatever style, is either inherently "easy" or "hard". I suppose I would stretch the point for polyamorous relationships, because it's the people in the relationships that make it easy/hard, and poly relationships have more people.

 

[FungiUg]

There are some things in BDSM style relationships that adds problems and communication issues that vanilla people won't ever have to deal with.

Ah, but should they be dealing with those things?

In my opinion, BDSM just takes a normal facet of humanity, pulls it out and says "let's have fun playing with this!" To do so, yes, people in BDSM relationships generally have to talk about stuff and deal with issues that non-BDSM relationships don't have to. But that doesn't they shouldn't. There are a lot of assumptions that can go on in a non-BDSM style relationship that can be terribly wrong.

Of course, there are many many relationship styles that aren't BDSM but are also not what I would imagine a "vanilla" relationship to be. Do they have to deal with issues like this? Polyamorous? Swingers, "open" relationships? Arranged marriages (where there may not even be love in the relationship)? Just as some examples.

 

[satindesire]

Ah, but should they be dealing with those things?

I don't know. I just think that there are some things that come up SPECIFICALLY in BDSM style relationships can be hard to talk about, and hard to deal with. Not everyone is adept at communication, even though it's necessary in BDSM relationships. Well, in all relationships, but y'all know what I mean.

Power exchange is something that can be a very rough subject to handle. I'm just using that as one example. That's not something that really comes up as a 'subject of interest' in a vanilla relationship, and if one or more partners doesn't agree with the PE arrangement, and I'm just using THAT as one example...it can cause problems in that relationship that a vanilla one would never see.

I see it this way...a BDSM relationship has ALL the same problems as a vanilla relationship. PLUS all the extra stuff that BDSM brings to the table.

Like Homburg's analogy, once you start adding stuff into the mix, you have more to deal with. It's good AND it's bad, but I see BDSM relationships as harder than vanilla. And I've had both so it's not like I'm trying to talk out my ass or something.

 

[FungiUg]

when D/s encompasses your entire way of life, it can be dismally isolating.

Agreed. I don't think you need to be into BDSM to suffer that effect though.

so in the sense of having even a remotely supportive network around you, vanilla is absolutely easier

Yes and no. There are as many different people telling you to do different things in the "vanilla" world as there are people in your support network. I agree, it's good not to be isolated. But instead you have to deal with the "chinese cook" syndrome. Wins and losses there.

 

[FungiUg]

I see it this way...a BDSM relationship has ALL the same problems as a vanilla relationship. PLUS all the extra stuff that BDSM brings to the table.

I can agree to that. But then, with a "vanilla" relationship there's often the expectation that it should just work, without needing a great deal of effort. So it can be surprisingly hard.

Also, in your example of power exchange... does that really only happen in BDSM style relationships? For example, were you to look at a religous relationship (often the benchmark we think of as "vanilla") , where the man is often "the head of the household", is there no power play going on? In my opinion, it may not be stated but it's definitely there. And the fact that it's not dealt with openly brings along with it all sorts of complications that can result in misery.

I'm not saying BDSM relationships aren't hard. I agree, they are. But for me, all relationship, whatever style, are hard.

 

[Black_Bunny]

I don't believe it's "harder" (my having access to a counsellor and friends I can talk to about D/s, and having gotten used to not being free to tell my family just about anything), but rather that the 'lows' are different (as are the 'highs'). As I pondered my struggle with my emotions after the threesome, at first I thought, "this is too difficult, why am I putting myself through this, if I had a vanilla relationship this wouldn't be happening". Then I thought, if I had a vanilla relationship I would just be stressing about other things. Except the things I used to stress over in my vanilla relationship didn't enrich me - I didn't learn from the experiences, I didn't grow from them, I couldn't see the 'lows' as something that I could learn from.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Except the things I used to stress over in my vanilla relationship didn't enrich me - I didn't learn from the experiences, I didn't grow from them, I couldn't see the 'lows' as something that I could learn from.

I think that if your vanilla husband and you had dealt with polyamory, the experience would be equally enriching...

It's more a matter of what bumps are in your road, really. What car you're riding in is a separate matter.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't believe it's "harder" (my having access to a counsellor and friends I can talk to about D/s, and having gotten used to not being free to tell my family just about anything), but rather that the 'lows' are different (as are the 'highs'). As I pondered my struggle with my emotions after the threesome, at first I thought, "this is too difficult, why am I putting myself through this, if I had a vanilla relationship this wouldn't be happening". Then I thought, if I had a vanilla relationship I would just be stressing about other things. Except the things I used to stress over in my vanilla relationship didn't enrich me - I didn't learn from the experiences, I didn't grow from them, I couldn't see the 'lows' as something that I could learn from.

I'm sure that a "vanilla" person in a D/s relationship would say something similar, in reverse.

I agree with what Netzach said about outside forces. But with regard to inside forces, none of this is about flavor vs. flavor. It's about the personalities and proclivities of individuals, and whether they are well or poorly matched.

 

[HisAloneToUse]

Does it count as poly, if the two guys don't interact with one another? I don't know!

This is off topic, but to answer the question...

Absolutely. You can have two men who interact with the same woman but do not interact with one another.

Then there is what in poly terms what is called a V.

Imagine each person is a point in the V. For example, all three are hetero. The point where there is an angle let's say is a man, the two top points are women. Both women do not interect with one another, but both interact with the man.

There are many combinations in poly relationships.

 

[JMohegan]

I can agree to that. But then, with a "vanilla" relationship there's often the expectation that it should just work, without needing a great deal of effort. So it can be surprisingly hard.

Also, in your example of power exchange... does that really only happen in BDSM style relationships? For example, were you to look at a religous relationship (often the benchmark we think of as "vanilla") , where the man is often "the head of the household", is there no power play going on? In my opinion, it may not be stated but it's definitely there. And the fact that it's not dealt with openly brings along with it all sorts of complications that can result in misery.

I'm not saying BDSM relationships aren't hard. I agree, they are. But for me, all relationship, whatever style, are hard.

The only religious people I know well are Episcopalians, with whom I do community work. They're quite a progressive bunch. Don't fit the profile of crazy or bigoted Christians, discussed earlier on the thread, and don't fit your description of religious marriage.

From observation of close friends and family members, I would say that decision-making in successful non-kinky relationships functions through good-faith negotiation, and trust-based compromise. The notion that this would somehow be intrinsically easier, or naturally less enriching for the participants, or by definition involving fewer problems to be dealt with, is just nonsense.




ETA to HATU - Thanks, good to know.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I don't believe it's "harder" (my having access to a counsellor and friends I can talk to about D/s, and having gotten used to not being free to tell my family just about anything), but rather that the 'lows' are different (as are the 'highs'). As I pondered my struggle with my emotions after the threesome, at first I thought, "this is too difficult, why am I putting myself through this, if I had a vanilla relationship this wouldn't be happening". Then I thought, if I had a vanilla relationship I would just be stressing about other things. Except the things I used to stress over in my vanilla relationship didn't enrich me - I didn't learn from the experiences, I didn't grow from them, I couldn't see the 'lows' as something that I could learn from.

Wow, just taking a look at this thread again. I have a lot to say but I have to get dinner ready so I'll be back.

Quick response to this though...In both my vanilla marriage and my D/s relationship the stresses have enriched me. It has nothing to do with one being vanilla and one being D/s. It has to do with living life with two very different people, under 2 totally different circumstances. I have been married for 24 years and been in my D/s relationship for a little over 5 years. I have had plenty of highs and lows with both, I have learned and grown from them all.

Be back to add more soon.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I'm not really in the mood for hand to hand combat here. I think I'm just looking at it differently.

There are a million different aspects of what might make a relationship easier or harder than another. Having kids, so says the research! Is having kids more of a choice than wearing your collar to work?

Anyway, one component is what is public, and in that area, my original point was that it's not vanilla that's easier, it's monogamy. If your public relationships look anything other than straight and mono, then of course that is going to be more difficult than what a straight couple deals with. If I show up to a work function with my husband, no one bats an eye, regardless of whatever power exchange dynamic exists between us, which we keep private. If I show up with my husband and my girlfriend, the shit would hit the fan. In my town and profession, it would be more acceptable to show up with your same sex partner (as long as there's just one!). But whatever, all that to me seems different than D/s.

Unless I'm wearing a pet collar with spikes 24/7 and kneeling at his feet, and I do this also in public. I personally see this as more of a choice than being queer or poly, but others may disagree.

Now, the public aspect aside. I think people in successful poly relationships have done a ton of emotional work to get there, and that work is difficult. All I'm suggesting is that any person in a successful relationship is either lucky or has also done similar work to make the longterm sexual relationship succeed.

Of course it's complicated if you're in multiple relationships to balance everyone's needs, and there are all sorts of things that can come up. I'm just pointing out that the communication work doesn't end when two people decide to be monogamous, and so what's easier in some ways is more difficult in others.

You have to figure out how to satisfy all of the other person's sexual needs, for example. I'm friends with a poly couple and the husband is fond of saying, oh, she outsources (referring to his wife and blowjobs). Well, I can't outsource. I mean, I'm being semi-lighthearted here but I'm just pointing out that I don't think relationship success is any easier or harder, public pressures aside.

Thank you itw, this explains how I feel also.

Homburg I agree with you that any relationship outside of the norm will be more difficult when having to deal with people outside of the relationship. Being openly poly would be more of a challenge than being vanilla with outside interactions.

What I was referring to was the personal interactions of the people within the relationship. BDSM relationships are not harder than vanilla relationships just because they are BDSM. Look at all the divorces among vanilla couples. If it were so easy the numbers wouldn't be so high. Poly is an added complication. But so is children. So is one spouse being in the military. So is a terminal illness or a special needs child. Vanilla is not easy, not even necessarily easier as a human interaction.

Maybe because I am the one in the relationships but I can look at it as

[(ES + hubby)] "is more/less complex than" [(ES + Daddy)]

In many ways they are very separate relationships. It is not complexity we are talking about. It is how hard something is. Both relationships are equally difficult or easy but for very different reasons.

This:
[(ES + hubby) + (ES + Daddy)] "is more/less complex than" [(ES + hubby)]

Of course it is more complex, but not harder. Not for me. Also not for hubby. After almost five years Hubby finally met Daddy in person earlier this spring. They had talked on Facebook a bit about sports but that was about it. I was a nervous wreck about them meeting but it was so much much fun and they got along beautifully. It was quite entertaining actually. My husband is a very special man. He is so self assured and confident in my love for him that my D/s relationship doesn't faze him in the least. There is no jealousy or ego issues. He is not submissive, nor is he into being a cuckold in the usual way it is portrayed (though he is by definition). I openly talk about Daddy with Hubby and vis versa. At this point they only hard part is that I still live too far from Daddy to see him as much as I would like. Hubby does try to help with this as much as possible.

 

[BiBunny]

I agree with Homburg. Anybody who thinks vanilla is harder should walk a mile in my shoes.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I agree with Homburg. Anybody who thinks vanilla is harder should walk a mile in my shoes.

But is your relationship hard because it is poly, because it is power exchange based or because of the personalities of the people involved?

No vanilla relationship is pure vanilla. Meaning just about every relationship has some issues going on. Seriously, I don't think a mile in your shoes is any more difficult than many of the miles I have walked in mine.

 

[Black_Bunny]

Just my experience, my vanilla marriage did not enrich me. There was no room to grow, no space to try anything new, no boundaries being pushed. Perhaps it's more to do with the person I was with rather than the fact that it was vanilla, yes, but it's what I have to go on. He couldn't take leadership and make decisions like I needed him to. This, amongst other things, caused a huge amount of stress that had no positives whatsoever.

Australia is an extremely open-minded, laidback country. Yeah ok, we haven't legalized gay marriage, but a gay couple could kiss in public and no-one would blink an eyelid. You could probably walk your slave down the street on all fours with a leash and no-one would care. So I think whether it's "harder" or not has more to do with the area you live in, then the person(s) you are with.

 

[Netzach]

Just my experience, my vanilla marriage did not enrich me. There was no room to grow, no space to try anything new, no boundaries being pushed. Perhaps it's more to do with the person I was with rather than the fact that it was vanilla, yes, but it's what I have to go on. He couldn't take leadership and make decisions like I needed him to. This, amongst other things, caused a huge amount of stress that had no positives whatsoever.

I'd argue it had everything to do with who you were with - and the fact that the stressors were so bad isn't hardship?

My vanilla relationship was much harder than my kinked relationships because I very much loved and was compatible with my partner in every other sense. The conflict was killing us. I've been through hellish things with M, but nothing that I don't feel we can get through.

None of those hellish things have to do with kink, btw, either. Kink and powerplay are how I deal with stressors - they make relationships bearable and cathartic and less confusing.

 

[JMohegan]

Just my experience, my vanilla marriage did not enrich me. There was no room to grow, no space to try anything new, no boundaries being pushed. Perhaps it's more to do with the person I was with rather than the fact that it was vanilla, yes, but it's what I have to go on. He couldn't take leadership and make decisions like I needed him to. This, amongst other things, caused a huge amount of stress that had no positives whatsoever.

The only way this is commentary on "vanilla" is if every woman on earth shares your need to have a man "take leadership and make decisions," and every man is best placed in an authoritative role in a relationship.

If you have any inkling at all that maybe, just maybe, some people have needs and preferences that differ from yours, then you'll realize that what didn't work for you might work spectacularly well for someone else.