Penetration

[CutieMouse]

[kinky nerd alert]

I'm reading this interesting book (linked in my sig) by Peter Masters right now; the easiest thing I can half-assedly describe it as is BDSM from a anthropological/sociological/Jungian point of view. I know not everyone is interested in the biological and psychological impact of power based relationships, but a girl's gotta keep her mind occupied between lovers somehow, right?

Anyway -

I don't know if it would actually even be an interesting topic or what direction it could go in, but I read an interesting chapter this evening on penetration. The most obvious thing one might think of when one hears the word "penetration" in a BDSM sort of way, is fucking - PYL fucks pyl (duh); however, the OED definition of penetration includes the follow entries-

*To get into or through, fain entrance or access to, especially with force, effort or difficulty
*To bring light into or to see through
*To pierce
*To have or get intellectual or spiritual access, insight or knowledge
*To find out, discover, discern
*To affect or influence deeply
*To touch the heart or feelings of
*To cause to hear or take notice
*To be fully understood or appreciated

Like I said - I'm not sure exactly what direction the discussion could take, but it was interesting to me... because if one utilized an expanded definition of the word [penetration], it sort of minimizes of the limitations of looking at BDSM as PYL fucks pyl... (although that's still awfully yummy)

[/kinky nerd alert]

 

[Scotsman69]

Glad to see that someone across the pond recognises the definitive English dictionary...

 

[BertrandRussell]

Doesn't every writer have one? At least the 13 volume set, if not the 16 volume set?

 

[chy_girl]

*snip*

*To get into or through, fain entrance or access to, especially with force, effort or difficulty
*To bring light into or to see through
*To pierce
*To have or get intellectual or spiritual access, insight or knowledge
*To find out, discover, discern
*To affect or influence deeply
*To touch the heart or feelings of
*To cause to hear or take notice
*To be fully understood or appreciated

*snip*

Thank you. That is so incredibly applicable at the moment. And as soon as I get the very large flock of ducks flapping around in my head to settle down I'd love to discuss it more in depth.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

So, it really does come back to bdsm being about more than just sex.

Heh.

Really though, to me, it's always been about that emotional penetration, the peeling back of layers, the exposure, the vulnerability and the effect that has on the both of us.

 

[Scotsman69]

I agree with LB on this point. It's why BDSM in a deeply loving relationship completes both of us.

 

[Claire73]

I agree with LB on this point. It's why BDSM in a deeply loving relationship completes both of us.

~smiles~
Yes, and that's why casual BDSM should be avoided...there can be no true penetration in casual BDSM!!








I kid, I kid

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

~smiles~
Yes, and that's why casual BDSM should be avoided...there can be no true penetration in casual BDSM!!


I kid, I kid

I thought casual bdsm was all penetration and no capital L love?

 

[Claire73]

I thought casual bdsm was all penetration and no capital L love?

Hmmm...maybe I should've listened better to the wise words of the bearded man...

 

[Seurat]

Like I said - I'm not sure exactly what direction the discussion could take, but it was interesting to me... because if one utilized an expanded definition of the word [penetration], it sort of minimizes of the limitations of looking at BDSM as PYL fucks pyl

You hurt my brain so early in the morning. But now I have something to occupy free time today.

 

[Primalex]

Like I said - I'm not sure exactly what direction the discussion could take, but it was interesting to me... because if one utilized an expanded definition of the word [penetration], it sort of minimizes of the limitations of looking at BDSM as PYL fucks pyl...

I think this is a good example of correlation versus causality.

With a decrease in the number of pirates, there has been an increase in global warming over the same period. Therefore, global warming is caused by a lack of pirates.

You can expand penetration as much as you want (pun intended), but in the end, any "matches" are just correlation.

(Despite this, you need to get laid again, BDSM was never "PYL fucks pyl".)

 

[lustatopia]

That's interesting. I'm a student of Carl Jung's work. Perhaps you should also take a look at Joseph Campbell, "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and most especially Frazer's "Golden Bough."

From a mythopoeia perspective one could write a monograph on "penetration." Heh, no doubt it has been done. Just off the top of my head:

The idea of penetration is similar to the hero's journey. Separation, initiation and return. The vagina being the passage way guarded by dragons through which one must past to find enlightenment. Penetration into this underworld always involves trials and death. (orgasm = death) The return, if possible, is always a Lazarus-like miracle. This is the most fundamental story line in the world.

It's also the path of the shaman who must allow himself to be pierced, physically and spiritually risking death to be born again, return from the dead to the living world with a kind of healing wisdom that can only be known by those who have risked total disintegration.

Penetration is always a yin and yang. The male force that penetrates is in turn swallowed, consumed by the vagina. In mythology the Great Mother is always the dominant force over the father. The void is greater than phallus. Just as the night sky is greater than all the stars combined.

In the ancient myth of Osiris and his wife Isis we see that the hero's journey the cycle of penetration into the underworld void and return is a mirror image of the cycle of the seasons. This theme is repeated through out history over and over again in every culture.

One can imagine how booooring I am at cocktail parties.

 

[Primalex]

One can imagine how booooring I am at cocktail parties.

~qp~'s second corollary to MacGyver's law:

"Everything in life can be fixed with a ball gag."

 

[Scotsman69]

Careful Claire73. I have a beard...

But I think 'casual' BDSM has its place in the scheme of things. But nothing in the world matches the transcendence of a deeply loving BDSM relationship.

 

[CutieMouse]

I think this is a good example of correlation versus causality.

With a decrease in the number of pirates, there has been an increase in global warming over the same period. Therefore, global warming is caused by a lack of pirates.

You can expand penetration as much as you want (pun intended), but in the end, any "matches" are just correlation.

(Despite this, you need to get laid again, BDSM was never "PYL fucks pyl".)

I wasn't necessarily percolating on it in such dry, logical terms.

Lord knows hard brutal sex is pretty dammed yummy, but [pyl perspective] one can be just as easily "penetrated" by a single word. One can be "penetrated" through an act of service. One can be "penetrated" by allowing one's core self to be 'seen' and acknowledged by a lover (friend, confidant, etc).

The thing that gave me pause (and got the mouse brain churning), was the concept that said penetration is not limited to the pyl. The PYL experiences as much exposure, vulnerability, opening up, etc. Aaand I'm still sussing out that train of thought, but just saw the clock and have to leave for work. (Stupid reality.)

(Aside - yes, you're right, I do need to get laid. Badly. However, I'm afraid there don't seem to be any suitable prospects within at least 1,000 miles. Again - stupid reality.)

That's interesting. I'm a student of Carl Jung's work. Perhaps you should also take a look at Joseph Campbell, "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and most especially Frazer's "Golden Bough."

From a mythopoeia perspective one could write a monograph on "penetration." Heh, no doubt it has been done. Just off the top of my head:

The idea of penetration is similar to the hero's journey. Separation, initiation and return. The vagina being the passage way guarded by dragons through which one must past to find enlightenment. Penetration into this underworld always involves trials and death. (orgasm = death) The return, if possible, is always a Lazarus-like miracle. This is the most fundamental story line in the world.

It's also the path of the shaman who must allow himself to be pierced, physically and spiritually risking death to be born again, return from the dead to the living world with a kind of healing wisdom that can only be known by those who have risked total disintegration.

Penetration is always a yin and yang. The male force that penetrates is in turn swallowed, consumed by the vagina. In mythology the Great Mother is always the dominant force over the father. The void is greater than phallus. Just as the night sky is greater than all the stars combined.

In the ancient myth of Osiris and his wife Isis we see that the hero's journey the cycle of penetration into the underworld void and return is a mirror image of the cycle of the seasons. This theme is repeated through out history over and over again in every culture.

One can imagine how booooring I am at cocktail parties.

Thaaaat's where one little corner of my brain was going... except extending beyond basic sex, into penetration as part of the relationship dynamic, and how that penetration impacts both PYL and pyl - because as I mentioned above, PYLs expose themselves to penetration as well, we just don't discuss it much.

Oh and if you're boring at cocktail parties, so am I. Exceedingly so.

 

[eastern sun]

CutieMouse, the idea of penetration (as you're defining it) is absolutely central to my sexual desires. And I have spent most of my life trying to figure out just how this membrane of "self" is constructed or upheld to allow for such delicious intrusions.

 

[Primalex]

The thing that gave me pause (and got the mouse brain churning), was the concept that said penetration is not limited to the pyl. The PYL experiences as much exposure, vulnerability, opening up, etc.

I have to disagree here again. The exposure, vulnerability etc. is a result of a (longer) relationship, not of the BDSM activity. The exposure of "private properties" like "abnormal sexual preferences" or "extreme emotional incidents of the past" require foremost time and trust - not a whip. Of course, the whip again requires time and trust. Therefore, if you trust someone enough to give him your body, chances are good that you trust him enough to open up. BDSM itself does not cause this though.

Or to rephrase it:
There is no less penetration in a vanilla relationship. The amount of penetration is a matter of the personalities involved.

Regarding the PYL penetration - it does not compute for me. Of course, over time, my pyl will discover more and more of my traits, strengths and weaknesses. But penetration is always "passing an obstacle", even in all your definitions, just the kind of obstacle changes. It's not "knowledge by observation" or "consensual discovery". If a pyl "penetrates" the PYL, then it would mean that she was able to pass a mental/emotional/whatever obstacle and gain something, she wasn't supposed to. This is not acceptable for me.

 

[Seurat]

If a pyl "penetrates" the PYL, then it would mean that she was able to pass a mental/emotional/whatever obstacle and gain something, she wasn't supposed to. This is not acceptable for me.

Hmmm. If pyl does something, when not under direct observation, that causes a reaction (i.e., she slips a finger in your rear during oral sex, or he serves iceberg before dinner instead of romaine) and it is something that garners a reaction of any sort, than wouldn't that be considered a penetration of the defenses? I could see if you had utter and total command of all actions, but how is a sub supposed to define unknown boundaries without some probing, even if it is only through questioning?

And anything done which creates an adverse reaction, I think, would be considered a penetration, especially if the reaction is repeated (intentionally or not) so as to confirm. (Well, that's twice now she has had me wear the butt plug for a day. No more iceberg, ever again. Not even in tacos.)

 

[Netzach]

I find my experiences on the top to be *much* more edgy, vulnerability inducing, heart in mouth, I-can't-believe-I-just-did-that than the ones I have had on the bottom, when it comes to intimate romantic relationships. This was kind of a revelation to me, in that it was like "ok, here's where the lifeblood is for me, clearly."

Nothing gets me as naked and fearful and excited as T or M trussed up and ready to let me do things to them. I'm OK with my desires to do that with H because the relationship is predicated on that, but when it's romantic it *still* scares the shit out of me, and that's what makes it completely addictive. I've got him, now what? And it's all my show. Shit.

 

[Primalex]

Hmmm. If pyl does something, when not under direct observation, that causes a reaction (i.e., she slips a finger in your rear during oral sex, or he serves iceberg before dinner instead of romaine) and it is something that garners a reaction of any sort, than wouldn't that be considered a penetration of the defenses?

I guess somewhere is a thin line between probing and penetrating, yes. For example, my pyl tried the prostrate massage, too, after all she read about it, too, and how pleasant it is and it is her job to please me. Now I doubt that any pyl out there just thrusts the finger in the ass - this would be penetration for sure then. But when there is enough time to figure out her intentions and say "Don't", then it's just probing. Penetration would happen if she continued and I would give in. So trying to slip a finger in s.o.'s rear can be probing or penetrating - it's not defined by what you do but by how you do it.

I could see if you had utter and total command of all actions, but how is a sub supposed to define unknown boundaries without some probing, even if it is only through questioning?

Is a pyl supposed to define the boundaries of a PYL at all?

Despite this
Probing: detecting obstacles (or the lack of them)
Penetrating: getting past the obstacles

In my world these two issues are sufficiently distinct.

 

[JMohegan]

[kinky nerd alert]

I'm reading this interesting book (linked in my sig) by Peter Masters right now; the easiest thing I can half-assedly describe it as is BDSM from a anthropological/sociological/Jungian point of view. I know not everyone is interested in the biological and psychological impact of power based relationships, but a girl's gotta keep her mind occupied between lovers somehow, right?

Anyway -

I don't know if it would actually even be an interesting topic or what direction it could go in, but I read an interesting chapter this evening on penetration. The most obvious thing one might think of when one hears the word "penetration" in a BDSM sort of way, is fucking - PYL fucks pyl (duh); however, the OED definition of penetration includes the follow entries-

*To get into or through, fain entrance or access to, especially with force, effort or difficulty
*To bring light into or to see through
*To pierce
*To have or get intellectual or spiritual access, insight or knowledge
*To find out, discover, discern
*To affect or influence deeply
*To touch the heart or feelings of
*To cause to hear or take notice
*To be fully understood or appreciated

Like I said - I'm not sure exactly what direction the discussion could take, but it was interesting to me... because if one utilized an expanded definition of the word [penetration], it sort of minimizes of the limitations of looking at BDSM as PYL fucks pyl... (although that's still awfully yummy)

[/kinky nerd alert]

Penetration is a form of conquest, whether you're talking about sports or sex or war.

And no, I don't care what the OED says. All that touchy feely stuff has got to go!

 

[rosco rathbone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtxlDb9N6aE

 

[callinectes2]

With a decrease in the number of pirates, there has been an increase in global warming over the same period. Therefore, global warming is caused by a lack of pirates.

Dude, the the Noodley one demands credit for your statistic.

with apologies to CM for the sidebar, I now return you to your topic which is far too deep for me at the moment.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

[kinky nerd alert]

I'm reading this interesting book (linked in my sig) by Peter Masters right now; the easiest thing I can half-assedly describe it as is BDSM from a anthropological/sociological/Jungian point of view. I know not everyone is interested in the biological and psychological impact of power based relationships, but a girl's gotta keep her mind occupied between lovers somehow, right?
<snip>
*To get into or through, fain entrance or access to, especially with force, effort or difficulty
*To bring light into or to see through
*To pierce
*To have or get intellectual or spiritual access, insight or knowledge
*To find out, discover, discern
*To affect or influence deeply
*To touch the heart or feelings of
*To cause to hear or take notice
*To be fully understood or appreciated

<snip>
Thaaaat's where one little corner of my brain was going... except extending beyond basic sex, into penetration as part of the relationship dynamic, and how that penetration impacts both PYL and pyl - because as I mentioned above, PYLs expose themselves to penetration as well, we just don't discuss it much.

First of all, I want to read this book. It sounds fascinating.

But you wouldn't know it from the cover, which is an abomination unto the Lord. Good god. Those stupid cartoon bible pamphlets that some jerk is always leaving in the men's room are more visually appealing.

Oh man. I love when I'm testing out a trail and stumble into a thicket and find myself in The Land of the Lost. Occasionally, I probe somewhere and find something so meaningful or symbolic that her surprise tells me that I've penetrated some kind of defenses. I like that. Perhaps it's partly because I have sadistic tendencies, and like knowing where those holes in the defense are. But also because I just like knowing; it's clear that it's virgin emotional ground, and that is an intoxicating place to stand.

I'm not going to address the PYL-is-penetrated-too stuff because that would mean opening myself up further and that is simply unacceptable, dammit.

 

[midwestyankee]

As JM pointed out, one could also substitute the word "possession" and reach similar conclusions as with "penetration." In fact, I like to think of bdsm as a specialized form of possession of another. After all, we also regularly use words like "own" and "owner" in this context. And in the sexual realm (whether bdsm or not), we use "take" to mean grab possession of for sexual gratification.

The happy face made a mostly valid point as well: that much of what we see as the power in a bdsm relationship can be found in deep relationships that include no bdsm. That said, the whip and the chain and the gag both penetrate and put forceful immediate claims of possession into play, no?

And it's 931.07, but who's counting?