Swedish court considers sadomasochism case

[seela]

Swedish court considers sadomasochism case

A Swedish court is to consider the issue of how much sexual violence is legally permitted between two consenting partners in a case involving a 32-year-old man who came into contact with his 16-year-old sex partner via a sex website.

The teenager, on the instructions of the 32-year-old man, penned a letter declaring that she wanted to be "used, abused and thoroughly humiliated". When the pair met the girl was, among other things, locked into a cage and had clamps attached to her breasts, according to a TV4 Malmö news programme.

Police became involved after a relative of the girl noticed the bruises all over her body.

The prosecutor, Ulrika Rogland, has ruled out rape as the parties are accepted to have consented to their sexual liaison. But the court is set to rule on the issue of where the legal limits lie with regards to violence inflicted on another human being, even if they agree to it.

"What I want to establish is that even if they say they are in agreement over this then you not allowed to seriously assault someone. It is on this issue that the district court has to issue a ruling, is this aggravated assault and was she able to agree to it?" Rogland said to the local Sydsvenskan daily.

The man's lawyer has expressed surprise over the charges and an expert on sadomasochism is set to testify at the trial.

The issue has never before been considered in a Swedish court, according to Lena Holmqvist, an expert in criminal law at Uppsala University.

"Now we will really get the issue tried - to what extent can consent preclude the need for violent sex," she said.

Thoughts on this?

ETA: The age of consent in Sweden is 15.

 

[Noor]

The courts should stay out of bedrooms, they can raise the age of consent if they are concerned about the age difference.

 

[seela]

In this case they're pondering how much is too much sadomasochism. The age difference isn't at least the official reason for this.

 

[Netzach]

Can a 16 year old place a bet, drink, or participate in contact sports without parental consent?

I think SM and contact sports are actually the closest things, not SM and sex, legally, if we're being rational about it. Introduce sexual gratification and now, it's suddenly different when you consent to violence and risk?

 

[seela]

Can a 16 year old place a bet, drink, or participate in contact sports without parental consent?

I think SM and contact sports are actually the closest things, not SM and sex, legally, if we're being rational about it. Introduce sexual gratification and now, it's suddenly different when you consent to violence and risk?

I think the bolded bit is a very good point. I don't see much difference between boxing and heavy SM play. Why does arousal make it different and more harmful, then? Especially when the age of consent in Sweden is 15.

I'm not familiar with the Swedish law, but it'd be interesting to hear their input if there is somebody from Sweden here.

 

[JMohegan]

When the activity takes place behind closed doors, and involves things that a lot of people can't imagine craving or even tolerating (on the giving OR receiving end), then I suspect that what's really going on is that the quality or nature of the consent is being called into question. The presumption being that consent to SM, beyond a certain level, could only be given by someone who had been coerced, traumatized, under the influence of self-destructive tendencies, or whatever. Therefore the activity is presumed to take place without legitimate consent.

Not in the sense that it would be rape to take advantage of a female who's passed out drunk, but in the sense that it would be murder to shoot a guy straight through the head simply because he asked you to do so.

 

[BLoved]

But the court is set to rule on the issue of where the legal limits lie with regards to violence inflicted on another human being, even if they agree to it.

Thoughts on this?

Ignoring the issue of age, the following thoughts came to mind regarding the quoted question:

1. Boxing
2. Football
3. Rugby
4. Hockey

 

[Epmd607]

See, everyone here and the court system is running with BDSM equals sex. Every BDSM act is inherently sexual.

 

[Claire73]

In my country, even if a grown woman is in a non consented abusive relationship, but doesn't want to say so to the police, then nothing will be done about it.

So in my mind, this is ONLY about her age.


Maybe Sweden should consider the age thing if they feel uncomfortable when their 15 year old girls like to be in a BDSM relationship with men twice their age.

 

[josephs_slave]

I was wondering about this very topic the other day. I think in these relationships we trust our partner not to leave lasting damage. If a partner violates ur trust then its a relationship issue not a legal one...

However...if an agreed upon safe word was called and ignored then is that rape or the loss if consent? I think so

 

[Netzach]

See, everyone here and the court system is running with BDSM equals sex. Every BDSM act is inherently sexual.

Right, but it's not the orgasms I might have that make a beating risky.

 

[sb2009]

I have read a few people's posts on Fetlife that talk about how they felt like "do gooders" were making thier lives miserable due to calling the police, authorities, etc about them.

One time I think the person had an injury resulting in an ER visit and told the nurse her PYL had done it, so the nurse (as required most places in the US) had to report it to police. She said she was used as a hostile witness in the assault trial against her PYL.

If the person in the Switzerland case is of age, was she required to show her bruises to the police, or is she still considered a minor and it's her parents choice? It's confusing to me how a case can be brought based on hearsay - at some point the girl must have told the police who left the bruises and they must have been examined, etc. Which makes me want to say that people should perhaps know thier rights under the law before they mess around.

 

[Xelebes]

The courts should stay out of bedrooms, they can raise the age of consent if they are concerned about the age difference.

The courts can't do that in Sweden - with it being Civil Law there and all.

 

[Homburg]

Can a 16 year old place a bet, drink, or participate in contact sports without parental consent?

I think SM and contact sports are actually the closest things, not SM and sex, legally, if we're being rational about it. Introduce sexual gratification and now, it's suddenly different when you consent to violence and risk?

This is my basic attitude. If I can consent to climb into a chain-link box for a cage match where I and another grown man will try our level best to beat the snot out of each other, I see no problem with consenting adults slapping each other around in the bedroom.

But I am perhaps a wee bit biased...

 

[Netzach]

This is my basic attitude. If I can consent to climb into a chain-link box for a cage match where I and another grown man will try our level best to beat the snot out of each other, I see no problem with consenting adults slapping each other around in the bedroom.

But I am perhaps a wee bit biased...

Right. If someone caresses your balls it's suddenly illegal via the spanner ruling.

 

[Black_Bunny]

It's confusing to me how a case can be brought based on hearsay - at some point the girl must have told the police who left the bruises and they must have been examined, etc.

I agree, the only way other people know about what goes on in their bedroom is if she tells them. Either people should shut up when she tells them its consensual, or the man crossed the line and caused bruises when that wasn't part of the plan, in which case it's partly her fault for being too young and stupid to do such things with someone she couldn't trust. In any case the courts have no business with it, in my opinion. Is she suing him? Or are the courts just being nosy?

 

[seela]

I agree, the only way other people know about what goes on in their bedroom is if she tells them. Either people should shut up when she tells them its consensual, or the man crossed the line and caused bruises when that wasn't part of the plan, in which case it's partly her fault for being too young and stupid to do such things with someone she couldn't trust. In any case the courts have no business with it, in my opinion. Is she suing him? Or are the courts just being nosy?

It says in the article that a relative saw the bruises and reported them to police. I don't know about Sweden, but the legistlation in general is there quite similar to what we have here and here an assault is under public prosecution, so police would look into it even if the girl didn't want to charge.

The situation gets complicated, because a 16 year old is well over the age of consent (which is 15), but is still a minor (the age of majority is 18). So I guess the parents could charge the guy for her even if she doesn't want. I'm not sure, but that would be my guess.

 

[chy_girl]

I can't help but wonder if 16 years old is mature enough - physically or emotionally - to knowingly and intelligently consent to BDSM?

 

[shamegirl]

I can't help but wonder if 16 years old is mature enough - physically or emotionally - to knowingly and intelligently consent to BDSM?

I think it depends on the person. Some 16 year olds are mature, others aren't.
It's a weird situation. In the UK the age of consent is 16 but a lot of kids, myself included are "sexually active" below that age with one another. I always thought the point of this law was to protect against statutory rape for example 15 year old girl 18 year old boy, if they're in a relationship and he has her do something she doesn't want she has some recourse.
I find the age gap disturbing. But if that's what the law allows then I would have thought there's not a lot they can do? They either need to up the age of consent to whatever they feel is appropriate for someone to allow themselves to be "abused" or they need to classify BDSM as something other than a sexual activity.

 

[PhaonsBrother]

It's not about consent to sex, it's about consent to abuse. It's pretty standard, assuming someone's mentally unstable and needs help if they're seeking abuse, violence against their person. Maybe in this case this girl would do well in an outpatient treatment program. How mature were you at 16, 20, even 25? Who could handle a serious Dom at the age of 20? I don't think anyone's mature enough to practice BDSM at 16. As we saw with an earlier thread, it's next to impossible pulling sexuality out of BDSM. That would just make it look worse, if it's not about sexual gratification: "Sven, this girl isn't even getting off, she's just submitting to violence."

 

[fuckmeat]

Can a 16 year old place a bet, drink, or participate in contact sports without parental consent?

I think SM and contact sports are actually the closest things, not SM and sex, legally, if we're being rational about it. Introduce sexual gratification and now, it's suddenly different when you consent to violence and risk?

I think the concern is that throwing sexual gratification into the mix can impair judgement in a way that I doubt you'd see on a hockey pitch. There's also more risk of people getting carried away in the heat of the moment and doing something seriously dangerous or regrettable.

I don't know. I think you need real emotional maturity to engage in BDSM safely and sanely. If I had tried some of the things I enjoy now at the age of 15 or 16, I think I'd be a very different adult now and not in a good way. Besides, where's the fun in being totally sexually jaded before you're even 18?

I think that if anything, the guy who consented to play with her at that age should be gelded with a rusty spoon. That'd serve society better than anything else.

 

[seela]

I started with BDSM pretty young, because from early on I felt like it was what I like and what I need sexually. I'm still not exactly old, but I've grown up ok, healthy and stable, despite the fact that BDSM has been a key element to my sex life from the very beginning. I never understood why you should first have "normal" sex even if it's unsatisfying to you before you move on to the stuff that you really like. Starting with BDSM doesn't mean that you have to introduce knives and breath play the first time you have sex. So yes, I'm probably more than biased on this, but I find this case interesting, nevertheless. If for nothing else, then for the fact that the Swedish legal system is pretty similar to ours here and it'll serve as a precedent.

I've browsed the Swedish newspaper about the issue and the question they're really talking about now is not the age, but what are things a person can consent to. It's about violence, and if only looked from that point of view I can't see any clear difference between boxing and BDSM. Both are risky. The Swedish Association for Sexuality Education is quite strongly against prosecuting the man. I watched a news clip about the case and the prosecutor said that when practicing BDSM one "shouldn't hit very hard and not very long".

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Besides, where's the fun in being totally sexually jaded before you're even 18?

Win.

I dig the still feeling a bit like a virgin sometimes thing. That little thrill and excitement is so hot.

 

[intothewoods]

I think the concern is that throwing sexual gratification into the mix can impair judgement in a way that I doubt you'd see on a hockey pitch. There's also more risk of people getting carried away in the heat of the moment and doing something seriously dangerous or regrettable.

I don't know. I think you need real emotional maturity to engage in BDSM safely and sanely. If I had tried some of the things I enjoy now at the age of 15 or 16, I think I'd be a very different adult now and not in a good way. Besides, where's the fun in being totally sexually jaded before you're even 18?

I think that if anything, the guy who consented to play with her at that age should be gelded with a rusty spoon. That'd serve society better than anything else.

Yeah, this is my thought too. I feel more comfortable with the age of consent being 18, though I agree that both numbers are somewhat arbitrary. I doubt the quality of consent by a 16 year old. On the other hand, I don't think it's the best use of government funds and time to be going after this guy. If the 16 year old has been interviewed by a psychologist and appears emotionally healthy, I don't think there's much to be gained here.

 

[Netzach]

I think the concern is that throwing sexual gratification into the mix can impair judgement in a way that I doubt you'd see on a hockey pitch. There's also more risk of people getting carried away in the heat of the moment and doing something seriously dangerous or regrettable.

I don't know. I think you need real emotional maturity to engage in BDSM safely and sanely. If I had tried some of the things I enjoy now at the age of 15 or 16, I think I'd be a very different adult now and not in a good way. Besides, where's the fun in being totally sexually jaded before you're even 18?

I think that if anything, the guy who consented to play with her at that age should be gelded with a rusty spoon. That'd serve society better than anything else.

OK, I guess. That's treating sex as an altered state. If that's the case you should not be able to drive or work while lust-filled - or wearing a buttplug because your Master told you to, for that matter.

What if he was her 18 yo bf? That's the part that's tweaking me a bit, I think. Not the idea of a 16 yo getting some rough sex marks - just not from someone my age, egad.