What is D/s, M/s and BDSM?

[Zachariah_Cane]

Deleted

 

[infinity706]

D/s is Dominant/Submissive. M/s is Master/Slave. There's also Top/Bottom as well as many other labels. The big letter is the party in charge to an extent. The usual terminology here is Pyl/pyl meaning pick your label.

Now, as for the specifics of a relationship, it's as varied as vanilla relationships.

 

[Claire73]

I don't think D/s is different from a regular vanilla relationship, it's just the other end of the same scale, and M/s is even further up that same scale.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Also, of all the lifestyles I have researched, the D/s, M/s and BDSM lifestyle harbors more anger and hostility than any other.

Please do tell.

 

[Kikori]

"Hostility", I can understand if and only if "hostility" is replaced with the aggression, dominance, and/or sadistic behavior of the Dom(me)s in bed. To someone uneducated looking from the outside in, after all, whipping and the like would certainly appear hostile.

The reason there are 100 different responses to this question is, ten times out of ten, the personality, preferences, kinks, fetishes, and delights of a Dom(me) will be different. Just as often, the same is true of the Submissive. No two people are the same, so why should how they practice sex be? Because the label is "BDSM" for that they do? Nah.

There's enough variety on what can be done in bed that you'll be hard pressed to find two D/s relationships exactly alike. The makeup of it may be very similar, and the actions performed by both may be the same on paper, but when you're dealing with people, it's going to be pretty hard to find an answer that spans out over everyone.

Also.

Each individual, (or couple), seems to have their own personal definition of what this lifestyle should or should not be.

That line is probably the only in your post that could make anyone angry or defensive. I don't think any serious regular here thinks how they practice BDSM is how it "should" be done. Instead, it's simply how they prefer.

 

[seela]

Also, of all the lifestyles I have researched, the D/s, M/s and BDSM lifestyle harbors more anger and hostility than any other.

You don't say. You've been so polite and kind in your previous exchanges on this board.

And to answer to your questions:

1) Okey-dokey
2) I'm done
3) Thanks

 

[Zachariah_Cane]

Deleted

 

[seela]

Your answers to my three questions would fit almost any relationship, even vanilla. What would denote your relationship as M/s or D/s, as opposed to any other relationship?

I honestly don't know what answers you are waiting for to get. In my experience most people interact with their partners in a very normal and casual manner even if they are in some sort of a BDSM inspired relationship. Some people add sirs or masters here and there, but all in all the interactions don't seem to be all that different from any other relationship.

What denotes my relationship as non-vanilla is the fact that he calls the shots be it in bedroom or outside of it. No micromanaging. I can imagine that getting really tedious really fast, to all parties involved.

 

[CutieMouse]

Scenario: A male Master or Dom has a pile of disorganized research papers on his desk, and assigns to his female submissive, (by asking or ordering), the task of organizing, categorizing and filing these papers.

Questions:
1. From this point, how does the female submissive proceed?
2. Also, once she has completed the task, (or not completed the task, whichever the case may be), how does she then approach her Master or Dom?
3. Also, once the female sub has completed or not completed the task, how does the Master or Dom respond?

Note: The importance of the task is not relevant to the answer; I am looking for the relational dynamics of this lifestyle.

The scenario presented somewhat presumes the submissive in question is service oriented - I would like to point out that one can be submissive without an interest in service (based on conversations with various PYL types over the years, I would actually pose the argument that "service oriented submissives" are actually a rather are breed).

I will tweak the example a bit to a current situation [for me]. My last lover and I recently decided to take a step back and take some space; we continue to be friends and still care about one another. He's currently somewhat ill; I have offered to bring him dinner/tidy the house/check on him, but he's declined [along with withdrawing so as to not be a bother].

We had a conversation yesterday in which he expressed his desire to not be a bother, and I explained that catering to people I care about is simply how I operate. To deny the opportunity to serve someone I care about *for me* screws with my "core self" (his words - we often discuss things in terms of evolutionary biology/biochemical response). Fascinating conversation, really...

Everything in me wants to drop by with dinner, make sure his bed is fresh, lecture him to rest, and leave 10 minutes after I arrived to not exhaust him, but *to him* it would be rude to allow it (because it's an hour drive). So I won't.

In a twisted way, I am submitting to and serving him, by not submitting to or serving him. Ina "vanilla" relationship (greatly dislike that term, BTW), a situation like this might be more of a "leaving him alone because he wants it" sort of thing; IMO it's the mentality that makes all the difference.

 

[Netzach]

of all the lifestyles and relationships I have researched, this by far has been the most ambiguous and difficult to understand

I'll defer on the question as I'd hate to confuse your data. However - this strikes me.

I'm finding that interesting. I don't think there's any more or less commonality among SM people than among naturists, knitters, or fly fisherman. If you're expecting uniformity or trying to stuff everything into your personal kink template, expect to find it incomprehensible.

If you expect people's desires to be diverse there's no giant mystery to it.

 

[Claire73]

I'll defer on the question as I'd hate to confuse your data. However - this strikes me.

I'm finding that interesting. I don't think there's any more or less commonality among SM people than among naturists, knitters, or fly fisherman. If you're expecting uniformity or trying to stuff everything into your personal kink template, expect to find it incomprehensible.

If you expect people's desires to be diverse there's no giant mystery to it.

Knitters.... you mean that angry and hostile bunch of people who like to work with wool, right?

 

[SirLeo]

I don't think D/s is different from a regular vanilla relationship, it's just the other end of the same scale, and M/s is even further up that same scale.

I completely agree, or completely agree. (waiting for an English major to opine and which is the more correct usage )

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Questions:
1. From this point, how does the female submissive proceed?
2. Also, once she has completed the task, (or not completed the task, whichever the case may be), how does she then approach her Master or Dom?
3. Also, once the female sub has completed or not completed the task, how does the Master or Dom respond?

1. I get stuck in and get it done. And I enjoy it.
2. I just say 'hey, I'm all done now'
3. He says 'thank you'

 

[BLoved]

In an attempt to understand this lifestyle, I sometimes pose this question in discussions regarding D/s, M/s and BDSM relationships:

Scenario: A male Master or Dom has a pile of disorganized research papers on his desk, and assigns to his female submissive, (by asking or ordering), the task of organizing, categorizing and filing these papers.

Questions:
1. From this point, how does the female submissive proceed?
2. Also, once she has completed the task, (or not completed the task, whichever the case may be), how does she then approach her Master or Dom?
3. Also, once the female sub has completed or not completed the task, how does the Master or Dom respond?

I practice what I call a "love-based" bdsm. That means that at the heart of the relationship is love and a committment to sharing life together.

1. From this point, how does the female submissive proceed?

First, if my beloved had a more pressing priority, she would remind me and ask me how to proceed. From this discussion the task would be scheduled in wherever appropriate.

If there was no more pressing priority, she would perform the task.

2. Also, once she has completed the task, (or not completed the task, whichever the case may be), how does she then approach her Master or Dom?

If I'd instructed her to let me know when the task is complete, she would inform me. If not, she would move on to the next task (tho' if I am nearby she would likely volunteer the information that the task is complete).

If she had no other task to perform, she would come to me and we would discuss what to do next. That may involve suggestions from her, surprises I've planned to delight her, free time to indulge her hobbies and interests, etc.

3. Also, once the female sub has completed or not completed the task, how does the Master or Dom respond?

With love.

If the task is completed he expresses his love for her effort to please him.

If the task is not completed he addresses the reasons to ensure she is not prevented from completing it in the future.

I have found the answers to these questions most often fall into three basic categories:
1. The sub accepts and completes the task to the best of her ability as a normal part of her daily routine as a submissive with no expectation of gratitude or gratuity from her Master of Dom.

In a love-based bdsm relationship she has every reason to believe her beloved will notice and acknowledge her effort. He has no reason to begrudge her that.

2. The sub uses the task as an opportunity to manipulate her Master of Dom into giving the response that *she* wants.

AKA "topping from the bottom". Whenever I've come across something like that (and it is rare in my life) I've considered it symptomatic of a problem in the relationship.

Trust needs no games of deception to get what is needed, and without trust, there is no love.

3. Or in a smaller category, refuses the task.

I've not experienced that, but then I am careful when assigning a task. I do not assign tasks that are dangerous, or that are beyond the abilities of my beloved or the scope of our relationship.

Also, of all the lifestyles I have researched, the D/s, M/s and BDSM lifestyle harbors more anger and hostility than any other. Being the case, if you cannot discuss this subject without becoming hostile or defensive, please do not respond. If you wish, you may respond with your opinions either on the message board, or by PM if you prefer to be discreet; however, please be civil.

A wise precaution.

 

[Zachariah_Cane]

CutieMouse:

Deleted

 

[infinity706]

There's really no way to define BDSM, though. We don't have a uniform training program and everyone "hires" their own Pyls/pyls for their own, personal needs. It's no different than someone hiring a babysitter. The terms are up to the people involved.

Now, as for service oriented verses not service oriented submissives, it's all about mindset. For some, submission is simply a natural part of the desire to serve. For others, though, submission is a way to give up control to someone else and the service is more like a price that they pay in exchange for a Pyl having control over them.

As for "doormat," though, it really depends on context. If it's used in a playful context, it's no different than the common practice of calling a pyl a slut, whore, cunt, cum dumpster, or any other dirty word. It's only really negative when someone is just too much of a pussy to stand up to anyone, rather than offering submission because they want to.

 

[BLoved]

It's only really negative when someone is just too much of a pussy to stand up to anyone, rather than offering submission because they want to.

aka someone with low self-esteem ... a favourite prey for predators and abusive personalities.

 

[ownedsubgal]

As for "doormat," though, it really depends on context. If it's used in a playful context, it's no different than the common practice of calling a pyl a slut, whore, cunt, cum dumpster, or any other dirty word. It's only really negative when someone is just too much of a pussy to stand up to anyone, rather than offering submission because they want to.

what you refer to as "too much of a pussy to stand up to anyone," others refer to as natural submissiveness, or to clarify, submissiveness as an instinctive personality trait as opposed to conscious choice. as a "doormat" by many's standards, the word no longer holds any negative connotation for me. it is just a word used to describe a particular type of submissive, and it's unfortunate that so many seem to look down upon such submissives.

 

[BLoved]

what you refer to as "too much of a pussy to stand up to anyone," others refer to as natural submissiveness, or to clarify, submissiveness as an instinctive personality trait as opposed to conscious choice. as a "doormat" by many's standards, the word no longer holds any negative connotation for me. it is just a word used to describe a particular type of submissive, and it's unfortunate that so many seem to look down upon such submissives.

Giving service to someone who doesn't know how to handle it responsibly is not doing them a service, but offering them a temptation to abuse which they cannot resist.

Those with a healthy self-esteem do not offer service to abusive personalities.

Those with low self-esteem offer service to just about everyone in the hopes of finding approval.

There is a difference.

 

[Kikori]

Thank you for your considered response to my questions; I very much appreciate it, and if I may, I would like to elaborate on my reasoning for trying to define D/s and M/s lifestyles.

In my opinion, (and in the opinion of most of the rational world), a person cannot be something simply because they claim to be. For example: A person cannot be a neurosurgeon simply because they claim to be; to be a neurosurgeon; a person must actually meet the criterion that defines the profession. In other words, a person wanting to be a neurosurgeon must have the education, training and license to be a neurosurgeon before he or she can make that claim: to claim otherwise is not only ludicrous, it is illegal.

The same rational can be applied to lifestyles. A person cannot be a Dom or a submissive simply because he or she claims to be: they must first meet the criterion that defines the lifestyle or relationship. Without a clear and universal definition of the lifestyle, it becomes impossible to distinguish the qualified Doms and submissivies from the wannabes, players and abusers. Hence my reasoning for wanting to understand these lifestyles.

Unfortunately, not in this case. People can claim to be whatever they want, without the proper training or qualifications. However, unlike (for example) a self-proclaimed surgeon doing work without the legal license, there is no test you can take or school you can go to that properly qualifies you to be a master. It's something that can only be gotten from research and, more often, training and experience. This is why even an amateur can claim a certain title and not be wrong, just not as knowledgeable as someone who's been at it for years and years.

You make the distinction between service oriented submissives and non-service oriented submissives, this is the first time I have heard it put in this context. Could you elaborate on how one would make the distinction between service oriented and non-service oriented submissives? I had assumed that submissive meant submissive, I had not realized there could be a distinction.

It pretty much depends on if the submission is limited to intimacy or not.
A service oriented submissive, if I'm not mistaken, is one who's more prone to serve his or her Dom(me) outside of bed. Perhaps not as a full-out servant, but it's saying the sub is willing to be told what to do and enjoys doing what makes the Dom(me) happy both in bed and out of it. This quite often gets applied to a submissive doing much of the housework.
A non-service oriented submissive is pretty much only a submissive in bed. Not everyone who enjoys submitting their body to others will be as comfortable having to be guided by or under the thumb of their Dom(me). That kind of submissive will wind up being on equal terms or higher outside of bed, saving their will to submit for when the clothes are coming off.

 

[Netzach]

A service oriented submissive is someone you do not have to wrangle with, convince, beat, or persuade to do *service* - it's their first-line impulse and their main motivator. A really strong example of a non-service oriented person will need a show of your strength, superiority, power, etc. blah - to so much as run the hot water for you. (I'll pass but some people thrive on that)

You can pretty much assume that if you are not a blithering idiot who misuses said service oriented person you don't have to do a ton of corrective action. An overly heavy corrective hand will also kill their spirit.

I'm not given to sub/dog comparisons but some dogs have to be trained for years to sit, some get the picture on maybe the third try because they're oriented toward work and service by design. You do not use a rolled up paper on a dog like that.

You are quite right that F/m does have a different dynamic - this is the only *acceptable* interaction for me, whether I'm working a man or a woman, as it is for many, though not all, of the women I know who have people in service to them. "refuse the order to manipulate to get what I want" is not even on the map of acceptable responses.

The idea that there ever was a uniform standard for Dominant or submissive behavior is a very appealing myth within BDSM subcultures, as a post-AIDS longing for connection to the past, but it's up for debate, even among those who cherish the notion of an "Old Guard" the most. http://www.evilmonk.org/a/rinella.cfm The best thing you can do is hold fast to what's really submissive behavior in relation to you and find the compatible individual (s)

 

[JMohegan]

Thank you for your considered response to my questions; I very much appreciate it, and if I may, I would like to elaborate on my reasoning for trying to define D/s and M/s lifestyles.

In my opinion, (and in the opinion of most of the rational world), a person cannot be something simply because they claim to be. For example: A person cannot be a neurosurgeon simply because they claim to be; to be a neurosurgeon; a person must actually meet the criterion that defines the profession. In other words, a person wanting to be a neurosurgeon must have the education, training and license to be a neurosurgeon before he or she can make that claim: to claim otherwise is not only ludicrous, it is illegal.

The same rational can be applied to lifestyles. A person cannot be a Dom or a submissive simply because he or she claims to be: they must first meet the criterion that defines the lifestyle or relationship. Without a clear and universal definition of the lifestyle, it becomes impossible to distinguish the qualified Doms and submissivies from the wannabes, players and abusers. Hence my reasoning for wanting to understand these lifestyles.

Rationale.

And dude, you just mastered the dominate = verb, dominant = adjective thing. Don't you think that trying to construct the Webster's of MDom seems like biting off more than you can chew?

 

[CutieMouse]

If you are unaware, PYL = Pick Your Label - Dominant/Master Top, and pyl = pick your label - submissive/slave/bottom.

The same rational can be applied to lifestyles. A person cannot be a Dom or a submissive simply because he or she claims to be: they must first meet the criterion that defines the lifestyle or relationship. Without a clear and universal definition of the lifestyle, it becomes impossible to distinguish the qualified Doms and submissivies from the wannabes, players and abusers. Hence my reasoning for wanting to understand these lifestyles.

Simplest definition [from a pyl perspective] -

submissives, submit.

The challenge, however, is that everyone views those words differently. There are a million and ten "ways" to be submissive; there are a million and ten "ways" to be dominant. Given this annoying (entertaining) little twist, I would suggest one's time might be better spent defining what defines a M/s or D/s dynamic *for you*, then find someone who fits your personal model... a process (BTW) that can sometimes take years to figure out.

You make the distinction between service oriented submissives and non-service oriented submissives, this is the first time I have heard it put in this context. Could you elaborate on how one would make the distinction between service oriented and non-service oriented submissives? I had assumed that submissive meant submissive, I had not realized there could be a distinction.

*To me* a service oriented submissive is one who serves sexually, and non-sexually, and their focus is on the act of submission/service (sexual or not). Someone mentioned things like housework as an example of service oriented submission, but IMO it extends far beyond that. If one's submissive is skilled with money/numbers, giving them control of the budget/investments/etc would be an act of dominance on the PYL's part, and an act of submission on the pyl's part. I tend to view myself as a tool in my lover's toolbox... I am there to make his life work better - intimately, emotionally, physically, or in any other way I can. In return, my life works better.

Also if I may ask, in your relationship, did you openly discuss defining your relationship as D/s, or did it just seem to naturally evolve to that?

I'm pretty up front about how I operate, but I'm also pretty freaking low key. I will not enter any sort of anything with someone unless I know we can be good friends; I have no problem stating my [few] limits, nor expressing my needs.

I do understand what you mean by “submitting to and serving him, by not submitting to or serving him”. To truly serve, sometimes one must serve in a way that is counter to their own natural instinct to serve.

I don't agree with that. Respecting his boundaries is respecting his boundaries; it doesn't have much to do with my submission (other than giving me an ironic chuckle or three).

I not only share your dislike for the term “vanilla” when applied to a relationship or lifestyle, I also dislike the term “doormat” when applied to a submissive woman. These derogatory terms are often used by intolerant members of the M/s, D/s, BDSM community. I have never understood why those members of the M/s, D/s, BDSM community who ask for the most tolerance, often show the least.

I don't know what "communities" you've been hanging out at, but "doormat" has never been an okay term on any forum/etc I've ever been on. In fact, because of OSG's influence over the years, I've found myself wanting to respect the views of those who aren't offended by the term; I try very hard to view it as a neutral term now, rather than assign negativity to the word.

 

[Bandit58]

*To me* a service oriented submissive is one who serves sexually, and non-sexually, and their focus is on the act of submission/service (sexual or not). Someone mentioned things like housework as an example of service oriented submission, but IMO it extends far beyond that. If one's submissive is skilled with money/numbers, giving them control of the budget/investments/etc would be an act of dominance on the PYL's part, and an act of submission on the pyl's part. I tend to view myself as a tool in my lover's toolbox... I am there to make his life work better - intimately, emotionally, physically, or in any other way I can. In return, my life works better.

I'm probably what you would call a "service submissive" (except that I hate cleaning )

However I set up and take down a haemodialysis machine, stick cannulas into Sir, and get Him on that machine every 2nd day for 8 hours. I organise His medications, do the shopping, laundry, cooking and dishes (and cleaning under protest )

Our relationship started out 6 years ago as mainly in the bedroom, but over time has evolved to include service outside of that. I manage our finances and make sure our bills are paid. Since Sir is dyslexic, I help Him with reading and spelling. Setting up anything to do with technology is also down to me.

 

[C Stephen]

"However I set up and take down a haemodialysis machine, stick cannulas into Sir, and get Him on that machine every 2nd day for 8 hours. I organise His medications, do the shopping, laundry, cooking and dishes (and cleaning under protest )

Our relationship started out 6 years ago as mainly in the bedroom, but over time has evolved to include service outside of that. I manage our finances and make sure our bills are paid. Since Sir is dyslexic, I help Him with reading and spelling. Setting up anything to do with technology is also down to me. "

Bandit,
I am not sure that this makes you a service submissive as much as it shows you are a caring partner. I have made my living in the dialysis field for 30 years. You have my admiration and respect for all that it takes to ride that rollercoaster. Your Sir is lucky to have you in his life.