Is BDSM intrinsecally sexual?

[Lizzie_Borden]

Its no trouble. Every single overly-repeated yawn-worthy statement is put into a program that randomly selects a paragraph or phrase to copy. He just hits paste a few times and then submits

Why did I just have a "Monkeys typing Shakespeare" vibe?

 

[MisterSir]

HEY. I know some very intelligent monkeys, thank you, and I don't think they'd appreciate such a horrid comparison! Evil woman...

 

[fuckmeat]

If someone comes in to a community and does nothing but attack it and claim that it's purpose is wrong, of course that community will try and exclude or ignore that person. A raging liberal at a conservative Christian coalition meeting or a vegan at a convention of butchers. It makes no difference what the individual or group represents. Whether or not the people have "dysfunctional attitudes" is irrelevant. Eventually people get tired of listening to the endless repetition of a monologue.

Exactly and far more polite than I would have managed, given the inflamatory inference that all evil casual BDSMers are as morally reprehensible as kiddiefiddlers.

Why did I just have a "Monkeys typing Shakespeare" vibe?

I have no idea tbh because all DLuded seems to do is copy/paste.

HEY. I know some very intelligent monkeys, thank you, and I don't think they'd appreciate such a horrid comparison! Evil woman...

I completely agree.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Evil woman...

It's all part of my charm.

I have no idea tbh because all DLuded seems to do is copy/paste.

MTS = Monkeys banging away at keyboards and the laws of all things random tells us that eventually the gibberish forms real words.

It struck me akin to Molly's "random C+P generator'

Heh

 

[RuReal]

I am going to be a pain because Wikipedia should never be a source for quoting information.

Websters Dictonary:
Defin of Sex

2 : the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of organisms that are involved in reproduction marked by the union of gametes and that distinguish males and females
3 a : sexually motivated phenomena or behavior

Considering all of the acts that occur in a BDSM lifestyle I fail to see how it meets the qualification.

I have watched people do public needle play more to add aesthetics than out of real pleasure. Is that sexual as well?

 

[LaRocha]

I am going to be a pain because Wikipedia should never be a source for quoting information.

Websters Dictonary:
Defin of Sex

2 : the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of organisms that are involved in reproduction marked by the union of gametes and that distinguish males and females
3 a : sexually motivated phenomena or behavior

Considering all of the acts that occur in a BDSM lifestyle I fail to see how it meets the qualification.

I have watched people do public needle play more to add aesthetics than out of real pleasure. Is that sexual as well?

Why are you defining sex when the query is in defining BDSM? Any definition of BDSM I've ever seen places BDSM under "sexually motivated phenomena and/or behaviour". When looking for nontraditional definitions, a dictionary is a poor place to look. Wikipedia defines and explains ideas via consensus, a massive group of folks likely intimate with the details of that idea.

Of all of your acts within the BDSM lifestyle, which were nonsexual? Which were nonsexual for you and sexual for your partner or vice versa?

 

[RuReal]

rofl Really do you think Wikipedia is that accurate when it comes to information? What does BDSM stand for? There is nothing sexual in it's meaning add to that most of the arts used are toned down from non sexual acts.

Don't get me wrong BDSM can be very sexual, but I have seen it be non sexual so many times that I cannot see how the act of BDSM can be defined as sexual. Most aspects of medical play is not sexual in nature. When someone pulls a bag of blood from someone else for later storage is that sexual? Hanging someone from hooks can be mentally exciting and drive a rush, but it is not a sexual act?

Maybe your list of Kinks lean towards the sexual if that is the case then it will be a sexual act for you. Dominance and Submission can have nothing to do with sex. You can top someone without it being sexual in any way. I have pointed out the use as a teaching. Hell if you dive into punishments alone there usually is nothing enjoyable about that at all.

 

[MisterSir]

Really do you think Wikipedia is that accurate when it comes to information?

Given the amount of citations on the average page and how quickly vandalism gets fixed, yes.

 

[RuReal]

The fact that Wikipedia is open to editing and interpretation just because it is popular does not make it accurate. Who checks the citation and confirms accuracy of the information? A Wiki is always only as good as the information placed in it. Wikipedia is a beautiful idea in how to use technology, but I am always fearful when I watch people use it as the gospel because it just is not so. The fact that from a professional standpoint it is not used or trusted should speak volumes. Wikipedia is simply a popularity contest that can sometimes be accurate, but as a whole should not be considered valid.

Then there is the millions of people out there who do not bother to do the research and confirmation for themselves they just take what they are told or what is written as fact.

 

[LaRocha]

rofl Really do you think Wikipedia is that accurate when it comes to information? What does BDSM stand for? There is nothing sexual in it's meaning add to that most of the arts used are toned down from non sexual acts.

Don't get me wrong BDSM can be very sexual, but I have seen it be non sexual so many times that I cannot see how the act of BDSM can be defined as sexual. Most aspects of medical play is not sexual in nature. When someone pulls a bag of blood from someone else for later storage is that sexual? Hanging someone from hooks can be mentally exciting and drive a rush, but it is not a sexual act?

Maybe your list of Kinks lean towards the sexual if that is the case then it will be a sexual act for you. Dominance and Submission can have nothing to do with sex. You can top someone without it being sexual in any way. I have pointed out the use as a teaching. Hell if you dive into punishments alone there usually is nothing enjoyable about that at all.

Wikipedia is about as good a source of accurate information as Britannica, the venerable standard-bearer of facts about the world around us, according to a study published this week in the journal Nature.

http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

In encyclopedias you have a few specialists in a broad field defining their specialty and then the general field. On wikipedia you have specialists in every minute field defining their narrow specialty and likely nothing else. More than one or two people are explaining and refining sexual fetishism from psychology, sociology etc. but you also get practitioners of each fetish describing the fetish. It's competition, whoever has the best information according to the massive community of readers and editors wins.

 

[LaRocha]

rofl Really do you think Wikipedia is that accurate when it comes to information? What does BDSM stand for? There is nothing sexual in it's meaning add to that most of the arts used are toned down from non sexual acts.

Don't get me wrong BDSM can be very sexual, but I have seen it be non sexual so many times that I cannot see how the act of BDSM can be defined as sexual. Most aspects of medical play is not sexual in nature. When someone pulls a bag of blood from someone else for later storage is that sexual? Hanging someone from hooks can be mentally exciting and drive a rush, but it is not a sexual act?

Maybe your list of Kinks lean towards the sexual if that is the case then it will be a sexual act for you. Dominance and Submission can have nothing to do with sex. You can top someone without it being sexual in any way. I have pointed out the use as a teaching. Hell if you dive into punishments alone there usually is nothing enjoyable about that at all.

BDSM isn't a synonym for sexual fetishism. But BDSM is a label for a broad set of fetishistic sex practices. Asceticism doesn't fall under BDSM, and paying penance to God via self-infliction of pain resembles acts of BDSM, but these obviously aren't. What's the difference between the seemingly obsessive masochistic monk and bondage games? Transcendental meditation vs. a cheap high.

Dominance and submission play a part in your work life, your boss and you and your co-workers play these games all day. But when you want to get into BDSM world, Doms and Subs do their games because it will make their peen and veen tingle in the moment or at some point in the future.

Using pain as a teaching tool, using punishments under the guise of a Dom/sub relationship is sex. If it really was a 'punishment' the sub wouldn't be a sub, they wouldn't have anything to do with you. The sub gets off on being punished, if not that specific punishment in that moment, the entire series of punishments that makes up the relationship are as a whole, a turn on.

ROFL, medical play isn't about sex?

 

[ownedsubgal]

Using pain as a teaching tool, using punishments under the guise of a Dom/sub relationship is sex. If it really was a 'punishment' the sub wouldn't be a sub, they wouldn't have anything to do with you. The sub gets off on being punished, if not that specific punishment in that moment, the entire series of punishments that makes up the relationship are as a whole, a turn on.

i couldn't disagree more with this premise, but then i am not in a "BDSM" relationship. you have to recognize the vast difference between dom/sub as roles donned for erotic purposes, and D/s as way of life based on core personality traits. in this household punishment is a very serious manner and something which i strive to avoid always. there is nothing remotely erotic about it.

 

[RuReal]

LaRocha

The point I am trying to make is the context of what you are doing will define the reaction to it. So what you are saying is regardless of intentions and players involved BDSM is sex? What makes it so in your thoughts? Are you saying that any sub who likes spanking will get off for anyone that provides the service?

I would rather not put words in your mouth, but I figure I want to get a full understanding of what you are saying. You also seem to be claiming that all people are the same and all events are the same in a BDSM context. As I have said before I have been around many different types of play and I have played myself there is not always sexual reaction to all that is done. If you think there is then I think you are mistaken. As I stated before depending on the intention of play the reaction can be varied.

You seem to think that punishment in the role of BDSM play is not part of the play and there is some form of sexual response to that punishment. If the Top is truly punishing there should really be no such response unless that is the intent and then one would question this as being punishment. In fact in various places it is suggested that punishment be something not even remotely related to normal play otherwise you can send confusing messages to the bottom.

We can go around and around in circles and you can state your opinion as I can site mine. I will say that most play between me and my partner is very sexual in nature at this time, but I have watched and seen play that had no such context. I will also say that I know our play is sexual it is how we wish it to be, but if I don’t want a sexual reaction I can shut that down just as easily as one puts out a candle. When I am practicing my rope work on my partner without any real plan for play neither of us react. It is a BDSM act is it not and from what you are saying one of us should be tingling during this?

 

[LaRocha]

LaRocha

The point I am trying to make is the context of what you are doing will define the reaction to it. So what you are saying is regardless of intentions and players involved BDSM is sex? What makes it so in your thoughts? Are you saying that any sub who likes spanking will get off for anyone that provides the service?

I would rather not put words in your mouth, but I figure I want to get a full understanding of what you are saying. You also seem to be claiming that all people are the same and all events are the same in a BDSM context. As I have said before I have been around many different types of play and I have played myself there is not always sexual reaction to all that is done. If you think there is then I think you are mistaken. As I stated before depending on the intention of play the reaction can be varied.

You seem to think that punishment in the role of BDSM play is not part of the play and there is some form of sexual response to that punishment. If the Top is truly punishing there should really be no such response unless that is the intent and then one would question this as being punishment. In fact in various places it is suggested that punishment be something not even remotely related to normal play otherwise you can send confusing messages to the bottom.

We can go around and around in circles and you can state your opinion as I can site mine. I will say that most play between me and my partner is very sexual in nature at this time, but I have watched and seen play that had no such context. I will also say that I know our play is sexual it is how we wish it to be, but if I don’t want a sexual reaction I can shut that down just as easily as one puts out a candle. When I am practicing my rope work on my partner without any real plan for play neither of us react. It is a BDSM act is it not and from what you are saying one of us should be tingling during this?

The thing for me, as others have mentioned, they've too 'watched and seen' what looked like nonsexual BDSM, while they haven't participated in it. I don't think watching and seeing is knowing what someone else is experiencing.

Practicing and Teaching are something separate from the game itself. BDSM isn't so dissimilar from golf or any other game, and if you're at a driving range you're not actually playing the game. As both BDSM and golf have rules and definitions for play. I've been asking for a fairly specific experience from players, a description of a mainstream BDSM scenario that's clearly nonsexual, not one that looks or might be nonsexual.

In BDSM context an act itself doesn't have to immediately reveal itself as sex play. But I also haven't heard much about nonsexual dom/sub relationships. I know cult leaders resemble doms, are they, with or without their use of sex? Or does it just resemble.

 

[RuReal]

The thing for me, as others have mentioned, they've too 'watched and seen' what looked like nonsexual BDSM, while they haven't participated in it. I don't think watching and seeing is knowing what someone else is experiencing.

Practicing and Teaching are something separate from the game itself. BDSM isn't so dissimilar from golf or any other game, and if you're at a driving range you're not actually playing the game. As both BDSM and golf have rules and definitions for play. I've been asking for a fairly specific experience from players, a description of a mainstream BDSM scenario that's clearly nonsexual, not one that looks or might be nonsexual.

In BDSM context an act itself doesn't have to immediately reveal itself as sex play. But I also haven't heard much about nonsexual dom/sub relationships. I know cult leaders resemble doms, are they, with or without their use of sex? Or does it just resemble.

I know of nonsexual dom/sub relationships. I also know of a great lady that does self suspension bondage. In talking to her there is nothing sexual about her bondage instead it brings her peace and allows her mind to rest and relax.

One cannot be involved in all BDSM scenes so as I said I have observed and talked to the people who were there. I am by no means a far standing observer. One tends to learn by doing and being involved. I would say there is no such thing as one who is a Teacher of BDSM as there are too many aspects of it to call anyone an expert. I know authors of the subject matter as well and I do not call them experts by any means.

Once cannot paint all that is involved in BDSM with one large brush. You cannot accurately claim it is intrinsically sexual just like you cannot claim it is not sexual. It is both things depending on what you are doing. Since I have established that nobody is an expert that I do not see how popular view on stating something is sexual in nature is by any means accurate. Considering some of the people making the claim that BDSM is always sexual are probably not practitioners.

I guess my question for you once again is if one is learning a new technique in BDSM are you saying that that interaction is sexual in nature?

If I only watched and did not talk and know the people involved I would agree with you, but I do talk to these people as well.

 

[LaRocha]

I know of nonsexual dom/sub relationships. I also know of a great lady that does self suspension bondage. In talking to her there is nothing sexual about her bondage instead it brings her peace and allows her mind to rest and relax.

One cannot be involved in all BDSM scenes so as I said I have observed and talked to the people who were there. I am by no means a far standing observer. One tends to learn by doing and being involved. I would say there is no such thing as one who is a Teacher of BDSM as there are too many aspects of it to call anyone an expert. I know authors of the subject matter as well and I do not call them experts by any means.

Once cannot paint all that is involved in BDSM with one large brush. You cannot accurately claim it is intrinsically sexual just like you cannot claim it is not sexual. It is both things depending on what you are doing. Since I have established that nobody is an expert that I do not see how popular view on stating something is sexual in nature is by any means accurate. Considering some of the people making the claim that BDSM is always sexual are probably not practitioners.

I guess my question for you once again is if one is learning a new technique in BDSM are you saying that that interaction is sexual in nature?

If I only watched and did not talk and know the people involved I would agree with you, but I do talk to these people as well.

You asked me the same question I asked you, and I don't know that I can answer it. Is learning the rules to a game the same as playing a game?

The lady you describe, hanging from hooks -- why would you define her as a practitioner of BDSM? Because she resembles other bondage/suspension practitioners? That scenario, the woman hanging from hooks is fairly common in BDSM porn. But it's also common in performance art and in some cultures it's purely meditative. It seems like I paint narrower pictures of BDSM than you. You want to include performance art into BDSM?

I like working with definitions already existent. They all say BDSM is a category of fetishistic sex practices, specialized modes of arousal.

I know of subordinate and dominant relationships that are nonsexual. The Heaven's Gate cult was a-sexual, completely subordinate to the Dom/God/Leader. Under most definitions BDSM is too narrow to include something like that as an example of the D.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You asked me the same question I asked you, and I don't know that I can answer it. Is learning the rules to a game the same as playing a game?

The lady you describe, hanging from hooks -- why would you define her as a practitioner of BDSM? Because she resembles other bondage/suspension practitioners? That scenario, the woman hanging from hooks is fairly common in BDSM porn. But it's also common in performance art and in some cultures it's purely meditative. It seems like I paint narrower pictures of BDSM than you. You want to include performance art into BDSM?

I like working with definitions already existent. They all say BDSM is a category of fetishistic sex practices, specialized modes of arousal.

I know of subordinate and dominant relationships that are nonsexual. The Heaven's Gate cult was a-sexual, completely subordinate to the Dom/God/Leader. Under most definitions BDSM is too narrow to include something like that as an example of the D.

Oh, honestly.

You are talking to a lot of people who are active in BDSM, in an enormous variety of ways-- not theoretical but practical knowledge. Don't ignore the empirical data. That way lies self-satisfied ignorance.

 

[LaRocha]

Oh, honestly.

You are talking to a lot of people who are active in BDSM, in an enormous variety of ways-- not theoretical but practical knowledge. Don't ignore the empirical data. That way lies self-satisfied ignorance.

Most of the people on this thread already chimed in with something resembling, "Yes, for me it is intrinsically sexual." The couple people who don't believe it is might have information that is of interest to everyone else. I'm looking for a way to break the definition: BDSM is a type of roleplay or lifestyle choice between two or more individuals who use their experiences of pain and power to create sexual tension, pleasure, and release.

But I've only seen outlier examples, such as: Is showing a sex act, performing a sex act? Acts resembling performance art and some resembling ethnographically described ritual. Domination and submission has to be something more than willful slave/subordinate and person in charge, that's pretty boring.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Most of the people on this thread already chimed in with something resembling, "Yes, for me it is intrinsically sexual." The couple people who don't believe it is might have information that is of interest to everyone else. I'm looking for a way to break the definition: BDSM is a type of roleplay or lifestyle choice between two or more individuals who use their experiences of pain and power to create sexual tension, pleasure, and release.

But I've only seen outlier examples, such as: Is showing a sex act, performing a sex act? Acts resembling performance art and some resembling ethnographically described ritual. Domination and submission has to be something more than willful slave/subordinate and person in charge, that's pretty boring.

I'm pretty sure that I have said that I have had BDSM experiences (flogging, specifically, at parties) that were not sexual to me or my partner. Felt great and pumped up the endorphins, but no arousal or expectations of arousal.

Also, various acts might 'resemble performance art" to you, but you are not a practitioner. As with anything we witness an act will be far more meaningful to the practitioner that views it than to the unknowledgeable bystander. me at a dressage show, for instance-- I don't know shit, and cannot understand the subtleties of the horse/rider interactions.

Does that make sense?

 

[RuReal]

I'm pretty sure that I have said that I have had BDSM experiences (flogging, specifically, at parties) that were not sexual to me or my partner. Felt great and pumped up the endorphins, but no arousal or expectations of arousal.

Also, various acts might 'resemble performance art" to you, but you are not a practitioner. As with anything we witness an act will be far more meaningful to the practitioner that views it than to the unknowledgeable bystander. me at a dressage show, for instance-- I don't know shit, and cannot understand the subtleties of the horse/rider interactions.

Does that make sense?

Thank you that was my point exactly. I know the lady that had the hooks in her and it was a BDSM scene you are staging BDSM on a very narrow ground. As someone who is into BDSM and is active in my local community what you are saying does not seem right at all.

Frankly don't care how many people on the thread say that BDSM is sexual. I am saying that it is both sexual and non sexual depending on the parties involved and the intent of the play. Her hanging was by no means a form of medieval practice in fact it was part of a large BDSM event in this case Torture Garden google it if you would like might be a bit eye opening.

 

[Stella_Omega]

http://www.torturegarden.com/

Whole lotta latex going on!

 

[RuReal]

http://www.torturegarden.com/

Whole lotta latex going on!

Yeah could not make it this year, but I so don't plan on missing next year. I am sure I will get pictures and play by play this weekend.

 

[minx1]

bumping - interesting discussion.