The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[BLoved]

This whole line of discussion is disingenuous. I find it hard to believe that the motivation is a heartfelt desire to see the end of the spread of HIV.

Irresponsibility manifests itself in many ways.

Should it surprise anyone that those who are irresponsible enough to engage in casual 'bdsm' are also irresponsible enough to spread AIDs/HIV through casual sex?

Or is it the hope of players and advocates to lure in those who are too young to recall how the gay community was stricken by AIDs/HIV thanks to the irresponsible behaviour of casual players and their advocates.

 

[FloggingMolly]

4. Bloved seems to believe the 'reader' is thick enough to be swayed one way or the other by comments made on this thread. The rest of us think you're smart enough to use your own inner BS detector.

 

[BLoved]

4. Bloved seems to believe the 'reader' is thick enough to be swayed one way or the other by comments made on this thread. The rest of us think you're smart enough to use your own inner BS detector.

And if there were such a thing as an infallible "BS detector" there would be no such thing as fraud and we would all know when someone was lying. Spies and politicians would be out of work.

They are only interested in luring in those they can fool. If they can convince you that you have an infallible BS detector, that just makes it all the easier for them.

Be lazy and let the mob do your thinking for you (and fall into their traps) or be smart and do your own research.

The choice is yours.

 

[intothewoods]

Indeed.

The topic is "The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'". What we have witnessed in this discussion is three-fold:

1. there are no ethics when it comes to casual 'bdsm'.

2. players and their advocates, aware there are no ethics, have attempted to distract the reader from the fact there are no ethics when it comes to casual 'bdsm'.

3. the degree of immaturity and lack of self-restraint demonstrated by players and their advocates in public gives no reason to place any trust in those who practice or advocate casual 'bdsm'.



~smile~

I invite the reader to review the discussion to determine for him or herself the truth of the above statements.

Thank you for ignoring the substance of my post.

 

[rida]

Thank you for ignoring the substance of my post.

selective quoting and all that


And for the interested reader I'd like to point out that if you press the little square next to the name of the person who's post is quoted, you can get to see the complete original post. And decide for yourself the relevance of the *snipping*.

 

[FloggingMolly]

Thanks rida, I ddn't know that

This isn't sarcastic, I genuinely didn't!

 

[TypicalDeviant]

And if there were such a thing as an infallible "BS detector" there would be no such thing as fraud and we would all know when someone was lying. Spies and politicians would be out of work.

They are only interested in luring in those they can fool. If they can convince you that you have an infallible BS detector, that just makes it all the easier for them.

Be lazy and let the mob do your thinking for you (and fall into their traps) or be smart and do your own research.

The choice is yours.

You say that, but when people do their own research and it disagrees with yours, you put them down and tell them they're wrong. When someone asks you to clarify your argument, you avoid the question and go for the ad hominem (Oh, so THAT'S how the casual community is).

You're not here to discuss, you're here to pontificate.

 

[chy_girl]

Bloved,

Wouldn't you please, please, please post these opinions in length on Fetlife and then send me the link? Please?

I have a friend that I would love to point the direction of your writing but he refuses to come here anymore.

Please?

 

[WriterDom]

Bloved,

Wouldn't you please, please, please post these opinions in length on Fetlife and then send me the link? Please?

I have a friend that I would love to point the direction of your writing but he refuses to come here anymore.

Please?

He cannot. Fetlife has banned him for seven times seventy years and all his offspring have been banned for seven generations.


Why? Because he exposes the truth about casual bdsm.

 

[Scotsman69]

Just add him to your ignore list, as I have. If we all do that, he'll go away. PLEASE?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Just add him to your ignore list, as I have. If we all do that, he'll go away. PLEASE?

Issue being that I don't want to make some of his threads disappear, because the stuff that doesn't include him is actually interesting

 

[WriterDom]

Just add him to your ignore list, as I have. If we all do that, he'll go away. PLEASE?

If you put him on ignore, every thread he starts will not be visible to you personally. In that sense he will disappear.

 

[Seurat]

Issue being that I don't want to make some of his threads disappear, because the stuff that doesn't include him is actually interesting

Lemonade from lemons.


Is this thread really still going?

 

[BLoved]

You say that, but when people do their own research and it disagrees with yours, you put them down and tell them they're wrong. When someone asks you to clarify your argument, you avoid the question and go for the ad hominem (Oh, so THAT'S how the casual community is).

You're not here to discuss, you're here to pontificate.

I have yet to see a substantive argument in favour of the 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'.

What I have witnessed is a lot of immaturity and a great deal of effort to distract readers from the topic.

There was a time (over 25 years ago) when I believed bdsm was unhealthy, and that not even in love could it be made healthy.

I was wrong.

I learned I was wrong by discussing it with someone who approached the topic in a mature and intelligent manner.

I see none of that here.

What I see is a group of people who insist casual 'bdsm' is healthy, and whose sole 'argument' seems to be that if I disagree, they will do their best to demonize me if I do not subscribe to their faith-based 'bdsm'.

I've argued the psychology, the paleo-anthropology and the health risks of the topic while others continue to throw tomatos because, let's be honest, that's the best they got.

If I've come across as "pontificating" it is because I lack a dance partner in this discussion and the only candidates who have offered themselves believe that stomping on my toes is the best way to teach me to dance their dance.

Forgive me if I have an aversion to dysfunctional behaviour.

Don't get me wrong, this comes as no surprise to me. This is not the first place where I have offered the casual community the opportunity to justify itself. Nor is this the first time where the casual community has completely failed to present a mature and responsible argument in favour of its practice.

This is certainly not the first time casual players and their advocates have chosen to present themselves as bullies in the schoolyard.

I have no illusions that I can convince heroin addicts to give up heroin, or alcoholics to give up booze, and I certainly have no illusions that I can convince casual players to give up ther dysfunctional attitudes.

But on the other hand, I am reasonably confident that given the chance to present their justifications, casual players and their advocates can do quite well at chasing away novices who might have thought casual 'bdsm' was ethical and that players and their advocates were responsible adults.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is invited to review the discussion and determine the truth for themselves.

 

[BLoved]

Bloved,

Wouldn't you please, please, please post these opinions in length on Fetlife and then send me the link? Please?

I did, about two years ago.

Casual players and their advocates had me banned for it, just as they had me banned from the forums at collarme, bondage.com and mydungeonspace.

Strategies

Paint a Rosy Picture

Control the medium, and you control the message.

The casual community has learned this lesson well.

By ensuring they are in positions of control: site owners, group owners, moderators, etc they are in a position to ensure only the message they want others to hear will be heard, and no other.

From this position they can make any claim, and as they have the authority to control what is heard, dissent is never heard.

And anyone who doesn't get with the program can be made an example of for others.

-- excerpt from "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love" (which was written for and first appeared on FetLife).

###Essays

[The Muse](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80439)

[Love and Respect](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80440)

[The Little Things ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80441)

[The Inner Child](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80442)

[To My Beloved](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80443)

[Promises ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80444)

[Promises to Live By](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80446)

[Barnacles and Butterflies](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80448)

[Compassionate People](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80449)

[A Rare Woman ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80450)

[A Gentleman ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80452)

[Love is ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80454)

[A Master Weeps ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80455)

[City Folk ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80458)

[Love, A Short Trilogy - Part I: Endings](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80466)

[Love, A Short Trilogy - Part II: Introductions](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80465)

[Love, A Short Trilogy - Part III: Winter Interlude](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/80464)

[Casual 'Play' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/86893)

[Haiku 'Stories'](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/90919)

[A few tips for Submissives questing for a Beloved](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/92349)

[Why are some people so desperate for consent?](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/92823)

[REFERENCES-R-US](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/94588)

[Accepting the End](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/95350)

[O' the Woe of Owning a Forest](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/96775)

[A Tale of Two Frauds](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/97149)

[Envisioning my Beloved ... ](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/97162)

[Morning](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/99661)

[Selfish Bastards](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/100234)

[Pimps and Sluts](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/100309)

[The Rule of Mediocrity](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/100372)

[Why I have no friends on my friends list](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/100413)

[The Inner Child - Requiem](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/101776)

[What does a dom risk?](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/102950)

[Being the First ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/103131)

[Daffy](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/103417)

[Rome wasn't built in a day ...](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/104410)

[Why the Lady in the Leopard Lingerie can't change her Spots](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/108671)

[Magnificent](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/109071)

[Sigh](http://fetlife.com/users/136920/posts/109616)


###Discussions

Probably all of the discussions in [A Support Group for Love](http://fetlife.com/groups/5675) and [Robert A. Heinlein](http://fetlife.com/groups/6623)



[Love: A Short Trilogy](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/123204)

[Promises to Live By](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/123852)

[Involvement with broken people](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/116482)

[Spin off from Broken People](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/124276)

[Is Nothing Sacred?](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/124771)

[The Inner Child](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/125193)

[Does hypnosis void consent?](http://fetlife.com/groups/2602/group_posts/125204)

[Kahlil Gibran... On Love](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/125243)

[The Little Things ...](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/125797)

["Now I know I've got a heart ..."](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/126513)

[Passion](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/126582)

[decision to love](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/127097)

[The Wall](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/127331)

[Loveless bdsm](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/127441)

[The aura of a woman in love](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/128293)

[A little humour](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/128515)

[Need some love today.......](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/129499)

[Love and the One Night Stand](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/129963)

[Some additional group guidelines - censored - deleted](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/129859)

[A Support Group for Love - group owner removed her own comments](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/131563)

[Vulnerabilities](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/131956)

[References and those who engage exclusively in loving relationships - group owner removed her own comments](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/132255)

[Loveisallyouneed](http://fetlife.com/groups/2711/group_posts/132033)

[Outdoor Bondage: "Tie that yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree"](http://fetlife.com/groups/1861/group_posts/135369)

[Haiku 'stories'](http://fetlife.com/groups/1905/group_posts/135301)

[Casual 'Play' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love](http://fetlife.com/groups/5886/group_posts/135033)

[Casual 'Play' and Emotional Abuse - deleted](http://fetlife.com/groups/610)

[What value, dignity?](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/138147)

[Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies....](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/115571)

[Add "Widow/Widower" to Relationship Status Options](http://fetlife.com/groups/897/group_posts/141057)

[Building a community](http://fetlife.com/groups/6069/group_posts/141119)

[Politics as usual](http://fetlife.com/groups/6062/group_posts/141198)

[By the Fire - A Lost Haiku 'Story'](http://fetlife.com/groups/1905/group_posts/142753)

[Old Wolf - a new Haiku 'Story'](http://fetlife.com/groups/1905/group_posts/145504)

[Love, A Short Trilogy - Part III: Winter Interlude](http://fetlife.com/groups/2629/group_posts/135375)

[A few tips for Submissives questing for a Beloved](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/145877)

[What makes writing erotic?](http://fetlife.com/groups/2629/group_posts/146143)

[Why are some people so desperate for a consent?](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/146791)

[Credibility](http://fetlife.com/groups/12/group_posts/139466)

[Will you good people enlighten me regarding some scripture?](http://fetlife.com/groups/922/group_posts/150710)

[My story, and that of others](http://fetlife.com/groups/922/group_posts/151367)

[Works in Progress](http://fetlife.com/groups/922/group_posts/151384)

[Encouragement/Instruction for Christians](http://fetlife.com/groups/922/group_posts/151554)

[Note from the group leader](http://fetlife.com/groups/922/group_posts/151631)

[Stalkers are plotting ...](http://fetlife.com/groups/5675/group_posts/152916)

[Consent](http://fetlife.com/groups/6465/group_posts/153540)

[The Inner Child](http://fetlife.com/groups/276/group_posts/157718)

[Surrender](http://fetlife.com/users/79803/posts/98221)

[Is there a point where it can be considered "going too far?"](http://fetlife.com/users/143099/posts/98251)

[Please update the terms of use](http://fetlife.com/groups/897/group_posts/179631)

[suggestion box to fetlife...adding relationship widow/widower...](http://fetlife.com/groups/3070/group_posts/177448)

[Editing the OP to render discussion pointless - censored](http://fetlife.com/groups/897/group_posts/181486)

[Love: A Short Trilogy](http://fetlife.com/groups/98/group_posts/179073)

[Rule FetLife, the CollarMe Way](http://fetlife.com/groups/7264/group_posts/181859)



###How not to run a smear campaign

[Casual 'Play' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/135373)

[What value, dignity?](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/138147)

[Why are some people so desperate for a consent?](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/146791)

[The 'Dignity' of a Double-Standard](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/156825)

[Apologies](http://fetlife.com/groups/4722/group_posts/156989)



####Addenda

[Do you feel you are abused by the "casual play" community? - show trial](http://fetlife.com/groups/14/group_posts/136428)

[Casual 'Play' and Emotional Abuse - censored](http://fetlife.com/groups/5150/group_posts/135299)

[Removal of Group Member - considerably censored](http://fetlife.com/groups/6653/group_posts/160318)

[Love and negativity](http://fetlife.com/users/76631/posts/111586)

[Love and negativity](http://fetlife.com/groups/3281/group_posts/183471)

[In the spirit of sharing =] - On Love and negitivity ; crossposted in "Love" group](http://fetlife.com/groups/5247/group_posts/183482)

[Tolerance of abuse?](http://fetlife.com/groups/541/group_posts/183896)

[In response to some slander and defimation posted by a member of this site;](http://fetlife.com/users/76631/posts/111583)



###Other discussions of interest

[Casual Play - the pros the cons the realities, the myths...](http://fetlife.com/groups/14/group_posts/138783)

[Does the casual community have any responsibility To protecting Subs from themselves?](http://fetlife.com/groups/14/group_posts/138825)

[Child abuse anyone?](http://fetlife.com/groups/14/group_posts/138523)

[Does the casual community have any responsibility To protecting Subs from themselves? (Cross-posted)](http://fetlife.com/groups/41/group_posts/138828)

[I did not consent to this...](http://fetlife.com/groups/41/group_posts/139980)

[Cutting Through the Linguistic Bullshit](http://fetlife.com/groups/753/group_posts/140640)

[Can the real monogomous people please raise their hands?](http://fetlife.com/groups/397/group_posts/28811)

[An Excuse To Be A 'Ho?](http://fetlife.com/groups/397/group_posts/75988)

[monogamy is vanilla???](http://fetlife.com/groups/397/group_posts/64732)

[What do people define monogamy as?](http://fetlife.com/groups/397/group_posts/90741)

[Polyamory is weighing me down](http://fetlife.com/groups/397/group_posts/113832)

[Mocking Monogamy.](http://fetlife.com/groups/397/group_posts/28601)

[Is this a Monogamy group or an "In Justification of Poly" group?](http://fetlife.com/groups/5708/group_posts/138348)

[A poly tyranny rant](http://fetlife.com/groups/5708/group_posts/136035)

[banned from submissive women's group (for being too submissive?) - deleted](http://fetlife.com/users/39126/posts/92608)

[The Disconsolate Woman](http://fetlife.com/groups/6062/group_posts/147890)

[The Alt Munch last night.....](http://fetlife.com/groups/12/group_posts/147818)

[Mind Control Comes Step by Step](http://fetlife.com/groups/6465/group_posts/155338) - Read [Consent](http://fetlife.com/groups/6465/group_posts/153540) as well

[Fetish Ball 2009](http://fetlife.com/users/1795/posts/97150) - see also [2009 Fetish Ball](http://fetlife.com/users/156928/posts/97145)

[Deceit and Lies, DANGER AHEAD](http://fetlife.com/users/83997/posts/97157)

[The Sub Women's Safety Thread](http://fetlife.com/groups/14/group_posts/154632)

[Don't let random people bite you.](http://fetlife.com/groups/2158/group_posts/41906)

[what does love have to do with it?](http://fetlife.com/groups/41/group_posts/170115)

[Love Draws No Swords](http://fetlife.com/users/4314/posts/52109) - _highly recommended_



###Groups of Interest



[BDSM Depression and other Mental Disorders](http://fetlife.com/groups/1496)

[Health & Safety Repository](http://fetlife.com/groups/257)

[Mental Health & the BDSM/KINK Lifestyle](http://fetlife.com/groups/363)

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Anyone who thinks otherwise is invited to review the discussion and determine the truth for themselves.

Most of them have, and they've also agreed that your approach is off, and therefore your message is lost.

 

[BLoved]

Most of them have, and they've also agreed that your approach is off, and therefore your message is lost.

So how many lurkers are there in total, and how many of the lurkers have you spoken with?

~smile~

Somehow, I doubt lurkers in agreement with me will have discussed the matter with you.

 

[FloggingMolly]

So how many lurkers are there in total, and how many of the lurkers have you spoken with?

~smile~

Somehow, I doubt lurkers in agreement with me will have discussed the matter with you.

well why dont you make an anonymous poll for your specialest lurkers in the whole world, then they can 'vote' for you without us mean, evil 'casual bdsmers' beating on them...

Oh wait, do imaginery friends _have_ fingers? Or computers?

 

[CutieMouse]

What I see is a group of people who insist casual 'bdsm' is healthy, and whose sole 'argument' seems to be that if I disagree, they will do their best to demonize me if I do not subscribe to their faith-based 'bdsm'.

That's interesting to me, because what I've seen from your various threads is a refusal on your part to clearly define "ethical" BDSM. Things seem to fall into two camps - YOUR WAY (the only safe, sane, consensual, healthy, non-abusive way - in your opinion), and ANYTHING else (which is automatically bad, negative, destructive, unhealthy, abusive, etc.) You have also frequently preached that anyone who disagrees with you insists their views are The ONE TRUE WAY... even though you have been the only one insisting there is only one [pure] way to practice BDSM relationships.

I've argued the psychology, the paleo-anthropology and the health risks of the topic while others continue to throw tomatos because, let's be honest, that's the best they got.

People who brought up paleographic and biological information which did not support your beliefs were ignored. If they pressed the issue, you went into victim mode. Actually, every time someone disagrees with your BDSM belief system or asks you to back things up with more than anecdotal truth, you go into victim mode (I was BANNED for these views! Look how MEAN everyone is to me!)

If I've come across as "pontificating" it is because I lack a dance partner in this discussion and the only candidates who have offered themselves believe that stomping on my toes is the best way to teach me to dance their dance.

Forgive me if I have an aversion to dysfunctional behaviour.

You've come across as pontificating, because you have been talking to hear yourself speak. If you truly and sincerely wanted your message to get across (meaning the universal message that people regardless of relationship dynamic are more likely to thrive in an emotionally healthy, supportive, nurturing relationship with a solid foundation based upon mutual trust, respect, and communication) - you would work with your intended audience, rather than insult them.

Again - the vast majority of people you are insulting and arguing with are in long term, committed, monogamous, relationships that are not casual. The vast majority of people you are insulting and arguing with are not involved in the public "scene". The vast majority of the people you are insulting and arguing with are sincerely concerned with ensuring that those who DO choose to be non-monogamous or meet people face to face do so as intelligently as possible (meaning well educated). For example, I can't think of a single person on this board who would support a woman from an abusive background choosing a lifetime commitment to someone she met at CollarMe, after knowing the man [primarily online] for three weeks. I am sincerely glad that is working for y'all, but IMO it was an unwise and unsafe decision.

 

[Homburg]

Again - the vast majority of people you are insulting and arguing with are in long term, committed, monogamous, relationships that are not casual. The vast majority of people you are insulting and arguing with are not involved in the public "scene". The vast majority of the people you are insulting and arguing with are sincerely concerned with ensuring that those who DO choose to be non-monogamous or meet people face to face do so as intelligently as possible (meaning well educated).

Quoted for truth. And, well, because it is what makes this whole thread so very special indeed.

 

[Epmd607]

This thing fuckin' sucks! Fuck it, we'll do it live! I'll write it myself and we'll do it live!

 

[TypicalDeviant]

This thing fuckin' sucks! Fuck it, we'll do it live! I'll write it myself and we'll do it live!

You owe me a new keyboard, Mr. O'Reilly!

 

[intothewoods]

As to all of those links above -- that's a lot of time to spend engaging with people one considers akin to heroin addicts.

 

[Homburg]

As to all of those links above -- that's a lot of time to spend engaging with people one considers akin to heroin addicts.

Rapist heroin addicts. You're being too kind in your description of his opinion.

 

[CutieMouse]

As to all of those links above -- that's a lot of time to spend engaging with people one considers akin to heroin addicts.

Rapist heroin addicts. You're being too kind in your description of his opinion.

Actually, I clicked on a few links scattered throughout, and the ones that were obviously started by BL (apparently formerly known as LoveIsAllYouNeed) are FetLife dead links. Which leads me to believe Mr. BL saved the titles and original links to everything thread he started, which leads me to believe there is an ego of mass proportions at play here.

BTW, if there's another explanation, I'm open to hearing it.