The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

It is one of the ways in which they are so predictable.

If that isn't the pot calling the kettle predictable.

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

- Pastor Martin Niemöller

~smile~

Godwin's Law.

~smile~

See?

Another distortion of the truth:

Anyone reviewing the link to my response will notice a couple of quotes missing which directly address his statements:


~smile~

You will find that taking their word for anything is a risky proposition.

I like how you responded with some missing quotes from me:

Now for someone who claims to want a discussion, how is that an appropriate response to get one or even further this one?

If anyone did that to you, then you would claim immaturity and another attempt to derail/end the discussion.

You acted as a martyr and attacked others instead of just stating your point. You went on the defensive way too early and lashed out at others in an attempt to make yourself look like the victim and you used that to bolster your point instead of just letting it speak for itself.

You're too quick to say, "See! They are trying to censor/shut me up/derail/cover up/end any discussion about "causal" BDSM." instead of just realizing that they may just not agree with you.

You have acted condescending, self-righteous, arrogant, mean, and close minded. None of those things are conducive to a discussion or debate.

~smile~

So predictable BL. Tsk Tsk.

 

[BLoved]

...

I noticed that while you were expounding on what you believe is and is not "BDSM" you overlooked an answer to my question.

In your world, does consent given as a result of deceit count as a "consensual act" or would you classify it along with rape?

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

This.

I'm your target demographic, ~smilie boy~!

~smile~

I seriously doubt it.

Please? Please? Please? Throw me a bone! I can be humorless and sanctimonious! I swear!

Pretty please with a ~smile~ on top?

 

[FloggingMolly]

In your world, does consent given as a result of deceit count as a "consensual act" or would you classify it along with rape?

To me, if I consented to something that I was only doing because someone deceived me, I'd feel like a fool for not having more sense and savvy, but that would be my burden to bear. When I make decisions, I always weigh up the possibilities of the outcome, and the possible motivations of the people involved. My consenting doesn't just 'happen' as a force out of my control, because I'm a smart, responsible grown up. I wouldn't classify it with rape, because I CHOSE to consent, whether that choice was smart or not.

 

[LaRocha]

I noticed that while you were expounding on what you believe is and is not "BDSM" you overlooked an answer to my question.

In your world, does consent given as a result of deceit count as a "consensual act" or would you classify it along with rape?

In this world all sexual consent is given according to a predetermined set of rules and conditions. For most relationships these rules and conditions are an unspoken fact of the fabric of our society. In BDSM world there are alternate rules, and more has to be spoken and agreed upon before an encounter.

If Person A and Person B agree to a set of rules and conditions for a sexual encounter, then Person A violates the predetermined covenant, its inane saying that this is automatically rape. Rape is a fairly specific criminal offense. Deception is usually a state of mind, nefarious intentions not necessarily leading to criminal actions. So, I think I did answer your question a few times already.

A consensual sex act rarely lives up to the predetermined aims of both participants. Say I'm married twenty years and think I'm going to have the best sex of my life tonight with my wife, we've been intimate all day, a Renaissance in our relationship is occurring, she's telling me what she's going to do to me that night...we have sex and she's obviously tired, not as into it as me. She broke my consent for sex! My wife's a rapist!

 

[LaRocha]

Deceit and emotional abuse, dysfunction have nothing to do with BDSM. There are people who are deceived and deceivers, negative human to human intimate relationships, but all that comes before anyone begins categorical BDSM sex acts.
....

And here's where I answered your question the second or third time.

No one consents to being deceived. The deception comes before consent, before the act itself. Rape is just a category of physical abuse we use to prosecute. Deception is always a part of getting someone to sleep with you, and you can bet that the person you're sleeping with has their own motives. Especially in longstanding monogamous pair bonds. You have even more reason to deceive/please your partner five and ten years down the line.

 

[BLoved]

To me, if I consented to something that I was only doing because someone deceived me, I'd feel like a fool for not having more sense and savvy, but that would be my burden to bear. When I make decisions, I always weigh up the possibilities of the outcome, and the possible motivations of the people involved. My consenting doesn't just 'happen' as a force out of my control, because I'm a smart, responsible grown up. I wouldn't classify it with rape, because I CHOSE to consent, whether that choice was smart or not.

So if a novice was told no sex would occur, and consents, and she is subsequently forced, you wouldn't call it "rape", you'd blame the novice for being "a fool for not having more sense and savvy"?

 

[FloggingMolly]

So if a novice was told no sex would occur, and consents, and she is subsequently forced, you wouldn't call it "rape", you'd blame the novice for being "a fool for not having more sense and savvy"?

So you have decided to take my answer and make the worst case scenario from it. I believe we were both thinking of different sorts of deception then.

Why did I even both to reply to this nonsense in the first place? I want my 30 seconds back.

 

[LaRocha]

So if a novice was told no sex would occur, and consents, and she is subsequently forced, you wouldn't call it "rape", you'd blame the novice for being "a fool for not having more sense and savvy"?

See, this is where you're intellectually lazy. What does each participant recognize as sex and the point of non-consent? It's not like a BDSM date gone wrong is equivalent to being on a study date at the library where the guy pulls his wang out and starts rubbing it on the girl's sweater.

Non-consensual sex only equals unwanted penetration? In a BDSM context you're likely in a sexual or sexualized context. There's plenty of deception that can occur before it gets to the point of anything resembling rape. When it does resemble rape, one participant is clearly not consenting and is under duress.

Say some girl is tied up, she told the guy not to cum on her face like he did the night before after she asked him not to, and he does it anyway -- that's not rape, it's just a girl being a moron.

 

[BLoved]

So you have decided to take my answer and make the worst case scenario from it. I believe we were both thinking of different sorts of deception then.

The problem with your previous answer, as I see it, is that it tends to blame the victim for not detecting deceit. To me, that is akin to blaming the rape victim for the rape she endured.

Deception denies the individual the facts upon which a consent/refusal is based. The victim is lured in under false pretenses.

There are many scenarios where this would be the case, including a promise that casual 'bdsm' is fun, safe and causes no harm.

News Article

A lot of people use the term "consensual act" quite freely, but are unable (or refuse) to define the term clearly enough for it to be useful.

A lot of people prefer to hold the victim accountable for not detecting a deception, rather than holding the liar responsible.

It gets to a point where the rape is no longer "rape", just the result of a poor choice by the rape victim.

The news article I included indicates that the victim consented to something, and went to the accused's house to do whatever was consented to. Obviously what occurred was not what the victim intended.

While you might argue she wasn't smart enough, "savvy" enough and had only herself to blame, society views the matter quite differently. Being lured in under false pretenses does not absolve the rapist of rape.

Just as when the casual 'bdsm' advocates lure in victims under false pretenses they are not absolved of abuse.

Nonetheless, they will, and have, argue that the victim only has him/herself to blame if he/she "consents" and is subsequently abused.

 

[BLoved]

You can't ignore consensual sex acts(ones which happen to include elements of BDSM) and assume they can't exist as emotionally positive and then pair the consensual case with actual acts of emotional or physical violence.

The problem, LaRocha, is that despite being asked a specific question to nail down your definition for "consensual" you've yet to provide a precise definition for your use of the term.

If you are going to build an argument on the concept of "consent", I think it behooves you to define the term clearly.

In your world, does consent given as a result of deceit count as a "consensual act" or would you classify it along with rape?

 

[intothewoods]

The problem, LaRocha, is that despite being asked a specific question to nail down your definition for "consensual" you've yet to provide a precise definition for your use of the term.

If you are going to build an argument on the concept of "consent", I think it behooves you to define the term clearly.

In your world, does consent given as a result of deceit count as a "consensual act" or would you classify it along with rape?

Consent as a result of deceit? As in, if you play with me, I promise to stop at x?

If I were in a play session with someone, and I said, well, any sort of penetration is off the table, but hit me as hard as you want, or something like that, then if that person ignored my limits, I would absolutely consider it a violation. Depending on the act, sure, I would call it rape. Hitting me after I said my safe word would be better described as assault.

If someone in my local group pulled that, omg the shit that woud be raised. Particularly in a casual play session, the bottom is the one in control. If I say red, the scene ends. Period, end of story. I have played with a few people casually, and they went out of their way to ask me how I was doing every step of the way. Why? The first couple of times, they don't know me from Adam. I could scream rape, I could call the cops, I could freak out and tell everyone they're and abusive asshole.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Consent as a result of deceit? As in, if you play with me, I promise to stop at x?

If I were in a play session with someone, and I said, well, any sort of penetration is off the table, but hit me as hard as you want, or something like that, then if that person ignored my limits, I would absolutely consider it a violation. Depending on the act, sure, I would call it rape. Hitting me after I said my safe word would be better described as assault.

If someone in my local group pulled that, omg the shit that woud be raised. Particularly in a casual play session, the bottom is the one in control. If I say red, the scene ends. Period, end of story. I have played with a few people casually, and they went out of their way to ask me how I was doing every step of the way. Why? The first couple of times, they don't know me from Adam. I could scream rape, I could call the cops, I could freak out and tell everyone they're and abusive asshole.

And that person's reputation would precede him within the community, forever after.

 

[rosco rathbone]

This wins the most disgusting misuse of this quote award.

To the point of being funny.

 

[LaRocha]

The problem, LaRocha, is that despite being asked a specific question to nail down your definition for "consensual" you've yet to provide a precise definition for your use of the term.

If you are going to build an argument on the concept of "consent", I think it behooves you to define the term clearly.

In your world, does consent given as a result of deceit count as a "consensual act" or would you classify it along with rape?

defining 'consensual' is pedantic. an adult is either consenting to what's being done or they're not. an adult is either approving what another is doing to them at all times or they're not. once the threshold of consent is crossed, the adult isn't approving what's being done. In BDSM there's often a safe word, if the other player continues it's assault and then possibly rape. rape is a specific form of assault in criminal court. it would really behoove you to stay on topic and not wander into definitional arguments.

your position still resembles: Sex is only intimate and emotionally healthy between pair bonded players, all intimate relationships between pair bonded players are emotionally healthy, therefore all casual relationships lack pair bond intimacy so they are emotionally unhealthy, and then for some reason -> all casual relationships are marred by deceit and therefore abuse because they lack pair bonded intimacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_bond

 

[intothewoods]

To the point of being funny.

I admit I was tempted to play the Jew card. No wait, the human card.

 

[00Syd]

Consent as a result of deceit? As in, if you play with me, I promise to stop at x?

If I were in a play session with someone, and I said, well, any sort of penetration is off the table, but hit me as hard as you want, or something like that, then if that person ignored my limits, I would absolutely consider it a violation. Depending on the act, sure, I would call it rape. Hitting me after I said my safe word would be better described as assault.

If someone in my local group pulled that, omg the shit that woud be raised. Particularly in a casual play session, the bottom is the one in control. If I say red, the scene ends. Period, end of story. I have played with a few people casually, and they went out of their way to ask me how I was doing every step of the way. Why? The first couple of times, they don't know me from Adam. I could scream rape, I could call the cops, I could freak out and tell everyone they're and abusive asshole.

And that person's reputation would precede him within the community, forever after.

Something like this happened a couple of months ago in the scene here, and holy shit, it was all anyone was talking about for weeks. I never heard the full story, only snippets here and there from various third party sources, but the guy that was charged with being a harasser and with being abusive, as far as I know, hasn't shown his face in public since. It was pretty wild, since I had always thought he seemed like a pretty nice guy, if a little manic sometimes.

But yeah, the scene is really good at policing itself. I sometimes think it's even a little too good at policing itself, since, like ITW mentioned, all someone (especially a submissive) has to do is yell "red" or "abuse" and the person referenced is almost immediately ostracized, with little to no investigation into the matter. I've seen that happen, too. If anyone has the power within the public scene, it's submissives. No question.

 

[intothewoods]

Something like this happened a couple of months ago in the scene here, and holy shit, it was all anyone was talking about for weeks. I never heard the full story, only snippets here and there from various third party sources, but the guy that was charged with being a harasser and with being abusive, as far as I know, hasn't shown his face in public since. It was pretty wild, since I had always thought he seemed like a pretty nice guy, if a little manic sometimes.

But yeah, the scene is really good at policing itself. I sometimes think it's even a little too good at policing itself, since, like ITW mentioned, all someone (especially a submissive) has to do is yell "red" or "abuse" and the person referenced is almost immediately ostracized, with little to no investigation into the matter. I've seen that happen, too. If anyone has the power within the public scene, it's submissives. No question.

BLoved ignored a link from my local group on Fetlife that I posted from before, but someone was accused of touching someone after she'd said no, and omg holy hell broke loose. And there are lots of stories about certain people where they acted questionably, and really really had to work their way back into peoples' good graces. If anything I think people are too quick to dismiss people.

 

[00Syd]

BLoved ignored a link from my local group on Fetlife that I posted from before, but someone was accused of touching someone after she'd said no, and omg holy hell broke loose. And there are lots of stories about certain people where they acted questionably, and really really had to work their way back into peoples' good graces. If anything I think people are too quick to dismiss people.

Definitely.

 

[intothewoods]

The image that keeps coming to mind from Bloved's posts is that party in Eyes Wide Shut. Total hedonistic anarchy with skewed, fucked up morality. But my reality has been, I played a little with a few different people, met my husband, still played off and on with some friends for a period of time, and then haven't played with anyone else for quite some time now.

My play sessions did not include sex, if that makes a difference. I feel like some types of play can be fun and casual. They're not anywhere near as intimate and meaningful as what happens with my husband, but they're also not dysfunctional spirals of anguish.

During the time I played with others, my relationship continued to grow and function quite nicely. The play sessions just weren't all that fulfilling, and so I stopped. No dysfunctional meltdown, no drama. I just found myself not interested. If I am interested in a few months or a few years, then maybe I'll do it again.

 

[chy_girl]

The Case for Love

Love strengthens self-respect, in the lover and the one loved.

Love respects consent and the lack of consent.

Love tolerates no deception.

Love is patient and thorough.

Love never places a beloved at risk.

Love delights in the sharing of discovery and exploration.

Love needs no previous experience.

Love heals.

Love has meaning, not just for one night, but night after night after ...

Love isn't lonely.

Love is much more than lust.

Love challenges us to be our best, because it demands of us that we care for another as much as we care for ourselves.

As we would not deny ourselves our best, so too do we not deny our best to those we love.

To be our best we must be willing to grow, to learn, to explore and discover, always respecting our selves and each other.

Love offers all of this to those who have the courage to believe in themselves, to respect themselves, to respect others.

Love offers itself to those who turn their backs on Fear.

Love offers itself to those who choose to be what they were born to be.

Human.

-- excerpt from "Casual 'BDSM' and Emtional Abuse: The Case for Love"

A Bloved's BDSM version of 1 Corinthians 13... Does this mean we have our very own netevangelist?

 

[BLoved]

And that person's reputation would precede him within the community, forever after.

We already have evidence of how the casual community handles stalking by one of their own.

Why should we believe they are any more responsible when it comes to rape?

 

[00Syd]

The image that keeps coming to mind from Bloved's posts is that party in Eyes Wide Shut. Total hedonistic anarchy with skewed, fucked up morality.

Seb and I love that scene, and when we are both insanely rich, living in a giant mansion just out of town, we want to throw that party.

But, we're, y'know, perverts

 

[Netzach]

We already have evidence of how the casual community handles stalking by one of their own.

Why should we believe they are any more responsible when it comes to rape?

Are you for real?

That's stalking?

Necromancing a months old post from me to prove a deranged non-point isn't but that is? (for the record neither is)

If I were close enough, I and any other person who has been stalked by someone or anything close would spit in your eye. How dare you?

Oh I get it. A one night stand that disappoints equals rape equals genocide equals real stalking when internet people don't kiss your ass.

 

[intothewoods]

Seb and I love that scene, and when we are both insanely rich, living in a giant mansion just out of town, we want to throw that party.

But, we're, y'know, perverts

The masks freaked me out.