The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[00Syd]

Who do you think you are, Jesus Christ?

Like I said, martyr complex.

 

[Etoile]

A martyr. I called it about two threads ago.

He's so predictable. It's just not fun.

Yeah, but that statement I quoted sound like he REALLY WAS trying to make himself out to be the Second Coming or whatever.

 

[Netzach]

All cultures link intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding.

Only dysfunctional cultures have a surplus of single mothers.

The quickest dip into the most dumbed down examination of anthropology will refute this. Most cultures, reserving judgement on levels of functionality, marry off girls to whomever pays the most for them at an early age, and marriages and partnering is done in service to familial bonds, status, and local politics.

You're not the only person living in a fantasy world when it comes to romantic partnering. Most people don't know how good they have it in the West that it's even an option.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Yeah, but that statement I quoted sound like he REALLY WAS trying to make himself out to be the Second Coming or whatever.

Well, he is an expert in "True Love".

 

[Netzach]

And I say this only because I think it's worth pointing out every time someone tries to paint romantic M/f monogamy picked out of lurrrrve as a natural historical phenom or a worldwide norm.

If you're enjoying that kind of thing, you're pretty lucky you get to pick a guy or girl at all.

 

[CutieMouse]

And I say this only because I think it's worth pointing out every time someone tries to paint romantic M/f monogamy picked out of lurrrrve as a natural historical phenom or a worldwide norm.

If you're enjoying that kind of thing, you're pretty lucky you get to pick a guy or girl at all.

Yeah... soooo much not the norm. We could go into the whole marriage/monogamy/dowery/bride price as institutions to control women's sexuality, but that would be a bit off topic.

 

[BLoved]

Take care! Engage your brains!

Discovering my beloved can stand up for herself, you resort to insult.

How typical of advocates of casual 'bdsm'.

If you can't get people to agree, you condemn them as stupid or in need of therapy.

~smile~

 

[the captians wench]

It appears in different guises. In this thread several have claimed that to learn a new techinique one must turn to an 'expert', a stranger who allegedly knows how to perform the technique safely.

That is another form of "reference".

And as far as I can tell your analysis of the reference concept is spot-on. And there have been several efforts in my past to use my lack of references against me.

I think you and I are getting two different things out of the advice given.

Posters here don't like subsribing to the way you "must" do something. However it has been sujested that some techniques are best learned by seeking the knowledge of some one experienced in said activity.

There are some things that you just can't do safely by reading about them. There are other ways to learn about things, but often it is a good idea to gain the advice of others more experienced. I will probably never experience breath play with Jounar. He's not comfortable trying it because he doesn't have enough knowledge and he would rather not invite some one to deminstrate. I am perfectly fine with this because I respect that he has my safety in mind and I kind of like that he's a bit selfish when it comes to my attention.

However, before we were seriously involved I had very dear friends who were experienced and willing to help a newbie out. I had an interest in knife play. These people were like family to me, and I trusted them enough to try it. Since then I have not experienced this with any one else, because it's not an activity that I feel safe participating in with just anyone. It is something that can be practiced with out needing a live teacher.

You don't have to seek the experience of others, and if your personal values go against it, then cool beans. But we also don't devalue people who do choose to do things that way. It's amazing what is accomplished with you show a little respect and tollerance.

 

[Etoile]

Discovering my beloved can stand up for herself, you resort to insult.

How typical of advocates of casual 'bdsm'.

If you can't get people to agree, you condemn them as stupid or in need of therapy.

~smile~

Kettle, meet pot.

~smile~

Do you think anyone is honestly taking you seriously ... other than your maturity-challenged friends?

 

[BLoved]

Um. No.

Love is not a cure all. It does not heal deep emotional scars. It's at best a band-aid to cover deeper issues. It sits on the surface making you feel good and like all those past issues are magically gone, but deep down those issues are waiting to come to the surface again. If those deeper issues are not taken care of then eventually they will break through the "love" and ruin your relationship. There is a reason people seek third party professionals (whom they don't Love) to help heal those wounds.

i've gotten help from professionals who did SHIT to help me.
I am sorry if this may sound weird but you have caughten me when i am not in the greatest mood. or you could just say im PMSing.

Whatever the case may be.

I am guessing that as a child u were not forced into a tiny room, hit, and yelled at for hours because you took a peice of bread out of the fridge because you were hungry.
I lived the life i wish i never had. But that just means i wouldn't be who i am today.

No if i had a somewhat normal life i am sure i would end up like most fools on here. Going around saying shit about people thats not true. What sort of life is that?

If a perfessional could only understand the pain a person can go through at such a young age then maybe i would take comfort in one again. But after having 3 therapists and 2 psychologist examine me, and tell me that i am fine, and perfectly normal. After telling them some of the things i had went through. Because i thought i was doing the best thing by protecting my parents.

Well maybe i would feel best with them behind bars, but what would that say about me?
How could i live knowing that i put them away, and sent my brother into care?
What sort of daughter would i be if i did that? What sort of sister would i be if i just let my brother suffer through this, and be taken away at such a young age, never to see his family again? How could i do that?

If you have to put that much weight into love in order to free yourself from past issues then you are turning a blind eye to deeper problems that will continue to hurt you and others in the future.

what weight am i putting into love?
my past issues are things that i am dealing with. I am not turning a blind eye to the problems, because obviously they are still there and they aren't going anywhere until dealt with but i don't need professional help to do that.

You can "Love" an abuse victim as much as you want, but that still won't stop them from flinching when you go to give them a hug.

And that whole response, to me, has the potential for an, 'it's ok if he hits me because he loves me' outcome.

Just because I stand up for myself, and what i believe in, and how i choose to live my life, and because my VEIWS on BDSM are not the same as yours or many on here. Are those your reasons for telling me that i need "help"?

Cause those are just stupid and come from immature people who really don't give a shit about anyone else.

What makes you think that i am in the 'its ok if he hits me because he loves me' situation.
Its obvious that you can't see the two sides to every story. Much the same for most people on here.

Where does it give you the right to push me down and say that i need therapy. Or maybe its you who needs to speak to someone.

 

[CutieMouse]

Just because I stand up for myself, and what i believe in, and how i choose to live my life, and because my VEIWS on BDSM are not the same as yours or many on here. Are those your reasons for telling me that i need "help"?

Cause those are just stupid and come from immature people who really don't give a shit about anyone else.

Its obvious that you can't see the two sides to every story. Much the same for most people on here.

Where does it give you the right to push me down and say that i need therapy. Or maybe its you who needs to speak to someone.

Umm... actually, BL has spent quite a bit of energy telling anyone on this board who doesn't agree with him 100% that they need "help" for not having the same views re: BDSM/love/relationships as he does. He hasn't shown one bit of grace, kindness or understanding to those who see things differently - even those (such as myself) who are in relationships sharing similar values re: respect, communication, monogamy, etc (minus the 'til death do us part bit).

Does that mean BL is stupid and immature and doesn't give a shit about anyone else?

I'm sorry you had such bad experiences with professional therapy; I know how difficult it can be to find a good therapist - the good ones are few and far between and worth their weight in gold. I still do not believe "Love" is enough to help one overcome a history of genuine abuse.*

I also am of the opinion that allowing someone who grew up in the atmosphere you describe to return to that environment (especially alone) to be extremely dangerous, risky, abusive, and highly improper.

*Background (recognizing BL will utilize this to excuse/defend his theories and label me a broken emotionally crippled individual...)- my mother is bipolar, borderline personality disorder, delusional (diagnosed when I was 15); my father abandoned me at 17. I broke off all contact with my parents 11 years ago; I maintain minimal contact with my sister. I am sorry you were abused; I am sorrier that you continue to put yourself in harms way. Being biologically related to someone does not obligate me to place myself in harms way (emotionally, mentally or physically).

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

i've gotten help from professionals who did SHIT to help me.
I am sorry if this may sound weird but you have caughten me when i am not in the greatest mood. or you could just say im PMSing.

Whatever the case may be.

I am guessing that as a child u were not forced into a tiny room, hit, and yelled at for hours because you took a peice of bread out of the fridge because you were hungry.
I lived the life i wish i never had. But that just means i wouldn't be who i am today.

No if i had a somewhat normal life i am sure i would end up like most fools on here. Going around saying shit about people thats not true. What sort of life is that?

If a perfessional could only understand the pain a person can go through at such a young age then maybe i would take comfort in one again. But after having 3 therapists and 2 psychologist examine me, and tell me that i am fine, and perfectly normal. After telling them some of the things i had went through. Because i thought i was doing the best thing by protecting my parents.

If you went to 5 professionals and told them about:

I moved out when i was 15, because my dads a drunk and my mom is abusive. the two of them together was the worst abuse i have ever taken on. Constant harrassment, insults, beatings, slavery, etc. I will not get into much detail about this because it is still hard to go through.
They basically had their thumb on me for most of my life, and i am starting to learn to break through it.

And if they didn't help you, then they need to have their licenses revoked.

I'm a little hesitant to believe that 5 professionals thought you were fine after years of abuse at any early age.

I'm sure it's possible, but.

Well maybe i would feel best with them behind bars, but what would that say about me?
How could i live knowing that i put them away, and sent my brother into care?
What sort of daughter would i be if i did that? What sort of sister would i be if i just let my brother suffer through this, and be taken away at such a young age, never to see his family again? How could i do that?

I would hope your parents are not inflicting the same abuse on your brother.

If they are, then I would think removing him from your parents would be in his best interest. And I would do everything in my power to make that happened.

what weight am i putting into love?

So the past means nothing, because Love is encouraging me to change for the best. There was nothing wrong with me that Love couldn't fix. I may have my ups and downs, but Robert will always be at my side, through the good and the bad times.
The 2 months that Robert and I have known eachother, both of us have grown with love for one another, and that love has freed me of my chains that my parents and ex had around me.

This.

i don't need professional help to do that.

And I'm guessing "Love" will cure all.

Just because I stand up for myself, and what i believe in, and how i choose to live my life, and because my VEIWS on BDSM are not the same as yours or many on here. Are those your reasons for telling me that i need "help"?

Cause those are just stupid and come from immature people who really don't give a shit about anyone else.

What makes you think that i am in the 'its ok if he hits me because he loves me' situation.
Its obvious that you can't see the two sides to every story. Much the same for most people on here.

Where does it give you the right to push me down and say that i need therapy. Or maybe its you who needs to speak to someone.

Just my opinion.

~smile~

 

[BLoved]

BLoved: Why do you care about other people?

It was the way I was raised.

I recall a man coming to the door of our home when I was six, begging for food. My mom gave him a bowl of soup and bread, which he ate at the foot of the stairs.

Cubs and scouts reinforced what I'd learned.

I was taught those who have the power to help others have an obligation to do so. I still believe that.

My power is in my words, and my willingness to be demonized so as to share those words with people who might benefit from them.

Who do you think you are, Jesus Christ?

So I have to believe I'm Jesus Christ to be willing to help people?

 

[CutieMouse]

So I have to believe I'm Jesus Christ to be willing to help people?

No, but you sure as hell believe in proselytizing.

 

[Etoile]

So I have to believe I'm Jesus Christ to be willing to help people?

No, of course not. However expressing things like this:
My power is in my words, and my willingness to be demonized so as to share those words with people who might benefit from them.

Sure makes it sound like you think you are Christ himself. That's all I'm saying.

 

[unregistered]

 

[BLoved]

It's amazing what is accomplished with you show a little respect and tollerance.

I believe I have great respect for their humanity, so much so that I am willing to be direct and honest with them.

I believe I have great tolerance for those who are dysfunctional. I do not seek to silence them. Indeed, quite often what they say demonstrates the dysfunctions I describe far more clearly than my words.

 

[BLoved]

No, of course not. However expressing things like this:
My power is in my words, and my willingness to be demonized so as to share those words with people who might benefit from them.

Sure makes it sound like you think you are Christ himself. That's all I'm saying.

~shrug~

And why should the way you perceive me be my issue?

If it makes you feel smug and comfortable to think of me as having a messiah complex, who am I to deny you your delusions.

Curious tho', that the one accusing me of delusions should delude herself so publicly.

 

[BLoved]

No, but you sure as hell believe in proselytizing.

You mean sharing information, as opposed to those who seek to disrupt discussions and censor writers.

 

[celticsunspiral]

So you are trying to convert me and you are frustrated to discover you are not succeeding.

~smile~

Would it help to know I am not trying to convert anyone, and that is why I feel neither frustration nor unsuccessful.

I am satisfied to share my point of view and leave it to the readers to decide for themselves what makes sense and what doesn't.

Apparently, that is not enough for you.

No, I am for freedom of speech, and you have a right to your own opinion. But to label an entire community across continents in a negative way based on your limited experience is wrong. Wouldn't it be more prudent to say that you have a problem with the casual BDSM community and your own personal morals, than to basically say that everyone that does not share your ideals is WRONG and that they are in abusive relationships. Isn't this how prejudices start?

Everyone of us has warned or been warned about that person who really shouldn't be at a munch or sounds to good to be true. If I was a complete new submissive your rhetoric might scare me away from some of the best experiences I have had. The BDSM community does not need anymore bad press and that is what I see your writings as.

I am sorry for those who have wound up hurt physically and/or mentally. I have been there myself in vanilla and in BDSM related relationships. I have learned and become a stronger person because of these experiences. BUT THEY WERE NOT JUST IN BDSM RELATIONSHIPS! If I didn't listen when red flags popped up whose fault is it but my own.

I just ask that before you lable a bunch of alot of people, you do not personally know, that youthink about what you are stating!

 

[CutieMouse]

You mean sharing information, as opposed to those who seek to disrupt discussions and censor writers.

Oh for the love of Pete!

Every time I have tried to meet you halfway, you've told me my views on the subject are wrong, abusive, blahblahblah... you are incapable of even contemplating that there are people in the world who have long term committed relationships, similar in manner re: respect, communication, esteem, honor, etc as you - without classifying them as "True Love".

Have I prevented you from expressing your opinion? No. In fact I've repeatedly stated my opinion that you should be able to express your opinion here as much as you like.

Have I disagreed with your assumptions re: relationships? Yes. We hold similar yet different views on the subject at hand. I will continue to state my belief that people are capable of having caring, close, emotionally healthy relationships without the whole 'til death do us part True Love thing. I will continue to state my belief that bad things can happen even in long term relationships.

I suppose we may eventually just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Etoile]

~shrug~

And why should the way you perceive me be my issue?

If it makes you feel smug and comfortable to think of me as having a messiah complex, who am I to deny you your delusions.

Curious tho', that the one accusing me of delusions should delude herself so publicly.

Again with the insults? Not too classy.

 

[rida]

Anyone requested more "logicgasms"?

I believe that's me.

Perhaps english is not your native tongue.

For the record, it is not my native tongue.

Congratulations, you've invalidated denial.

I, on the other hand, view behaviour as symptomatic of motive.

Measured against what standard?

Red flag because I have the integrity and courage of my convictions to argue in public the danger of casual 'bdsm'?

That is an interesting way of measuring 'maturity'.

No, I didn't invalidated denial. The operative word here is "can".
I have however invalidate your ability to claim to know EXACTLY each and every one motives and reasons and background history.

And if "behavior is symptomatic of motive" I can tell you that the timing of your appearance on this boards, with your god complex & martyr complex is highly suspicious.

Why didn't you come to help and warn the newbies a couple months ago? Before you had found your beloved?

Of course, doing it now, in the highly antagonistic way you are going about, helps give more credit to the fact that you are the only honest PYL, the only one that is all about Love, the only one that has the pyl's interest at heart. Of course the fact that we do not agree with you 100% (since you conveniently ignore or twist and refuse the parts we agree with you on) could be viewed as your way of proving (to your beloved) that indeed she is better off ignoring what everybody else will tell her.

As you do not have any proof to accuse anyone to be "dysfunctional", "unhealthy" and "abusive", I have no proof nor desire to accuse you of being a predator and manipulator.

I'm just pointing out, for sake of safety for the novices that are perhaps following this thread, that trying to paint everybody but yourself as the only one with good intentions toward them, as the only one that really cares and loves them, and trying to discredit each and every opposite or even less than agreeing voice (what you are actually accusing the boards to be doing, BTW), is a behavior often used by predators to groom in their victims and separate them from anybody else.

And how likely is that to go undetected through extensive conversation and dating?

How likely is that to go undetected when looking for something casual?

Transient affairs do not get nearly the attention to detail that a life-long commitment gets.

If the predator is good and highly skilled, it will not matter as he will make sure to present himself as meeting the exact expectations of his/her prey, whether they are casual or life long.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Careful, your dysfunctional attitude towards love is showing.

If that is how you wish to define love, then I can only say it is a poor excuse compared to the real thing.

Perhaps one day you will experience the real thing and then you will know the difference.

You've made a liar out of your girlfriend who said that you both respect other people's choices and views.

 

[chy_girl]

All cultures link intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding.

Only dysfunctional cultures have a surplus of single mothers.

Awesome.

Now I'm extra dysfunctional because I divorced my husband of 12 years.
*snip*

So does that mean I'm doubly extra-special dysfunctional because I'm a single parent to kids I've not birthed? And have no genetic tie to them or their parents? Or even know their parents?

*snip*
My beloved is more into breath-play and outdoor bondage (though I must point out that we are still at the beginning of our mutual exploration and I'd be surprised if we do not find other things to share).

Hope the Boy Scouts taught quick release knots and the finer aspects of dangerous play.

It would suck if a rope was on a little wrong and caused a stroke-inducing blood clot. Or the blood in the carotid artery was accidentally restricted during breath play resulting in brain damage.

i've gotten help from professionals who did SHIT to help me.
I am sorry if this may sound weird but you have caughten me when i am not in the greatest mood. or you could just say im PMSing.

Whatever the case may be.

I am guessing that as a child u were not forced into a tiny room, hit, and yelled at for hours because you took a peice of bread out of the fridge because you were hungry.
I lived the life i wish i never had. But that just means i wouldn't be who i am today.

No if i had a somewhat normal life i am sure i would end up like most fools on here. Going around saying shit about people thats not true. What sort of life is that?

If a perfessional could only understand the pain a person can go through at such a young age then maybe i would take comfort in one again. But after having 3 therapists and 2 psychologist examine me, and tell me that i am fine, and perfectly normal. After telling them some of the things i had went through. Because i thought i was doing the best thing by protecting my parents.

Let's just not play the who was abused worse game. It's sophomoric, ignorant and no one ever wins because there is always someone with a worse story than yours.

As for the therapist factor: I had 9 in 4 years who provided varying degrees of help. And I mean varying from damn near killed me to was almost trust worthy. And then I grew up, and sought the advice of someone I trusted, and after one thing led to another I spend for years in therapy with a woman who provided massive amounts of support and help. But it required massive amounts of honesty on my part, and massive amounts of work on my part. It wasn't her job to "fix" me, it was her job to help me learn and grow past my demons. And there was no "Love" involved in that. Simple respect and positive regard was plenty.

Now for the "Going around saying shit about people thats not true" thing... Did you not notice that when you were expounding the virtues of your relationship you listed nearly everything I did about my relationship with my People? Don't you find it a little odd that I'm unethical, unlovable, etc., etc., etc., because I use the word "affection" instead of "Love" but you're the poor, victimized little subbie who needs her PYL to "save" her? Falling a bit under that "saying shit about people that's not true" thing isn't it?

And simply for the sake of defining insanity and wishing on rainbows, let me try again:

Who ever said I'm not good enough to love?!?

Everyone is "good enough" to love. That doesn't mean my Mistress and Sir Love me or that I Love my Mistress and Sir. But there are many other aspects that are just as important, if not more so, than "Love" in our relationship. Things such as caring regard, respect of the individual as well as the various personal boundaries, shared interests, friendship, acknowledgment of personal responsibility to the relationship, open and honest communication, a willingness to learn and expand, and affection. On top of which, we actually like each other.

So they view you as good enough to beat, but not good enough for them to love you.

There. Went ahead and put back in the part you forgot to include. You know, the part about having things like respect, positive regard, communication, friendship and affection.

And I am absolutely delighted to say that they DO find me good enough to beat on a regular basis. Which is actually quite the complement for a pain slut, given how heavy handed Mistress can be.

Finding someone willing to beat you while not loving you is a compliment?

If that is what it takes to make you feel special then nothing I say will make a difference.

It is still my opinion that a healthy individual places more value upon him/herself than that.

Now, let me toss out an idea that just might startle your neat little world... I'm like pain. A lot. One way that Mistress and Sir reward my services/good behavior/personal growth is with impact play. So yes, I'm absolutely de-fucking-lighted when they find me pleasing enough to beat on me... which is often... And surprisingly enough, they do so with the utmost care for me physically as well as emotionally... Something about "Don't break the toys."

But thank you for your opinions and insights. I'll be sure to treat them with the same deference and respect that you've shown the opinions of others here.