Rape, Violence and Terorism

[SEVERUSMAX]

violent and non violent rape. Is there a right of lethal self-defense in the latter case? Is it a crime to kill a rapist?

[start]
Beauty queen aids condemned woman
Behind petition to save Iranian Teenager killed
attempted rapist

Apr. 14, 2006. 01:00 AM

PHINJO GOMBU
STAFF REPORTER, Toronto Star.


A Canadian beauty queen is behind a growing online petition to save a young Iranian woman who has been sentenced to death for killing an attempted rapist.

It's been just two weeks since Nazanin Afshin-Jam, 26, began publicizing the plight of an 18-year-old who is known only by her first name — also Nazanin. The petition has already garnered more than 13,000 signatures from around the world.

Afshin-Jam, who represented Canada and was runner-up in the 2003 Miss World contest in China, says getting involved was personal for her.

She left Iran with her family when she was a year old after her father was nearly beaten to death by revolutionary guards. She said the story of the other Nazanin, sent to her by a fan, just touched her.

"It was really shocking to me to hear that a woman and at such a young age especially, defending herself from three rapists, ends up being treated as the criminal," Afshin-Jam said yesterday.

Nazanin's story, which is the subject of an urgent action alert by Amnesty International, dates back to January when she was sentenced to death by a court in the city of Karaj, 160 kilometres northwest of the capital Tehran.

The sentence came after Nazanin, who was 17 at time, admitted stabbing to death one of the three men who attempted to rape her and her 16-year-old niece in a park.

"That really, really bothered me," said Afshin-Jam. "I said to myself: That could have been me. That could have been my fate.

"If I was still in Iran, I would have done exactly the same thing. I would have defended myself in the same way, had I had a knife."

In the past few days, Afshin-Jam, an aspiring pop singer who hopes to release an album this year, said she and a group of friends have been trying to contact Nazanin's lawyer.

She said they are cautious about governments getting involved to ask for clemency because it might provoke the Iranian government. She hopes pleas from ordinary people around the world will sway the Iranian authorities. [end]
//

Self-defense is good. Vigilante killing is something else. Rape is not, and never should be, a capital crime.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Self-defense is good. Vigilante killing is something else. Rape is not, and never should be, a capital crime.

This was clearly a case of Nazanin defending herself and her niece, and I think she was comletely justified for using lethal force. As for rape being a capital crime, in Iran they would probably convict the victim for "enticing the men by being female" or some such crazy idea. There are actually some in the US who would hold a similar opinion, but no sane person.

 

[Guest]

. . . . .

 

[Pure]

note to sev

Self-defense is good. Vigilante killing is something else. Rape is not, and never should be, a capital crime.

Non-aggravated (w/o weapons, death threats, etc.) rape of course should not be a capital crime (in a court). Yet, depending on the degree of violence and threat experienced, I believe 'self defense' will justify a probably lethal act by the intended victim. This 'capital' consequence being a separate, legal issue. It's particularly to be noted, for these Islamic countries, that the victims who makes less than extreme and even life sacrificing efforts are going to be subject to a death penalty for fornication/adultery or informal death sentence for dishonoring the family.


The same applies to burglary: This shouldn't have a death sentence in court, but if an armed person is coming through my bedroom window and does not stop, withdraw and/or disarm immediately upon a warning, then I believe it's justifiable self defense to shoot him.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Self-defense is good. Vigilante killing is something else. Rape is not, and never should be, a capital crime.

Non-aggravated (w/o weapons, death threats, etc.) rape of course should not be a capital crime (in a court). Yet, depending on the degree of violence and threat experienced, I believe 'self defense' will justify a probably lethal act by the intended victim. This 'capital' consequence being a separate, legal issue. It's particularly to be noted, for these Islamic countries, that the victims who makes less than extreme and even life sacrificing efforts are going to be subject to a death penalty for fornication/adultery or informal death sentence for dishonoring the family.


The same applies to burglary: This shouldn't have a death sentence in court, but if an armed person is coming through my bedroom window and does not stop, withdraw and/or disarm immediately upon a warning, then I believe it's justifiable self defense to shoot him.

If you paid attention, you would notice that I made a distinction between self-defense and vigilantism. Anyone who really knows me knows that I am very much in favor of the right of self-defense for both sexes.

 

[Liar]

This was clearly a case of Nazanin defending herself and her niece, and I think she was comletely justified for using lethal force. As for rape being a capital crime, in Iran they would probably convict the victim for "enticing the men by being female" or some such crazy idea. There are actually some in the US who would hold a similar opinion, but no sane person.

In many cases yes, they might convict both. The rapist for being, well, a rapist. The victim for having sex out of her marriage (or having sex unmarried).

 

[sweetnpetite]

As for what individual women can do to prevent rape, the only things I can suggest is to avoid dangerous situations and know something about self-defense. This isn't blaming the victim; this is just normal precaution. Tell your children to refrain from accepting candy from strangers. This isn't telling them to dislike candy; it is telling them to be careful. Women, as a group can't really do much, except to advise what is safe and what isn't.

Individual men can do nothing. An individual can't stop some thug from climbing into some woman's window beating and and raping her. If he can prevent it, he should, and virtually all men will, but usually they would have no knowledge of it. Men as a group can do no more than women as a group.

Except, of course, that Society, as a whole can do a lot about it. Pass very strict laws against rape and enforce them. Keep rapists in prison until they are old and feeble and no longer a danger to anybody.

I still say, at risk of being flamed, there are two kinds of rape. There is the violent rape, often accompanied by other injuries, that is done by a man as an act of misogyny. The sex is just a means of punishing the woman, as representative of all women. Violent rapists should never be released from prison. Date rape is a horny guy who doesn't realize that his girlfriend is not in the mood. I don't want to make light of date rape but it can hardly be compared to violent rape.

I would say that you are wrong on all counts!

1) avoiding dangerous situations- MOST rapes (like most crimes) are committed by people that the victim knows. Not by being in a dangerous situation! Staying away from so called "dangerous situations" would not prevent the majority of rapes. The idea is supported by the wrong idea that most rapes are perpetuated by strangers jumping out and attacking women who behave foolishly or unsafely. This is just factually wrong!!!! therefore, avoiding dangerous situations doesn't even address the problem... and I'd like to say that most women are more than cautious enough to the point of being afraid and limited... which IS the problem. rape and the fear of it is being used as a tool to control and limit women when in fact the majority of women who are raped weren't engaged in so called risky behavior and the majority of women involved in "risky behavior" aren't raped!!!

2) children too are more likely to be hurt by family members than by strangers handing out candy. also, kids will talk to strangers when you're not looking no matter what you tell them. a better way to keep children safe is to make sure that they have adults that they can trust and feel safe and comfortable talking too and who will believe them. children are hurt by people they know and who are trusted and feel at fault and/or have no one to turn to.

3) individual men CAN do something about it... individuals are the only people who can do anything, really. individual men usually commit rape so the first thing they can do is not rape women. they can educate, they can mentor, they can support and respect women.... they can do so much.

4) passing stricter laws and enforcing them will not solve the problem, it is after the fact. attitudes and actions need to change... children need to be raised with respect for women and for themselves... abusers are usually people who've been abused... chains of violence must be broken.

5) 'date rape' is still violent, still an act of misogyny, and still an act of control, punishment, and still an act of objectifying and impersonalizing the individual woman.. It is not about horny men any more than spouse abuse is about angry husbands who are somehow less violent than assault by a stranger.

most rapes are date or aquantance rapes and they are a profound violation of trust and personhood. the scars of rape are physical, emotional and psychological. they are not less so because it was a man you know or dated. the concept of date rape was created to help people realize that a man does not have the right to violate you because you know him and have consented to have him buy you dinner.

the epidemic of rape in this country is NOT stranger rape... therefor the solution does not and can not rely on ignoring the VERY REAL problem of people being victimized by horny guys who do not respect women.

I wish I were feeling more articulate, but this is the best I've got right now. The first step in preventing and reducing rape (or any crime) is UNDERSTANDING THE PROBLEM.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Sweet Jesu,

Rape is not about sex, it is about power, it is about control and it is about hurting another for your own gratification. There is and never has been an excuse for it. There is and never has been a justification for it.

Cat

Well put, Cat.

 

[xssve]

Well, amicus is right for once, poor impulse control does lead to a lot of criminal acts, including the bulk of conservative politics, these days, but it's no excuse,

In may ways, men are not encouraged or taught to control their impulses when it comes to women - and even some women encourage this - I hate to quote a commercial, especially a beer commercial, but "there's a fine line between romance and stalking...".

Sexual politics is complicated stuff, especially when it comes to this area, the fact is that men often cannot always read women's signals well, we lost any biological normative when women lost estrus, compensation via socialization of common body language can be pretty specific to a particular population, thus, very few universal signals have evolved - other than those typically employed by streetwalkers, and they're well... streetwalkers.

And it cuts both ways: some men are as oblivious to a come on as others are to a wave off.

Naturally, it's equally complicated form the other side, come on too strong, you're "a slut", too distant, you're "a bitch", either one can be construed by a man with poor impulse control to be "asking for it", so back to square one - do you want a "real man" who takes what he want's, or a gentleman?

Do you even know?

And no, I'm not saying it's "your fault" - I can always back off and jack off - even if that lowers your opinion of me, I'll usually err on the side of reason - but do work on those signals - "Blueballs" are not a joke, it's actually pretty goddamned painful, and can damage your prostate.

Again, as amicus suggests, typically, participation in foreplay is a pretty strong positive signal, whereas biting, kicking and screaming is fairly indicative of a negative reaction, but even this is not written in stone - women often back out at the last second, as you're sliding into home base, and some women who fight back will taunt you for not "finishing what you started" - yes, human behavior is that fucking complex.

If I have gleaned correctly, the most common female response to rape is actually silence and acquiescence, i.e., "freeze" in the freeze, fight or flee response matrix - this may actually be an evolutionary response designed to prevent worse damage, and I believe even the experts suggest riding it out and doing damage control later, on the theory that it's better than getting severely beaten or killed.

Again, for myself, even in the midst of a passionate struggle, I'll usually take a quick time out and make sure everything is copacetic - I've been with women who have been raped, and there's no telling what might trigger a negative reaction, it's a PTSD issue - with one girl it was the sight of a roll duct tape on my nightstand, in the midst of a full on makeout, and we'd already had sex the night before - she went fucking nuts, gave me a black eye.

Again, I don't know what exactly anybody can do about it, other than work on those signals, and encourage impulse control - i.e., if you do like it rough, then you need to use a little art there.

For me, it gotten so I really don't even want anything to do with an inexperienced woman who doesn't know how to get what she wants, one way or the other, it's a fucking game of Russian Roulette otherwise.

 

[xssve]

And lest you think I'm defending men, fuck those assholes - I had Two friends raped and killed, fucker picked them up right off Central in Albuquerque, outside the Frontier, right after they'd refused my offer to walk them home.

Held a knife to ones throat, made the other get in, drove them out to the East mountains, raped both of them, then stabbed them both multiple times. One died, he broke the knife off in her chest, the other survived only because the temperature was around Forty, and the cold slowed her metabolism enough to keep her from bleeding out before some hikers found her.

I was really sweet on that girl, but she ain't too into men anymore, especially not after his family started harassing her 'cause their little boy got life in Santa Fe.

Now, women think it's creepy when I insist on walking them home.

Also, for what it's worth, even in the military, you're not supposed to go out alone, it's called the buddy system, you can get written up for being out in town without a partner depending on local conditions.

 

[sweetnpetite]

This silly "date rape isn't really rape" theory is just a variation on the 'boys will be boys' defense.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

'Cause rape is rape and no means no. End of discussion.

 

[al_Ussa]

Self-defense is good. Vigilante killing is something else. Rape is not, and never should be, a capital crime.

I think this is the big difference in culture and religion here. For those of you in the west, YOU may not view rape as something worth the death penalty. We, on the other hand, would beg to disagree. We love and cherish our women, and anyone who would harm our wives, mothers, sisters, daughters and friends deserves no mercy.

Rape is not a crime of passion. I know that's somewhat cliched to say, but its true. Rape is a crime of violence, of control. And while you may view yourself as "kind" and "humane" by trying to show clemency to such monsters, they deserve nothing from you beyond a swift death. Would you want such monsters walking the streets?

I can not condone vigilante killing, but state imposed death penalty for rapists is something else. Provided that they are convicted on solid evidence of course. I am proud to say that many Muslim countries DO execute rapists. Thats more than I can say for many western countries, where such monsters are oft times let out before serving their entire sentences.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I think this is the big difference in culture and religion here. For those of you in the west, YOU may not view rape as something worth the death penalty. We, on the other hand, would beg to disagree. We love and cherish our women, and anyone who would harm our wives, mothers, sisters, daughters and friends deserves no mercy.

Rape is not a crime of passion. I know that's somewhat cliched to say, but its true. Rape is a crime of violence, of control. And while you may view yourself as "kind" and "humane" by trying to show clemency to such monsters, they deserve nothing from you beyond a swift death. Would you want such monsters walking the streets?

I can not condone vigilante killing, but state imposed death penalty for rapists is something else. Provided that they are convicted on solid evidence of course. I am proud to say that many Muslim countries DO execute rapists. Thats more than I can say for many western countries, where such monsters are oft times let out before serving their entire sentences.

And then go on to repeat their crimes.

Of course, there are some Muslim countries where the woman is the one condemned to death for the rape, not the man. I don't understand that, at all.