Rape, Violence and Terorism

[cloudy]

I don't think the two are very comparable. Date rape would involve a man and a woman who are both straight, or maybe bi. It would almost always come after a lot of kissing and petting and other foreplay. If I were doing this sort of thing with a bi-sexual male friend, we would both know the other wanted to have sex. Probably neither of us would actually ask the other if he wanted to have sex because it would be a foregone conclusion. Exactly what kind of sex would have to be decided between us.

Have you ever been coy or played hard to get? Have you ever pretended to be not interested in a guy when you actually were? Unfortunately, this kind of thing is a fairly common practice with women, and men know it.

Conversely, have you ever gotten a guy to do something he didn't want to do? Have you ever dragged him onto a dance floor when he didn't really want to dance? Have you ever nagged him into taking you someplace he didn't want to go, or into doing something he didn't want to go? Maybe such things should be a form of date rape.

I'm going with what yui said. You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.

 

[oggbashan]

Police Cautions for Rape

There is a debate in the UK about the police using the Caution procedure for Rape.

Apparently there have been about 40 cautions in recent years for rape. Some are saying that the Caution procedure should NEVER be used for rape despite the low conviction rates of those cases that get to trial, and the percentage that get to court is already low.

If an offender is cautioned, he has admitted the crime, and is therefore guilty. The victim has not had to testify in court nor had to face cross-examination.

The cautioned person is recorded on the sex offenders' register for two years (instead of for life that would follow a conviction for rape in court).

The powers-that-be are being reluctant to divulge details of those cautioned, probably with good reason. A caution is a punishment and if those cautioned were to be identified, they and their victims might face media harrassment.

One case has been identified. A man now in his late 70s had consensual sex with his sister when she was under 16 and he was 16. But a girl under 16 cannot 'consent' in law. He was cautioned. What purpose would it serve anyone to take such a case to trial?

If, today, a boy has consensual sex, and it is his 16th birthday, with a girl whose 16th birthday is tomorrow - in English law he is guilty of rape because she isn't of age to give consent. Tomorrow - he won't be, because she too will be 16 and capable of giving consent. Yesterday, it wouldn't have been rape because neither can consent. If the girl is forced to have sex - then it is rape however old the boy and girl are.

If a man, or youth over 16, has consensual sex with a girl whom he believes to be 16; she tells him she is 16 or 17 and produces 'evidence' that she is - but she isn't - then by English law he has committed rape. How does a 17 year old boy tell when a 15 year old girl is lying about her age?

Rape is a uniquely horrible crime. But classifying sexual activity between consenting people as 'rape' when there was no intention to force the woman/girl to do anything against her will - makes conviction for the real crime more difficult.

What about the lying 15 year-old girl who deliberately seduces the 16 year-old boy? She has seduced him to commit rape. If her parents find out they may want the boy prosecuted with the full vigour of the law - for something HE didn't want to do, but she did.

False accusations of rape are not unknown in domestic dispute cases because the woman knows that such an accusation is as difficult to disprove as it is to prove. Any woman who uses a false rape accusation as a weapon in an argument with her partner is making life even harder for the woman who HAS been raped.

Og

 

[Pure]

agreed, Colly: the sexual past should generally be excluded, unless of some special relevance (decided by the judge in chambers); an exception might be instances of having lied in court or made false accusations.

--note to ogg: the 'cautions' are a similar idea to that i presented above; more certain penalties, but lesser, --is arguably the way to go for noncomplicated cases.

 

[SeaCat]

Somehow I think that my views on this subject do not need to be repeated here. I stand by my views and am willing to pay the consequences for them if the need arises.

Cat

 

[oggbashan]

Colly,

The procedure in English courts is changing.

The victim's sexual past is considered irrelevant. The defence would only be likely to bring it up if she had made false rape accusations. Otherwise the jury (and probably the judge) would assume that the line of defence was one of last resort - i.e. the defendant was guilty and wanted to make his victim suffer too.

Defendants who refused representation by counsel and acted for themselves have been slapped down by judges for trying to humiliate the victim in court.

The problem of low conviction rates still remains. Basically it is one person's word against another's and juries know that a rape conviction will ruin the whole of the defendant's life. The burden of proof is supposed to be 'beyond reasonable doubt'. In a rape case juries have expected a higher level of proof and the nature of rape cases means that a balance of probabilities is all that can be proven.

As I said before, the problem of low conviction rates doesn't have an easy solution.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly,

The procedure in English courts is changing.

The victim's sexual past is considered irrelevant. The defence would only be likely to bring it up if she had made false rape accusations. Otherwise the jury (and probably the judge) would assume that the line of defence was one of last resort - i.e. the defendant was guilty and wanted to make his victim suffer too.

Defendants who refused representation by counsel and acted for themselves have been slapped down by judges for trying to humiliate the victim in court.

The problem of low conviction rates still remains. Basically it is one person's word against another's and juries know that a rape conviction will ruin the whole of the defendant's life. The burden of proof is supposed to be 'beyond reasonable doubt'. In a rape case juries have expected a higher level of proof and the nature of rape cases means that a balance of probabilities is all that can be proven.

As I said before, the problem of low conviction rates doesn't have an easy solution.

Og

I don't expect it to get any better Ogs. It's a man's world. Men wrote the rules and those rules favor them. For better or for worse, if you're a rape victim, you probably don't stand much of a chance of seeing justice done.

 

[yui]

I don't think the two are very comparable. Date rape would involve a man and a woman who are both straight, or maybe bi. It would almost always come after a lot of kissing and petting and other foreplay. If I were doing this sort of thing with a bi-sexual male friend, we would both know the other wanted to have sex. Probably neither of us would actually ask the other if he wanted to have sex because it would be a foregone conclusion. Exactly what kind of sex would have to be decided between us.

Just for the record, Box, so you don't continue to misunderstand the term:

"Date rape is no different from "regular" rape, except the victim knows her rapist. The crime can be perpetrated by friends, partners, acquaintances, or dates. It's important to remember that it doesn't matter if you know your rapist or not. If it's done without your consent, then it's rape, and it's a felony."

Have you ever been coy or played hard to get? Have you ever pretended to be not interested in a guy when you actually were? Unfortunately, this kind of thing is a fairly common practice with women, and men know it.

So, you are saying, if I have done any of these things, then it's okay for a man of my acquaintance to rape me? That's all it takes to justify rape in your mind? Just askin' ....

Conversely, have you ever gotten a guy to do something he didn't want to do? Have you ever dragged him onto a dance floor when he didn't really want to dance? Have you ever nagged him into taking you someplace he didn't want to go, or into doing something he didn't want to go? Maybe such things should be a form of date rape.

And converse to your conversely, have you ever gotten a woman to go to a game she didn't want to go to? Or a party? Or to a car show? Or to a freaking dumb movie that she knew was going to suck? Does this mean you raped her? Just askin’ ....

And to be quite honest, Box, the very fact that you are attempting to compare that to rape is a frightening thing.

I'm going with what yui said. You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.

Hello, sister.

 

[Guest]

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[Norajane]

I remember a grad school colleague (he's now an associate professor at the Univ of Florida) who didn't quite understand this entire issue. We went round and round about sexual harassment and acquaintance rape - I won't share where he is from.

Finally I said - OK. Here's the situation. You've taken her out to dinner and dancing. You've flirted all evening. You want sex, she wants sex. She even told you she wanted sex. You're at one or the other's apartments, clothes are off, you're writhing on the bed and about to penetrate her and then she says STOP.

If you continue it is rape.

You can call her a cocktease, a bitch, a whore, or worse. Fine.

You can piss and bitch and moan that you spent money on this woman (even though you asked her out in the first place) as if that somehow entitles you to get laid. Hire a hooker if you believe you deserve nookie just because you bought her steak and a salad.

But if you decide in your mind she really DOES want to have sex (as if somehow you know her mind better than she does?) And this is after she told you NO and still you hold her down and shove on in, it is rape. And a felony.

And you should be in jail.

Did that clarify the issue for him? Or was there a part of him that was still saying, but...

 

[Guest]

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[R. Richard]

Let me start by saying that I do not support rape.

If some guy grabs a girl off the street and drags her into his car or an alley and rapes her, there is a simple surgical solution that will make sure that it never happens again [both the testicles and the penis.]

I don't buy the argument, "She was dressed way too sexy!" On the other hand, if she is strolling nude down a typical city street, we quickly get into the teasing an animal with meat situation. There needs to be responsibility on both sides.

The law is clear about date rape. However, the situations are not always clear.

In California, a guy talked a girl into having sexual intercourse. He was in her and working when she decided that she didn't want to do it [court record.] They found him guilty, which I do not support.

If a girl says no, I assume she means no. However, some girls can't bring themselves to say yes, so they say "Stop it some more!" [in various forms.] It is very easy for a man to convince himself that the girl really wants it. I would stop, many guys would not. In many cases I put the blame on the girl. Not only is her little game dangerous to herself, it also puts all other girls who date at risk. [I knew of a girl in high school who could not force herself to say yes. So she wore little whore dresses with no underwear. Of course, she got raped. According to the girl, it wouldn't have been so bad if it just happened once, but every time she went out it was rape, rape, rape! The other girls in school had a talk with her, several talks in fact and they were mad as hell! No, wait, it must have been after high school, because the participants had to be over 18.]

What I am driving at here is that a girl should not whisper "no." If she means "no," she needs to say "NO!" [Better yet say "HELL NO!"]

JMNTHO.

 

[Norajane]

I think it did. His brow was still furrowed, but he seemed to be genuinely concerned about knowing what was the appropriate thing to do.

And he is a nice guy.

It is a serious problem in our society when even nice guys are sometimes confused about what exactly is the definition of RAPE.

There are a lot of nice guys out there, good men. I've said stop to both serious boyfriends and guys I hadn't known long, and they weren't confused about it at all. There are a zillion more men like them out there, and I am grateful for it. I hope the ones that might be confused would ask and listen - as your friend did.

 

[SeaCat]

I think it did. His brow was still furrowed, but he seemed to be genuinely concerned about knowing what was the appropriate thing to do.

And he is a nice guy.

It is a serious problem in our society when even nice guys are sometimes confused about what exactly is the definition of RAPE.

Sweet Jesu,

I wasn't going to add more to this thread but this comment got to me.
"It is a serious problem in our society when even nice guys are sometimes confused about what exactly is the definition of rape."

It is very simple. Rape is sex without consent. No means fucking well no! End of story, no sequel.

What part of that is not easily understood?

People will claim there were extenuating circumstances. Huh?

Oh she was drinking. Yeah, and? Did she say no? If she did then guess what sucker.

Oh she was wearing this tight skirt and see through blouse. Yeah, and your point is?

Rape is not about sex, it is about power, it is about control and it is about hurting another for your own gratification. There is and never has been an excuse for it. There is and never has been a justification for it.

In my mind rape is worse than murder. If you kill someone it is all over for them. If you rape someone they have to deal with it for the rest of their lives. If you don't believe me get your ass down to the local battered womens shelter and help out for a day or three. You will then see the results of rape. If after working with the victims of it for a while you still don't believe or understand, then I truly hope you never have to go through it.

Cat

 

[Norajane]

Let me start by saying that I do not support rape.

If some guy grabs a girl off the street and drags her into his car or an alley and rapes her, there is a simple surgical solution that will make sure that it never happens again [both the testicles and the penis.]

I don't buy the argument, "She was dressed way too sexy!" On the other hand, if she is strolling nude down a typical city street, we quickly get into the teasing an animal with meat situation. There needs to be responsibility on both sides.

The law is clear about date rape. However, the situations are not always clear.

In California, a guy talked a girl into having sexual intercourse. He was in her and working when she decided that she didn't want to do it [court record.] They found him guilty, which I do not support.

If a girl says no, I assume she means no. However, some girls can't bring themselves to say yes, so they say "Stop it some more!" [in various forms.] It is very easy for a man to convince himself that the girl really wants it. I would stop, many guys would not. In many cases I put the blame on the girl. Not only is her little game dangerous to herself, it also puts all other girls who date at risk. [I knew of a girl in high school who could not force herself to say yes. So she wore little whore dresses with no underwear. Of course, she got raped. According to the girl, it wouldn't have been so bad if it just happened once, but every time she went out it was rape, rape, rape! The other girls in school had a talk with her, several talks in fact and they were mad as hell! No, wait, it must have been after high school, because the participants had to be over 18.]

What I am driving at here is that a girl should not whisper "no." If she means "no," she needs to say "NO!" [Better yet say "HELL NO!"]

JMNTHO.

When I hear things like this, I still see it as very simple. She said no. He stops right then. THERE IS NO HARM DONE IF HE STOPS WHEN SHE SAYS NO.

Seriously - what's the worst that can happen if he stops when she says no? She won't get off? He won't?

If she was really saying no when she meant yes, then he can tell her right there and then that if she says no, he will stop every time.

 

[Guest]

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[R. Richard]

When I hear things like this, I still see it as very simple. She said no. He stops right then. THERE IS NO HARM DONE IF HE STOPS WHEN SHE SAYS NO.

Seriously - what's the worst that can happen if he stops when she says no? She won't get off? He won't?

If she was really saying no when she meant yes, then he can tell her right there and then that if she says no, he will stop every time.

Norajane:
I do stop when the girl says no and I so stated. I would advise any guy to do the same.

If your last sentence suggests that I use reason and logic with the girls I date, I am offended.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Just for the record, Box, so you don't continue to misunderstand the term:

"Date rape is no different from "regular" rape, except the victim knows her rapist. The crime can be perpetrated by friends, partners, acquaintances, or dates. It's important to remember that it doesn't matter if you know your rapist or not. If it's done without your consent, then it's rape, and it's a felony."

I'm aware that it's a felony but I think it should be a lesser felony than what I have called "violent rape" and you call "regular rape". One is a violent crime while the other results from a misunderstanding. To make an analogy, compare first degree murder with manslaughter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Have you ever been coy or played hard to get? Have you ever pretended to be not interested in a guy when you actually were? Unfortunately, this kind of thing is a fairly common practice with women, and men know it.

So, you are saying, if I have done any of these things, then it's okay for a man of my acquaintance to rape me? That's all it takes to justify rape in your mind? Just askin' ....

No, I am saying that frequently women will say one thing and mean something quite different. If she is saying "We shouldn't be doing this" while helping him remove her panties, should he listen to her her words or go by her actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Conversely, have you ever gotten a guy to do something he didn't want to do? Have you ever dragged him onto a dance floor when he didn't really want to dance? Have you ever nagged him into taking you someplace he didn't want to go, or into doing something he didn't want to go? Maybe such things should be a form of date rape.


And converse to your conversely, have you ever gotten a woman to go to a game she didn't want to go to? Or a party? Or to a car show? Or to a freaking dumb movie that she knew was going to suck? Does this mean you raped her? Just askin’ ....

And to be quite honest, Box, the very fact that you are attempting to compare that to rape is a frightening thing.

No, I haven't. If I asked another person if he or she wanted to do something or go somewhere, and that person said "No" that would be the end of the discussion. I tend to assume that people know their own minds. I am being strictly hypothetical here, by the way; I have never raped anybody, date rape or otherwise, nor will I ever do so.

But I have often been nagged or cajoled into doing things with a woman that I didn't actually want to. That is, taken her places or buying things against my wishes. I didn't feel raped but I certainly felt used at such times.

By the way, if you have ever dragged a guy out onto the dance floor against his wishes, that wold not be rape but, technically, it is abduction, which is also a felony.

 

[SeaCat]

Cat - no argument.

But there are still people out there who have been brought up to believe that a girl owes a guy something after he takes her out to dinner. Seriously.

There are still men out there who feel they deserve it because they asked her out in the first place.

And there are still women out there who have been brought up to believe that this attitude is normal and proper.

That's what I meant when I talked about how screwed up our society was.

Sweet,

I understand what you meant and this is what gets me so upset.

Cat

 

[Colleen Thomas]

When I hear things like this, I still see it as very simple. She said no. He stops right then. THERE IS NO HARM DONE IF HE STOPS WHEN SHE SAYS NO.

Seriously - what's the worst that can happen if he stops when she says no? She won't get off? He won't?

If she was really saying no when she meant yes, then he can tell her right there and then that if she says no, he will stop every time.

It's been a very long time since I had sex with a guy, but as i remember it, past a certain point, he's not going to hear anything you say. It's like a bomber, once th epilot slaves his controls to the bombidier, he's out of the loop till the bombs are dropped.

I do have a problem, if it's consensual right up to the point where he's not really using his head and you suddenly change your mind. I remember my BF and once he hit the home strech, so to speak, Barnham and Baily's could have paraded through the bedroom and he would have been oblivious. I've had lovers who made me orgasm so hard I was no longer really a part of this reality for a time. That's really an iffy call. If she started saying no th eminute he was in, that's one thing, if she got cold feet after he was already past the point of hearing, it's something else again.

From my own experience, I'd feel pretty shafted if I was held criminally liable because I didn't hear my lover say no while I was off in orgasm land. I am not saying you can not change your mind once you've started, but I am saying there is a point past where it's unreasonable to expect your partner to hear, comprehend and respond to the word no. I don't pretnd to know how it is for guys, but I know in my case, past a certain point, I do not hear anything my lover says until my body deals with the more immeidate incoming stimuli.

 

[Guest]

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[R. Richard]

From my own experience, I'd feel pretty shafted if I was held criminally liable because I didn't hear my lover say no while I was off in orgasm land. I am not saying you can not change your mind once you've started, but I am saying there is a point past where it's unreasonable to expect your partner to hear, comprehend and respond to the word no. I don't pretnd to know how it is for guys, but I know in my case, past a certain point, I do not hear anything my lover says until my body deals with the more immeidate incoming stimuli.

Colly:
From psychological studies I have read, many women can be easily distracted even during the sex act itself. Most men can be "distracted" during the sex act itself only by physical intervention. In my own case, I get to a point where events have to be sorted out after the fact, because I am too damn involved to sort them out in real-time. This is unusual, since I normally can deal with events in real-time far better than most.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly:
From psychological studies I have read, many women can be easily distracted even during the sex act itself. Most men can be "distracted" during the sex act itself only by physical intervention. In my own case, I get to a point where events have to be sorted out after the fact, because I am too damn involved to sort them out in real-time. This is unusual, since I normally can deal with events in real-time far better than most.

I just know in my case, when I hit a certain point, all the nos in the world willmake no impression. In my stories, many of my descriptions of orgasm include the kind of mental disconnect I asscoicate with cuming. I really am, not all there, and until I work through the major part of my orgasm, I'm not coming back, no matter who is shouting at me or what they are shouting. Be it no, fire, duk or whatever, I just don't hear and comprehend, much less respond.

If a man or woman has hit that point, it seems unreasonable to me to demand they do the impossible and respond to words that they don't even hear or if they hear, that make no sense.

Simply put, I've cum through police banging on the door. And I mean seriously banging on the door, not some polite knock. If that made no impression until my GF heard them and freaked, I just don't see how it's reasonable to expect anything else to penetrate the haze.

 

[R. Richard]

Cat - no argument.

But there are still people out there who have been brought up to believe that a girl owes a guy something after he takes her out to dinner. Seriously.

There are still men out there who feel they deserve it because they asked her out in the first place.

And there are still women out there who have been brought up to believe that this attitude is normal and proper.

That's what I meant when I talked about how screwed up our society was.

sweetsubsarahh:
I moved into a new town and got a telephone. I apparently got the telephone number of a very recent subscriber. I got a call from the "Arts and Culture" people. They had, once again, spent every penny of their funds from last year and were offering VERY attractive deals to long time subscribers so that they could get enough money to send out flyers. I bought the whole season's tickets CHEAP! I then began to ask mainly girls [I try for women, but it is so hard to tell] out to the fancy entertainment. I never brought up the matter of the cost of the evening's entertainment, as I do not think it is a proper subject. Several of the girls did. I simply told them, "I am a bargain shopper and I almost never pay full retail!" Several of the girls persisted, apparently to decide if they needed to put out or if I thought they needed to put out. I would just tell the girl that I invited her to the entertainment because I thought she would enjoy it and not because it was expensive, or cheap for that matter. If that last did not solve the problem, the first date was also the last date. [If I could score, well, it is not nice to disappoint a lady!]

If you think that the girls were screwed up, you should consider some of the other guys they dated. Some of the guys thought I was "buying" what they considered "their girl." They thought that they could beat into me the error of my ways. I play kung-fu, only, I aint playin'. The error of ways got beaten into a guy, but the guy was not me. I mean, talk about screwed up! [You really need to do full contact sparring to maintain a sharp kung-fu edge.]

 

[Guest]

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[SeaCat]

sweetsubsarahh:
I moved into a new town and got a telephone. I apparently got the telephone number of a very recent subscriber. I got a call from the "Arts and Culture" people. They had, once again, spent every penny of their funds from last year and were offering VERY attractive deals to long time subscribers so that they could get enough money to send out flyers. I bought the whole season's tickets CHEAP! I then began to ask mainly girls [I try for women, but it is so hard to tell] out to the fancy entertainment. I never brought up the matter of the cost of the evening's entertainment, as I do not think it is a proper subject. Several of the girls did. I simply told them, "I am a bargain shopper and I almost never pay full retail!" Several of the girls persisted, apparently to decide if they needed to put out or if I thought they needed to put out. I would just tell the girl that I invited her to the entertainment because I thought she would enjoy it and not because it was expensive, or cheap for that matter. If that last did not solve the problem, the first date was also the last date. [If I could score, well, it is not nice to disappoint a lady!]

If you think that the girls were screwed up, you should consider some of the other guys they dated. Some of the guys thought I was "buying" what they considered "their girl." They thought that they could beat into me the error of my ways. I play kung-fu, only, I aint playin'. The error of ways got beaten into a guy, but the guy was not me. I mean, talk about screwed up! [You really need to do full contact sparring to maintain a sharp kung-fu edge.]

R. Richard,

The scary thing is that even though I have been out of the dating scene for over 13 years I do know what you mean. I have had to intervene when guys just couldn't understand that when my wife said she was not interested she meant it.

Thw worst part for me recently is my wifes best friend. I know I have mentioned her here before and just how I feel about her. As far as I am concerned she is a part of my family as are her children. Because of her past she is very leary of men who come on to her too hard. There have been several incidents where I have had to intervene, usually just by talking with the guy. Unfortunately this does get noticed and talked about in work. According to the women I work with, (out of roughly 20 there are only 3 Ladies.) I am only doing this to get in her pants. According to several of them if I haven't raped her already then it is just a matter of time. (Their words not mine.) They all know what men are all about.

As for Kung Fu, nope never tried it although I have been interested. I use a mix of the Tai Kwon Do I learned as a kid and Hand to hand as well as being downright nasty. (A collapsible Steel Baton and the knowledge of how to use it works wonders as well. )

Cat