Weakness

[Keroin]

Wow, in theory shouldn't hubs just be asking himself what in his little kitten's past might *cause* her to look outside the marriage and smile while the cuckolding starts? I mean anything else would be judgmental and unfounded, we all have our albatrosses.

Or are we just plain full of it period? Wait, no let me straighten this out:

Sexual harassment is fine, and the ephithet "ASSHOLE" is unjustified in this case, but a wife going online and CHATTING/SHOWING TITS for sexual fulfillment isn't. The higher moral standard of treating the people you work with like human beings is just ~smiles~ but a woman who marries must instantly transform into the Virgin Mary.

NB: it is 2010. Smell the coffee.

If there was anything like a concept of ethics being demonstrated, there wouldn't be any "ridicule." It's calling out bullshit. A whole heaping help of double standard couched in smug pseudoethics.

~smiles~



BTW - the sexual harassment I wrote of was just one of many, many examples of this person's bad behavior - toward me and many others. I don't use the Asshole moniker lightly.

 

[BLoved]

~smile~

Perhaps next time you request an opinion you specify the opinions provided must agree with yours.

It is an unfortunate truth about bdsm forums that discussion quickly degenerates into character assasination as a means of convincing others of the rightness of one's position. Reason plays not part in the thought processes of the immature.

Why discuss ethics when one can get ahead by slinging mud?

This is especially true for discussions regarding ethics. As we all know, the only ethic regarding casual bdsm is "Caveat Emptor". Perhaps this is why they de-rail so many otherwise productive discussions to act out their immaturity for all to see.

 

[JMohegan]

If there was anything like a concept of ethics being demonstrated, there wouldn't be any "ridicule." It's calling out bullshit. A whole heaping help of double standard couched in smug pseudoethics.

Bull's-eye.

 

[Keroin]

~smile~

Perhaps next time you request an opinion you specify the opinions provided must agree with yours.

It is an unfortunate truth about bdsm forums that discussion quickly degenerates into character assasination as a means of convincing others of the rightness of one's position. Reason plays not part in the thought processes of the immature.

Why discuss ethics when one can get ahead by slinging mud?

This is especially true for discussions regarding ethics. As we all know, the only ethic regarding casual bdsm is "Caveat Emptor". Perhaps this is why they de-rail so many otherwise productive discussions to act out their immaturity for all to see.

Careful, your ignorance is showing.

Dude, I welcome all "opinions", regardless of whether they are in line with mine or not. However, I'm going to call bullshit when I see or read it.

You obviously have a strong bias against BDSM. You preach to me about judging others but you have clearly judged all of us here...and then some. You say you have better things to do with your time than hangout where you're unwelcome so...

 

[YourCaptor]

Ok damn, why is it that when people talk about personal shit on this forum, others get all pissed off. My god.

 

[Keroin]

Ok damn, why is it that when people talk about personal shit on this forum, others get all pissed off. My god.

I don't think anyone was pissed off, YC. I think we had one visitor with an agenda, that's all. Seriously, you have to read his essay on Casual BDSM and Emotional Abuse to know where he's coming from.

The opening...

"The first need of the casual community is more recruits.

They are always recruiting more female submissives."


It just gets better from there. Not that he's judging any of us. No, that would be unethical. What a flaming hypocrite.

Anyhoo, I have really enjoyed all the rest of this discussion and the myriad of viewpoints and thoughts.

 

[BLoved]

I welcome all "opinions", regardless of whether they are in line with mine or not. However, I'm going to call bullshit when I see or read it.

It would appear that any opinion not in line with yours is considered "bullshit".

Congratulations for having developed such perfect wisdom.

You obviously have a strong bias against BDSM.

~smile~

Obviously you've not read what I've written.

I only oppose unethical bdsm.

BDSM without ethics is merely rape, assault, abuse, no matter how much the casual players try to portray it otherwise.

Why else disrupt discussions regarding ethics with petty immaturity?

You preach to me about judging others but you have clearly judged all of us here...and then some. You say you have better things to do with your time than hangout where you're unwelcome so...

Preds prey upon the ignorance of others.

A little light on the subject can go a long way towards helping the naive realize casual bdsm is anything but safe.

Considering the degree of maturity being demonstrated in this thread, I could hope more than a few are re-assessing their options.

 

[Cattypuss]

BLoved:

You said -

The world is big enough I need not be where I am not wanted.

Your meaning was clear in spite of your poor grammar.

Is it still not clear to YOU that you are not wanted here?

 

[Keroin]

I only oppose unethical BDSM

Unethical as defined by you. Not that you would judge anyone.

Why else disrupt discussions regarding ethics with petty immaturity?

Oh, are we having a discussion about ethics? I'm sorry, I thought I started a thread about "weakness". Silly me.

Is it still not clear to YOU that you are not wanted here?

Oh, it's clear. He's on a mission. He's here to save the heathens.

Shall I share some of his better tidbits? Sure, why not!

Here's BLoved on public play events...

The public parties are usually money-making in nature. A hall is rented, tickets are sold, anyone walking by along the street can get in for the price of admission.

Depending on the size of the hall, attendance can reach the hundreds.

Nearly all will be male.

Stages are erected for the purposes of displaying the talents of the domly types on submissives. Think of it as an erotic performance, with restraints.

Anyone can submit, as long as they can find someone with toys to dom them.

It is important to notice just how safe this is for a female submissive being invited to perform.

Keep in mind the submissive will be restrained, and thus unable to do anything to protect herself.

Anyone can enter the premises.

No weapons or bottle check is made. No sobriety check is made. Those who come in can be high on anything, and packing anything.

All they need is the price of admission.

It is most likely the event itself is illegal. If busted there will likely be charges. If someone with kids is charged, Social Services may get involved.

And here he is on private play parties...

Basically, if you were invited, someone in the group was hot for your meat and believes you will cooperate completely with their fantasies that involve you.

In theory, no one is pressured into anything.

In practice, that all depends upon someone's definition for "pressure".

Deception may or may not be used to obtain cooperation.

Drugs/alcohol may or may not be used to obtain cooperation.

Hypnosis may or may not be used to obtain cooperation.

And that is assuming subtlty is involved.

For some, the fact a submissive even shows up is enough cooperation. For others, if she permits herself to be tied up she is available to anyone attending.

The thinking is, if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have come to the event.

Now don't you feel enlightened?

 

[DVS]

A number of things triggered this thread for me.

First, reading a brief discussion of M/D-type vulnerability and s-type reactions to such, in Eastern Sun’s, always inspiring, “Marks of a Slave” thread.

Second, the chapter I am currently writing and revising. In which, one very strong and capable protagonist “lowers” herself for the other protagonist – and enjoys it.

Third, (deep breath), my own struggle to accept weakness, or what I perceive as weakness, in myself and others.

Fourth, a letter I received today from a former co-worker/boss/friend, with whom I had a falling out several years ago and to whom I sent an apology about a year ago.


I think it was the last instance that really started the gears grinding. My reaction to the letter was instantly aggressive, defensive and hackle-raising. It took a conscious effort to calm myself and re-read with an open mind. This I did and was shocked, on the second reading, to see that there was nothing in the letter deserving of my initial reaction. In fact, most of the comments were spot on and were not an invocation of blame, merely an expression of feelings.

When I asked myself why I’d reacted so harshly, the answer was an unpleasant one.

To acknowledge the truth of what my friend was saying was, in my mind, to admit to my own weakness. I hate being weak. I hate it more than just about anything. And this hatred I feel extends to the weakness I see or imagine in others - to a lesser degree but, still, it exists.

And it’s disturbing, to me, when I sit back and take stock of how very many behaviors I consider “weak”.

Yeah, it’s a very ugly part of me and one I’m not proud of.

And yet…

It’s gotten me through the darker moments of my life. I have a strong survival instinct and my fear/loathing of weakness is a key component of that. To abandon the part of me that always slaps my face and screams, “Be a man!”, (in the voice of Marlon Brando, from The Godfather, I should add – and yes, I know I’m not a man), well, that scares the hell out of me. I don't think I could function without that facet of my personality.

But here’s the thing…what is it? What is real weakness, what is real strength? Does it bother other people to be weak? Do they even think or care about strength or weakness? Does it matter?

I know, this thread is a bunch of babbling and navel gazing but this is something I’m arm wrestling with right now.

Blah, blah, blah…

I don't consider myself weak. I've always had bad luck in my life so consequently, I've always had to fight for anything I got. And some things that were out of my control really bothered me, because I am very much into control. I've never even been drunk enough to be out of control, because I don't like the feeling.

But, with my recent situation, I've not given up and even when I thought it was hopeless, I kept looking for some avenue to take. There are times when you feel it's hopeless, but that's when you can't give up.

I can express emotion without feeling weak. I can't explain it, but it actually makes me feel stronger. I work well under stress and that helps a lot, too. When the pressure is on, I seem to concentrate more and everything just slides into place. Now, if I could only get that to work for me without being under stress.

 

[BLoved]

Unethical as defined by you. Not that you would judge anyone.

As you would judge others worthy of the title "asshole"?

I need not judge anyone to recognize immaturity when it is presented to me.

If you are going to behave in an immature manner, expect others to notice. The only people who will be impressed are those equally immature.

It is in your inability to distinguish between your behaviour and mature behaviour that your own behaviour stands out.

Oh, are we having a discussion about ethics? I'm sorry, I thought I started a thread about "weakness". Silly me.

In which you pronounced judgment upon others.

There is nothing about the human condition that does not involve ethics.

Oh, it's clear. He's on a mission. He's here to save the heathens.

Actually, I've been providing insights to those most vulnerable to predation.

Shall I share some of his better tidbits? Sure, why not!

Here's BLoved on public play events...

And here he is on private play parties...

Now don't you feel enlightened?

I do appreciate you promoting my posted material.

The above comes from "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love".

I would also recommend "Love and Respect", the "Love" trilogy ("1", "2", "3"), "The Little Things" and "Questing for a Beloved".

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Oh no, no, no! You have to read this to really see this person's brain in its full glory.

Here I thought you were all just a group of friendly, intelligent folks who enjoy communicating in an environment where we are all free to talk about our kinks, or anything else that strikes our fancy, but NO! Turns out you are all a bunch of evil lust mongers, working to recruit poor, little me into your deviant lifestyle!!

I have been duped. Duped I say.

I've read that somewhere before, only without the cigarette analogy I think.

It might have been on FL.

I lumped it into the alarmist pile with the 'golden rules for new subs meeting Doms for the first time because you know they might be axe murderers and as a sub you obviously have no skills in making a personal judgement call on people' crew.

Meh.

 

[BLoved]

I lumped it into the alarmist pile with the 'golden rules for new subs meeting Doms for the first time because you know they might be axe murderers and as a sub you obviously have no skills in making a personal judgement call on people' crew.

Recently I caught a pred trying to con an 18 year old novice into signing a no-limit slave contract.

This same 18 year old will bear scars for life thanks to the rope burns and whip marks from another pred.

Your 'compassion' for those who are most vulnerable to predators is duly noted.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I'm about to add a 6th person to my ignore list, I think. And if I'm not mistaken, at least 3 of those previously on it are long gone from Lit.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Recently I caught a pred trying to con an 18 year old novice into signing a no-limit slave contract.

This same 18 year old will bear scars for life thanks to the rope burns and whip marks from another pred.

Your 'compassion' for those who are most vulnerable to predators is duly noted.

LOL

I never said it doesn't happen ever.

But the sorts of people who ring those alarm bells do it constantly, over every little thing, to make themselves feel like they're the pillars of the community, and that nobody can make a move without their approval, because they know so much better.

While the might sometimes have a valid point, their blanket throwing over everything really does render their point just about useless, and their blatant disregard for the intelligence levels of new people as a whole, is insulting.


eta: I was daft enough to read *more* of that thing... and god. The 'all Doms are bad, all femsubs are sweet, innocent beings about to be corrupted by these predators' thing makes me want to revive the batshit insane submissives thread.

Oh, and the condescending air of the whole thing, especially the 'this is what the Dom wants and the sub will put up with it because she loves him and will suffer emotional damage because of it' partner swapping parts just makes me laugh. JC on a motorcycle, it's like the idea of a mutually rewarding relationship that includes those things doesn't even exists in your world.

 

[subish2009]

Weakness, what weakness? I has no weakness.



I constantly try to be strong, and will measure other people with my own yardstick.

Mostly I compare other men to myself. Most fall horridly short. Some are trying, and that's cool. Others around the same level are friends, or respected.

Women, I don't know, totally different experience so I can't judge them so much unless they adhere to the manly code. So then I judge them too.

Maybe I shouldn't do all that, but you know when people learn about some of the things I've done, or see what I am capable of, they tend to start worshiping. So there is some reinforcement.


Subs however, they are exceptional, and strong in a different way. I'll tell you how.

In simplest terms.

When I see someone trying to be their own. Self reliant, one man island. I compare theirs to mine and if they fail fuck em. They sign up for it so screw them.

Subs, who live for others, that is different, and separate rules apply. To give yourself, to sacrifice, that is admirable. Subs do not live according to the strong/weak thing me and you have. They do something else entirely.

Honestly I don't understand subs, and probably never will. I don't know what they do. All I know is whatever it is, it's very right, useful, and makes you feel damn good.

YC, that's so freaking sweet!

 

[subish2009]

<snip>Talking about strength and weakness though, I need to add something that relates to men only. Because society requires men to be strong, even when I personally think it's ridiculous, to me, when a man is capable of being vulnerable...not necessarily to the whole world, but to someone/those who are important to him...I think that shows great strength.

Exactly! It's like strength in the face of societal expectations! Like a giant middle finger to the world. The strength to be yourself...be authentic...make no apologies for what you are... That can be very admirable, very rare, and very hot in a man.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Exactly! It's like strength in the face of societal expectations! Like a giant middle finger to the world. The strength to be yourself...be authentic...make no apologies for what you are... That can be very admirable, very rare, and very hot in a man.

Mr got the sniffles during a sad bit in a movie a while ago. He only tried to hide it a little bit as a matter of form. I fell even more heavily for him when I saw it.

 

[Keroin]

I'm about to add a 6th person to my ignore list, I think. And if I'm not mistaken, at least 3 of those previously on it are long gone from Lit.

I'm just wondering where Gracie is? She always loves poking at the trolls, I hate for her to miss this one, especially one so easily provoked.

I'm judgmental and immature now. I can't wait to see what other labels Mr Peace and harmony comes up with for me next!

 

[ChuckEPenguin]

It is in your inability to distinguish between your behaviour and mature behaviour that your own behaviour stands out.

BANG! You hit that nail on the head, BLoved. "Immature", yes, that describes Keroin perfectly.

Good for you. Keep fighting the good fight. *applauds*

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

BANG! You hit that nail on the head, BLoved. "Immature", yes, that describes Keroin perfectly.

Good for you. Keep fighting the good fight. *applauds*

Are you jealous cos you ain't be getting no lovin' from Keroin lately, or something?

 

[BLoved]

I never said it doesn't happen ever ... their blatant disregard for the intelligence levels of new people as a whole, is insulting.

What I think a lot of people find "insulting" is the effort of the casual community to tell them when they should feel insulted and when they shouldn't.

A lot of people who want to involve bdsm in their lives appreciate the insights I provide on what to look for and what to avoid.

Advice is free and the option to read it or not, to take it or not is entirely up to each reader.

The only people who benefit from the suppression of information are those who profit from ignorance: the casual community as a whole and the predators in particular.

To suggest those who offer advice are insulting those who seek advice is not a terribly convincing argument.

It is, however, a rather transparent effort to manipulate others by telling them they should feel insulted if advice is offered and that they should avoid those who offer advice because anyone who offers advice is a wingnut with delusions of grandeur.

~smile~

You do realize that the only people influenced by such manipulation are probably too young to be on this site, right?

The way I see it, those who would ridicule a concern for ethics in bdsm in public will most likely do so in private even moreso. The public behaviour of advocates for casual 'bdsm' when the topic of ethics comes up has been one of my most convincing arguments against casual 'bdsm'.

When the advocates are blissfully unaware of how immature they appear in public, the reader gets a pretty good idea of how immature their behaviour will be in private where there are no witnesses to the abuse they perpetrate.

Predators are well known for their immaturity and lack of concern for ethics.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Heh.

I do so enjoy how you perceive what has been said to suit your own needs.

if I said something was insulting, it's because I find it to be so. if I say that blanket statements are bogus, it's because I find it to be so.

Of course, anything I say is my personal opinion, because I don't stand up and proclaim myself an expert on anything.

But, nowhere did I say that *all* people should feel insulted by the offering of advice, nor that they should ignore it. They're adults, they can do and think as they please. Just as I can.

And I'm not saying that all advice comes froma wingnut with delusions of grandeur... just that I believe that this particular kind of posturing is.

But, if people find it helpful, then kudos to you.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Oh, and while we're on the subject of being insulting... fuck you buddy, and the horse you rode in on, for implying that I'm less real about the bdsm aspects of my life than you. You don't know me, so you can shove your opinion up your ass.

*smiles cheerfully*

I'm done.

 

[rida]

Predators are well known for their immaturity and lack of concern for ethics.

Those are the stupid ones, the ones that get caught quickly.

The dangerous ones, are the highly intelligent, good at debating, confusing, and verbally overwhelm their prey. Those ones, also often come out as highly reassuring and checking all the safety boxes.