The healthhcare bill will help Republicans too! ~Micheal Moore

[DeeZire]

The only thing Government should do is what is outlined in the Constitution, one step beyond that is to far.

So tell me where in the Constitution it says that Government should control 1/6 of the countries economy? That they should mandate that I buy health insurance under penalty? Where does it say these rights belong to the federal government?

Here's an argument in favor of the constitutionality of the mandate for individuals to purchase insurance. In case you're not interested in reading it, the argument hinges on the interstate commerce clause of the constitution. Of course it's entirely possible that the Supreme Court will deem the personal mandate unconstitutional, just like they deemed the counting of votes in Florida unconstitutional, so don't worry Zeb, you can un-bunch your panties, at least for the time being.

Some who object to the health care proposals claim that they are beyond the scope of congressional powers. Specifically, they argue that Congress lacks the authority to compel people to purchase health insurance or pay a tax or a fine.

Congress clearly could do this under its power pursuant to Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution to regulate commerce among the states. The Supreme Court has held that this includes authority to regulate activities that have a substantial effect on interstate commerce. In the area of economic activities, “substantial effect” can be found based on the cumulative impact of the activity across the country. For example, a few years ago, the Supreme Court held that Congress could use its commerce clause authority to prohibit individuals from cultivating and possessing small amounts of marijuana for personal medicinal use because marijuana is bought and sold in interstate commerce.

The relationship between health care coverage and the national economy is even stronger and more readily apparent. In 2007, health care expenditures amounted to $2.2 trillion, or $7,421 per person, and accounted for 16.2 percent of the gross domestic product.

Ken Klukowski, writing in POLITICO, argued that “people who declined to purchase government-mandated insurance would not be engaging in commercial activity, so there’s no interstate commerce.” Klukowski’s argument is flawed because the Supreme Court never has said that the commerce power is limited to regulating those who are engaged in commercial activity.

Quite the contrary: The court has said that Congress can use its commerce power to forbid hotels and restaurants from discriminating based on race, even though their conduct was refusing to engage in commercial activity. Likewise, the court has said that Congress can regulate the growing of marijuana for personal medicinal use, even if the person being punished never engaged in any commercial activity.

Under an unbroken line of precedents stretching back 70 years, Congress has the power to regulate activities that, taken cumulatively, have a substantial effect on interstate commerce. People not purchasing health insurance unquestionably has this effect.

There is a substantial likelihood that everyone will need medical care at some point. A person with a communicable disease will be treated whether or not he or she is insured. A person in an automobile accident will be rushed to the hospital for treatment, whether or not he or she is insured. Congress would simply be requiring everyone to be insured to cover their potential costs to the system.

Congress also could justify this as an exercise of its taxing and spending power. Congress can require the purchase of health insurance and then tax those who do not do so in order to pay their costs to the system. This is similar to Social Security taxes, which everyone pays to cover the costs of the Social Security system. Since the 1930s, the Supreme Court has accorded Congress broad powers to tax and spend for the general welfare and has left it to Congress to determine this.

 

[amicus]

As a person who has never known anything but a system that provides "Universal" Health Care...(came into effect the year I was born, 1968) I am confused beyond words at the resistance...Seems like a no-brainer to me...[/

QUOTE]

~~~

Not to single out Lady_Guenivere, but as representative of a generation; that is perhaps the saddest commentary I have ever read concerning human freedom.

That 'Resistance' you spoke of is an apt term and I compare it to the French Resistance to Nazi Occupation in World War Two. There were many French people, perhaps a majority, who were content under National Socialism and that remains true even today as the Center Right Government of Sarkozy was pummelled by the Socialists in last weekends elections.

To those who were born and grew up in the Dickensonian characters mental state, "May I have some more, please?", have neither anecdotal experience or the intellectual awareness to conceive the true meaning of human individual freedom.

The weakened version of 'Universal' healthcare, or Socialized Medicine, is one of a long line of repressive legislation that has assaulted the bastion of human choice and individual freedom.

I believe you when you say you just don't get it, I truly do, and that too is sad beyond belief.

I am even more convinced at this late date, as I was in the mid 1970's, that only a bloody Revolution in America will salvage our basic concepts of freedom and limited government.

All of the social legislation from the Income Tax Amendment, through Social Security and Medicare have been passed with bi-partisan cooperation. What passed the House over the weekend was done entirely by Democrats with not a single Republican vote.

Talk about division, polarization and the inability of either side to understand the other, I doubt there can be a better example.

That division did not originate in Congress or even in the White House, it is a split between Americans who want a Republic based on the Constitution and Bill of Rights and those who want a government with absolute power over the people.

By the time most realize, if ever, the direction this government has taken, it will be far too late to change it by peaceful means.

So, when I said, for 20 years on talk radio, "Up the Revolution", I meant it and I mean it now.

UP THE REVOLUTION!

Amicus

 

[TE999]

The Democrat majority is celebrating a Pyhrric victory. Against the express wishes of the majority of the American populace, they bribed, wheedled, threatened and buffaloed enough of their colleagues to vote for a patchwork bill that will not survive constitutional challenges and be tied up in state instigated litigation for years to come. Just assembling the bureaucracy to administer this monstrosity will be a job in itself...but hey, jobs are being created.

The fact remains, how will this thing in whatever form it finally takes, if at all, be funded? Robbing Medicare to expand Medicaid...shuffling numbers around years in the future...double entry bookkeeping, etc. means nothing. This country is so massively in debt already because of these clowns it's both breathtaking and chilling and now trillions more will be added to it?

I wouldn't break out the cake, funny horns and party hats just yet...this monster has just risen from it's slab and it has a long way to shuffle...plus there's a bunch of pissed off villagers out there called voters.

 

[Dragonlipz]

QUOTE]

~~~

Not to single out Lady_Guenivere, but as representative of a generation; that is perhaps the saddest commentary I have ever read concerning human freedom.

That 'Resistance' you spoke of is an apt term and I compare it to the French Resistance to Nazi Occupation in World War Two. There were many French people, perhaps a majority, who were content under National Socialism and that remains true even today as the Center Right Government of Sarkozy was pummelled by the Socialists in last weekends elections.

To those who were born and grew up in the Dickensonian characters mental state, "May I have some more, please?", have neither anecdotal experience or the intellectual awareness to conceive the true meaning of human individual freedom.

The weakened version of 'Universal' healthcare, or Socialized Medicine, is one of a long line of repressive legislation that has assaulted the bastion of human choice and individual freedom.

I believe you when you say you just don't get it, I truly do, and that too is sad beyond belief.

I am even more convinced at this late date, as I was in the mid 1970's, that only a bloody Revolution in America will salvage our basic concepts of freedom and limited government.

All of the social legislation from the Income Tax Amendment, through Social Security and Medicare have been passed with bi-partisan cooperation. What passed the House over the weekend was done entirely by Democrats with not a single Republican vote.

Talk about division, polarization and the inability of either side to understand the other, I doubt there can be a better example.

That division did not originate in Congress or even in the White House, it is a split between Americans who want a Republic based on the Constitution and Bill of Rights and those who want a government with absolute power over the people.

By the time most realize, if ever, the direction this government has taken, it will be far too late to change it by peaceful means.

So, when I said, for 20 years on talk radio, "Up the Revolution", I meant it and I mean it now.

UP THE REVOLUTION!

Amicus

What kind of cheese goes with all this whine?????

 

[Dragonlipz]

The Democrat majority is celebrating a Pyhrric victory. Against the express wishes of the majority of the American populace, they bribed, wheedled, threatened and buffaloed enough of their colleagues to vote for a patchwork bill that will not survive constitutional challenges and be tied up in state instigated litigation for years to come. Just assembling the bureaucracy to administer this monstrosity will be a job in itself...but hey, jobs are being created.

The fact remains, how will this thing in whatever form it finally takes, if at all, be funded? Robbing Medicare to expand Medicaid...shuffling numbers around years in the future...double entry bookkeeping, etc. means nothing. This country is so massively in debt already because of these clowns it's both breathtaking and chilling and now trillions more will be added to it?

I wouldn't break out the cake, funny horns and party hats just yet...this monster has just risen from it's slab and it has a long way to shuffle...plus there's a bunch of pissed off villagers out there called voters.

How's about a slab of cheddar for you? You're doing some major league whining.....

 

[Dragonlipz]

Here's an argument in favor of the constitutionality of the mandate for individuals to purchase insurance. In case you're not interested in reading it, the argument hinges on the interstate commerce clause of the constitution. Of course it's entirely possible that the Supreme Court will deem the personal mandate unconstitutional, just like they deemed the counting of votes in Florida unconstitutional, so don't worry Zeb, you can un-bunch your panties, at least for the time being.

DZ - don't y'all go using too many BIG words on the Zebmiester....it just makes him crazy when you utilize a vocabulary that highlights his many faults.....so be nice and parse it in very small bits when you explain it to him....
Better yet, let Rush and Glenn run it down for him.....they speak his language.......

 

[Dragonlipz]

As a person who has never known anything but a system that provides "Universal" Health Care...(came into effect the year I was born, 1968) I am confused beyond words at the resistance...Seems like a no-brainer to me...

LG - it is indeed a no-brainer: those who have no brains, no ideas, no incentive and no social morality have NO plan to fix the broken system of health care in this country - they only have an artificial network of racists, homophobes, teabuggers and know-nothings to advance a non-agenda for reform....
But that doesn't stop them from being the puppets of the corporate interests that have incited their racist, illogical passions......
Pity them as I do because health reform will work for them....
Of course, if Amicus (the hypocritcal one) really wants to make amends, he can give back the Social Security and Medicare payments he's received for the past few years......

 

[Huckleman2000]

Can we finally hang up that tired argument that "most Americans oppose Obamacare", therefore "most Americans oppose healthcare reform"? It's simply not true. Of those who oppose the bill, a substantial portion oppose it because they doen't think it goes far enough. People who actually oppose it, and think it's too liberal, amount to only 43%. People who support it, plus those who don't think it goes far enough, amount to 52% Here's just the latest poll that demonstrates this:

20. As you may know, the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate are trying to pass final legislation that would make major changes in the country’s health care system. Based on what you have read or heard about that legislation, do you generally favor it or generally oppose it?
Mar 19-21 2010
Favor 39%
Oppose 59%
No opinion 2%

21. (IF OPPOSE) Do you oppose that legislation because you think its approach toward health care is too liberal, or because you think it is not liberal enough?
QUESTIONS 20 AND 21 COMBINED
Mar 19-21 2010
Favor (from Question 20) 39%
Oppose, too liberal 43%
Oppose, not liberal enough 13%
No opinion 5%

 

[JackLuis]

The only ones I hear of that opposed the bill were the Repub's and and the people who thought the Senate gutted the House Bill.

Now lets see the anti-trust reform passed that will allow the Govt to rein in the Insurance Co's.

Now lets see the Justice Dept investigate the Bond Rating agencies that rated the GS junk mortgages as AAA?

Now lets see if the Democrats can deliver on anything that is real reform, not eyewash and shoveling money at the Corporations?

Well perhaps we had better wait and see if the Dem's can reconcile the bill now that they only need a majority.

I have little hope that the bill will be passed with any teeth. Big Pharma and the Insurance Co's have emasculated the House bill, lets see how independent the Senate really is?

 

[DeeZire]

Not to single out Lady_Guenivere, but as representative of a generation; that is perhaps the saddest commentary I have ever read concerning human freedom....

Without quoting Ami's entire post, I would like to suggest to Laurel and Manu that they incorporate a special, oversized calligraphy font specifically for Ami's profound pontifications. Every time I see him in print, I envision some old hunch-backed dude in a white wig, circa 1776, with a gold monocle and matching gold watch chain on his big black belt. It really is ironic that the LIT character most suited to be the star of a PBS docudrama about American history despises public television because it's partially funded by the government.

But wait! I have a vague recollection of Ami mentioning some nature show he was watching on PBS one time. Does that make him a hypocrite? Are all his anti-government screeds simply a diversionary tactic to hide his penchant for socialized TV?

***********

Back to Ami's oh-so-eloquent whine about partisanship - Ami, my friend, the Bush tax cut for the rich, the one you're currently benefitting from, was so unpopular it had to be pushed through via reconciliation, just like the healthcare reform bill you're complaining about now.

Come to think of it, Ami's eligibility for the label "hypocrite" just keeps expanding with every post he contributes here.

Keep up the good work, my man. You're a shining beacon of ridiculousness in a world of clueless Right Wing buffoonary.

 

[Bobby_3111]

I wonder what ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions ...

 

[Dragonlipz]

Without quoting Ami's entire post, I would like to suggest to Laurel and Manu that they incorporate a special, oversized calligraphy font specifically for Ami's profound pontifications. Every time I see him in print, I envision some old hunch-backed dude in a white wig, circa 1776, with a gold monocle and matching gold watch chain on his big black belt. It really is ironic that the LIT character most suited to be the star of a PBS docudrama about American history despises public television because it's partially funded by the government.

But wait! I have a vague recollection of Ami mentioning some nature show he was watching on PBS one time. Does that make him a hypocrite? Are all his anti-government screeds simply a diversionary tactic to hide his penchant for socialized TV?

***********

Back to Ami's oh-so-eloquent whine about partisanship - Ami, my friend, the Bush tax cut for the rich, the one you're currently benefitting from, was so unpopular it had to be pushed through via reconciliation, just like the healthcare reform bill you're complaining about now.

Come to think of it, Ami's eligibility for the label "hypocrite" just keeps expanding with every post he contributes here.

Keep up the good work, my man. You're a shining beacon of ridiculousness in a world of clueless Right Wing buffoonary.

Don't discourage him DZ, I enjoy his alzhiemer-inspired rants.....

 

[Dragonlipz]

I wonder what ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions ...

So do I......

 

[DeeZire]

I wonder what ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions ...

That's what the mandate for individuals to purchase health insurance is all about. People aren't responsible for their own actions. The don't buy health insurance, and then when the have an emergency, they go to the hospital, and if they can't pay, everyone else who is in the system pays higher rates to make up the difference.

 

[rgraham666]

I wonder what ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions ...

So if someone is blindsided by a drunk driver and they're too poor to pay insurance because they're working poor it's their own fault and should take responsibility for their bad decisions?

 

[Huckleman2000]

So if someone is blindsided by a drunk driver and they're too poor to pay insurance because they're working poor it's their own fault and should take responsibility for their bad decisions?

Exactly. Don't you know that bad things only happen to bad people?

 

[TE999]

I wonder what ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions ...

Because it's not fair, that's why. *sob...sob..sniffle*

 

[Bobby_3111]

So if someone is blindsided by a drunk driver and they're too poor to pay insurance because they're working poor it's their own fault and should take responsibility for their bad decisions?

They drive to and from work and suddenly get slammed by a drunk driver. And this is my problem how exactly ? Call me callous and inconsiderate but i'm not one to open my heart up to every single news story and send $5 to help them with medical bills. I'd be broke if i did that, thats why we have so many wanting a socialist medical care system, so they can feel good about getting the drunk-driver-accident victims taken care of. And of course the other people not wanting to pay for health insurance. Yes not wanting to pay for it, they can cut out a couple of pizza's or mcdonalds trips per week to pay for it.

I mean Jesus, we aren't meant to live forever. I accept mortality, hell if I had cancer do you think i'd waste my time getting fried by some damn high tech microwave oven ? No, I'd go out and drink, probably smoke some weed, and have one hell of a last month, year, or whatever time i had left.

Paying for someone else to stay alive and prolonging their existence just so they can catch another few episodes of Survivor or Lost before they head to that big couch in the sky isnt my idea of helping the needy.

Honest people work, they make their own lives and a lot turn out to be pretty great. And those that dont will always be ready to take advantage of whatever social system the fools in the capitol will come up with.

Benjamin Franklin - The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself.

 

[DeeZire]

Honest people work, they make their own lives and a lot turn out to be pretty great. And those that dont will always be ready to take advantage of whatever social system the fools in the capitol will come up with.

Benjamin Franklin - The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself.

So tell me, Bobby, what are honest people supposed to do when they get laid off, and there are 6 job applicants for every job? Do you automatically deem the five that don't get hired to be dishonest and unworthy of the opportunity to pursue happiness?

 

[Bobby_3111]

That's what the mandate for individuals to purchase health insurance is all about. People aren't responsible for their own actions. The don't buy health insurance, and then when the have an emergency, they go to the hospital, and if they can't pay, everyone else who is in the system pays higher rates to make up the difference.

I can understand what you're saying there, but I had thought HMO's, clinics, community hospitals could write those off on their taxes. I know a ton of the hospitals around here have payment plans for people that cant afford to pay the entire bill upfront, I did it myself when i was 19 after getting pneumonia. But those that just deliberately dont pay it all, yea it sux but I just dont believe that this bill they are passing is the answer.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I can understand what you're saying there, but I had thought HMO's, clinics, community hospitals could write those off on their taxes.

That's an interesting thing to think. Have you ever looked into this theory of yours? Or better yet-- have you ever been to a community clinic? Where is the closest one to you? How many are there in your area?

I know a ton of the hospitals around here have payment plans for people that cant afford to pay the entire bill upfront, I did it myself when i was 19 after getting pneumonia. But those that just deliberately dont pay it all, yea it sux but I just dont believe that this bill they are passing is the answer.

And how many people do you think" just deliberately don't pay it all? " You know what that does to people's credit, right? Think about it, anyone who "deliberately doesn't pay at all" is living on the edge of disaster already.

 

[amicus]

Hello Bobby3111 and welcome to the fray.

There is a vague, fuzzy dream promoted by our resident socialists; that all would be well if government looked after all our needs.

Notwithstanding that every socialist and quasi socialist regime has ended in utter inhuman misery.

Perhaps they think they can 'ride the tiger' and avoid the inevitable appetite of the beast.

Amicus

 

[Bobby_3111]

So tell me, Bobby, what are honest people supposed to do when they get laid off, and there are 6 job applicants for every job? Do you automatically deem the five that don't get hired to be dishonest and unworthy of the opportunity to pursue happiness?

I thought we were discussing the health care issue, not the job market. But since you asked i'll tell you.

For one thing your trying to twist words and make me the bad guy, i'm not, i'm just the guy that believes where there is a will to improve yourself, there is a way to do it. I make my own way in this world and ask no one for anything.

Now that being said, if someone is out of work then they can find work elsewhere. Hell i've hitch-hiked to a couple towns miles from home to look for work before when I had just gotten out of school. Once you get the job ask around, you can get a ride from someone.

Will someone find work? It depends on how bad they want it.

Will someone take a hand out? They dont have to want, it's being shoved in their faces with smiles and pretty ribbons. It's only going to be later that we all see there's is a very big hook in it.

 

[Bobby_3111]

That's an interesting thing to think. Have you ever looked into this theory of yours? Or better yet-- have you ever been to a community clinic? Where is the closest one to you? How many are there in your area? And how many people do you think" just deliberately don't pay it all? " You know what that does to people's credit, right? Think about it, anyone who "deliberately doesn't pay at all" is living on the edge of disaster already.

How many near here ? 5, if i count the one in the county seat.

Have I ever been to one ? Re-read what I wrote, key-word = pneumonia

And I know there are some that dont pay at all, and yes it goes on their credit report. But I have to ask again, what does that have to do with me ? If they are too damn lazy to work and improve their lives themselves why should I have to help them exist ?

 

[DeeZire]

...If they are too damn lazy to work and improve their lives themselves why should I have to help them exist ?

Now Bobby, you can't ignore the part of the discussion that proves your argument is baseless. Well, actually you can, but it makes you look like a wuss. (10% unemployment rate - more than likely in the neighborhood of 20% if you count the under-employed and the ones who have totally fallen off the grid.)