Useful Feedback

[polynices]

I've done my share of moaning about silly feedback, so - to compensate - I thought I'd mention this comment, on a story of mine that's been up for a few hours:

"Ending
02/27/10 By: Anonymous
The story linewas good it held my interest until the end. The end was flat."

Of course, I'd have preferred unadulterated praise - 'Great Story!' or something similar - but it seems to me that this kind of response is what the feedback facility is really designed for. The comment is balanced and the criticism is restrained. I had a few doubts of my own about the story before I posted it - it isn't one of my better ones, I now think - but it takes feedback like this to crystalize a vague doubt and give me a clear sense of what was wrong.

It's unfortunate, from my point of view, that this comment was anonymous. If there'd been a name with it, I'd have written to thank him/her. Still, just in case s/he happens to see this - thank you. This was genuinely constructive, useful criticism.

- polynices

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Unless your critics are competent writers their opinions are worthless; what in hell does 'flat' mean?

The best means of comparison are first-rate tales by excellent writers. Compare your wares with the best.

Last night I read an old novel by Elmore Leonard; when I was done reading, it occurred to me why Leonard's writing is so good and mine is so blah. We both use the best bricks but mine are heaped in a pile and his are arranged in interesting patterns in a solid structure atop a strong foundation.

 

[polynices]

Unless your critics are competent writers their opinions are worthless; what in hell does 'flat' mean?

The best means of comparison are first-rate tales by excellent writers. Compare your wares with the best.

I think a lot of us write for readers as well as - maybe rather than - other writers, so I do value this comment. As to 'flat' - it means something to me. I deliberately went for a low-key ending in the story. That may not be a bad thing in itself, but I did wonder how it would go down with readers as I wrote it. This person has let me know that it didn't work for him/her at least, and that was useful, because it confirmed my own doubt.

On the other hand, I'd certainly take the implication that one reader's judgement isn't in any sense definitive. Surely the thing about writing - about all art at whatever level - is that there is no absolute standard of excellence? I've certainly had some criticisms of other stories that made points I couldn't connect to at all. That doesn't invalidate the criticisms, of course - it just shows that, in those cases, the critic's reading was a long way from my own.

I completely agree with what you say about Elmore Leonard, by the way:

"Last night I read an old novel by Elmore Leonard; when I was done reading, it occurred to me why Leonard's writing is so good and mine is so blah. We both use the best bricks but mine are heaped in a pile and his are arranged in interesting patterns in a solid structure atop a strong foundation."

I used to think that the most important thing in my own writing was getting the sentences and paragraphs right - the 'bricks'. I'm increasingly realising, though, that the architecture of an entire story is crucial - the way I build my structure, as you say. And that, of course, is very difficult to do well, both in the erotic writing we post here and in other genres.

- polynices

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

There is a standard of excellence, otherwise HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME and Special Olympics Word Salad are peers.

 

[polynices]

There is a standard of excellence, otherwise HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME and Special Olympics Word Salad are peers.

... But perhaps from the point of view of the schizophrenic, the word salad is at least the Hunchback's equal, if not its superior?

And where does that place Finnegans Wake - which is pretty salad-like in its own right, of course - or, even the denser passages of Uysses?

- polynices

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No one publishes schizophrenic word salad but university print-shops and day treatment newsletters. James Joyce is a curiosity, like a carnival freak or female clergy. Only a lit perfesser with 7 faculty co-authors encourages her students to mimic James Joyce. Every student with both oars in the water wants to copy Thomas Harris or Grisham or Pat Cornwell or Stephen King NOT Joyce or Toni Morrison or Maya Angelou. Joyce et al are the equivalent of 'wiser pills.'

 

[Darkniciad]

Anon gets a bad rap from the abundance of trollish members of the tribe, but anonymous commenters have gems to offer as well.

Sometimes, it's just a confirmation of something that you questioned when you were writing and editing a piece. Sometimes it's pointing out an error or inconsistency that completely missed you.

Always a little frustrating when you can't directly thank someone who offered some enlightening commentary, but the site is actually working on that. One of the upcoming steps to the improvements to the comment system is threaded comments, where you can reply to the comments on your stories.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the original commenter will see the reply, but at least anyone checking out your comments will see that you appreciate constructive comments.

Just resist the urge to respond to the loonier ones when they get it working *laugh*

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DARKY stalks critics who hate his stories written entirely with conjunctions, articles, & adverbs. Read his magnum opus, FROM THE DEPTHS OF OBSCURITY TO THE HEIGHTS OF OBLIVION: One man's journey.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And jimmy is successful and happy in real life and somebody loves him.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Somebody loves me! I wonder who? I wonder who can it be!

When this world began
It was Heaven's plan
There should be a girl for ev'ry single man.
To my great regret
Someone has upset
Heaven's pretty progamme for we've never met.
I'm clutching at straws, just because
I may meet her yet.

Somebody loves me, I wonder who,
I wonder who she can be.
Somebody loves me, I wish I knew,
Who can she be worries me.
For ev'ry girl who passes me I shout, " Hey, maybe
You were meant to be my loving baby. "
Somebody loves me, I wonder who,
Maybe it's you.

 

[Lady_Guenivere]

Somebody loves me! I wonder who? I wonder who can it be!

When this world began
It was Heaven's plan
There should be a girl for ev'ry single man.
To my great regret
Someone has upset
Heaven's pretty progamme for we've never met.
I'm clutching at straws, just because
I may meet her yet.

Somebody loves me, I wonder who,
I wonder who she can be.
Somebody loves me, I wish I knew,
Who can she be worries me.
For ev'ry girl who passes me I shout, " Hey, maybe
You were meant to be my loving baby. "
Somebody loves me, I wonder who,
Maybe it's you.

George Gershwin

If you are going to quote someone's lyrics...perhaps you should give them credit???

 

[Stella_Omega]

George Gershwin loves jimmy?

 

[sr71plt]

I think "the end was flat" could be a bit more specific to be useful too.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I know some women who would love to hear that their end was flat.

 

[Seurat]

So what happens when it is the other way 'round?

Yesterday, I noted a new story by an author whose work I have liked in the past. His newest piece was derivative, and he stated so in his prologue.

In addition to my positive comments, I asked that a link to the original story be included, as I have always felt that a 'part two' should have a 'part one'.

This morning I was sent an email by a reader who saw my post and said it was responded to by the author, yet deleted. It is a mystery to me, and perhaps some of you can explain the logic behind the action.

As an author, I can see eliminating anon's "you're a gay" or '00' comments, but for the most part, I try to find something in both the compliments and the criticisms I receive and therefore leave them be. When I read other author's stories, I read the comments posted afterward to gain insight into what works and what doesn't, and also to find out more about the way the author thinks. Does the author allow comments? Does the author only allow positive ones? Does the author respond to questions asked?


I still like the author and some of the work he puts out, but my respect has been diminished.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

George Gershwin

If you are going to quote someone's lyrics...perhaps you should give them credit???

You cant make me, and George didnt write the lyrics, Ira did. Idiot. I mean, who's gonna enforce an expired copyright when everyone is dead?

 

[polynices]

Yesterday, I noted a new story by an author whose work I have liked in the past. His newest piece was derivative, and he stated so in his prologue.

In addition to my positive comments, I asked that a link to the original story be included, as I have always felt that a 'part two' should have a 'part one'.

This morning I was sent an email by a reader who saw my post and said it was responded to by the author, yet deleted. It is a mystery to me, and perhaps some of you can explain the logic behind the action.

As an author, I can see eliminating anon's "you're a gay" or '00' comments, but for the most part, I try to find something in both the compliments and the criticisms I receive and therefore leave them be. When I read other author's stories, I read the comments posted afterward to gain insight into what works and what doesn't, and also to find out more about the way the author thinks. Does the author allow comments? Does the author only allow positive ones? Does the author respond to questions asked?


I still like the author and some of the work he puts out, but my respect has been diminished.

Well, you presumably know my view already: I now delete straightforward abuse or silly pedantry, but I'm very happy to receive reasoned criticism - and it doesn't have to be super-sophisticated to be useful either.

That said, it takes a lot of time and effort to produce a story - even a mediocre one, like the one I posted yesterday. I think it's right that the author is the final arbiter and has the power to delete comments, for whatever reason s/he chooses - though I appreciate that may well be annoying for a commenter who's actually put thought and effort into his/her comment.

It did strike me, by the way, as I read your post, that the deletion of your comment might have been an error - especially since you've been told the author responded to your original comment at some stage. (Without knowing what the story is, of course, it's difficult to speculate further.)

More generally, I think the nature of the relationship between Literotica authors and their readers is fascinating. It would be interesting to find out more about the motivations of both - beyond the obviously sexual thing. I think my main reason for posting stories here is vanity - but that doesn't cover everything, of course. Reader response is essential, though. Without votes and feedback, however limited, i'm pretty sure I wouldn't post here.

JAMESBJOHNSON characterises that need for feedback as 'needing a big hug from mummy' - and I'm sure he's right on some level. Freud said that all art production is an act of sublimated libido, if I remember him correctly, and I don't think you have to be a committed Freudian to see at least some truth in that.

- polynices

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No. I believe most writers want a hug from mommy when it come to feedback, and that isnt the same thing as writing to get a hug from mommy.

My girlfriend says I want an audience, and I say SO HOW IS THAT A PROBLEM? She loves her fans and their interactions with her; same thing if you ask me.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I've done my share of moaning about silly feedback, so - to compensate - I thought I'd mention this comment, on a story of mine that's been up for a few hours:

"Ending
02/27/10 By: Anonymous
The story linewas good it held my interest until the end. The end was flat."

Of course, I'd have preferred unadulterated praise - 'Great Story!' or something similar - but it seems to me that this kind of response is what the feedback facility is really designed for. The comment is balanced and the criticism is restrained. I had a few doubts of my own about the story before I posted it - it isn't one of my better ones, I now think - but it takes feedback like this to crystalize a vague doubt and give me a clear sense of what was wrong.

It's unfortunate, from my point of view, that this comment was anonymous. If there'd been a name with it, I'd have written to thank him/her. Still, just in case s/he happens to see this - thank you. This was genuinely constructive, useful criticism.

- polynices

Try Story Feedback on the forum. You may get the same comment but it won't be anonymous and would probably spark other replies.

 

[Seurat]

That said, it takes a lot of time and effort to produce a story - even a mediocre one, like the one I posted yesterday. I think it's right that the author is the final arbiter and has the power to delete comments, for whatever reason s/he chooses - though I appreciate that may well be annoying for a commenter who's actually put thought and effort into his/her comment.

It did strike me, by the way, as I read your post, that the deletion of your comment might have been an error - especially since you've been told the author responded to your original comment at some stage. (Without knowing what the story is, of course, it's difficult to speculate further.)

The story in question was poizon69's "A cuckold no more part 8"; I am not diming him out or intending to any further comment, I was just curious on thoughts.

More generally, I think the nature of the relationship between Literotica authors and their readers is fascinating. It would be interesting to find out more about the motivations of both - beyond the obviously sexual thing. I think my main reason for posting stories here is vanity - but that doesn't cover everything, of course. Reader response is essential, though. Without votes and feedback, however limited, i'm pretty sure I wouldn't post here.

Agreed. When I first started posting stories, it was (much more crudely) referred to as the 'blowjob principle'; that is, if somebody goes down on you, then the least you could do is say 'thank you'. And if you ever wanted another one, you damn well better say something. How many writers have disappeared from our ranks, and how many stories went unfinished or unpublished because the author received two comments, thirty seven votes, but over twelve thousand views? Lack of active participation on the part of the reader will guarantee the eventual demise of an author far quicker than negative feedback, I would think.

The same went for stories, and I think it illustrates well the feedback/comments/anonymous factors discussed here. Feedback is good: the stars can tell you if people like what you write. And let's face it. We authors write for two reasons: 1) we like to put our ideas out there, and 2) we hope that people like reading them.

Comments are everything can fall into the "I'm going to keep that comment on my story" range if there is something substancial to it. They can boost our pride, or let us know that we need a good editor, or that whatever sex demon roams around in our head has at least a few relatives out there.

Seeing the word anonymous at the beginning always gives me a pause for thought.

As for Freud, I can't say that I ever got farther than his, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Your quote sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Seurat

 

[polynices]

Comments ... can ... let us know that ... whatever sex demon roams around in our head has at least a few relatives out there.

Seurat

That, for me, is spot on. I think one of the main things Literotica offers is the freedom to express what was previously inexpressible - thoughts and fantasies that would be censored in almost any other social context.

So it's not just vanity that has me posting here.

- polynices

 

[Lady_Guenivere]

You cant make me, and George didnt write the lyrics, Ira did. Idiot. I mean, who's gonna enforce an expired copyright when everyone is dead?

Ok, Really? I was just kidding with you; you ridiculous moron. You must be one lonely mother fucker. Who the fuck would want to be around such a pompous ass.

 

[polynices]

Try Story Feedback on the forum. You may get the same comment but it won't be anonymous and would probably spark other replies.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've always been hesitant about asking for feedback there - it seems a bit pushy, somehow, and I've always assumed that there'd be far too many people clamouring for attention to make the exercise worthwhile.

However, I'll think about it. It would be very nice to get some really detailed feedback - though I know that's every author's dream.

- polynices

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

That, for me, is spot on. I think one of the main things Literotica offers is the freedom to express what was previously inexpressible - thoughts and fantasies that would be censored in almost any other social context.

So it's not just vanity that has me posting here.

- polynices

Puleeeze!

I just read a Robin Cook novel where a teeny bopper is assaulted in graphic detail, and you know Mike & Carol would shit if anyone submitted such material. Freedom of Speech my ass.

 

[polynices]

Puleeeze!

I just read a Robin Cook novel where a teeny bopper is assaulted in graphic detail, and you know Mike & Carol would shit if anyone submitted such material. Freedom of Speech my ass.

Yes, I take that point. - I've noted, as you do, that some themes that get into mainstream fiction wouldn't be allowed here. That said, not many people get to publish fiction of any kind in mainstream publishing. I understand the Literotica management's caution about subject matter - there must be a zillion agencies out there slathering at the mouth for an excuse to shut the place down. And what is offered here is at least an approximation to freedom of sexual (verbal) expression for anyone who feels a need to write.

- polynices