I had an abortion at 20...

[wife2hotblk]

Wow...what a touchy and personal topic.

Unfortunately, it is also one that has sent me into an emotional tail spin for the past six months. In July of last year, I had the bittersweet privilege of being the doula (labor assistant) to a couple, whom I now count among my best friends. They were faced with the unthinkable 'choice' to have a late termination at 24 weeks because their baby girl had a genetic defect that was 100% fatal before the age of 1. That was if she survived the birth at all. I purposely put the word 'choice' in quotes because I personally question if there are not situations in which we really do not have such a thing. Let me tell you...it was hell. Ironically, the induced labor and birth that she had to endure was an amazingly healing experience.

I stood by their side a few days later as they laid their little girl in a cold grave. I even sewed the doll sized little christening dress in which she was buried. I cut down a baby blanket so that it fit her and I crocheted booties and a cap for her tiny head and feet.

Ironically, during this whole experience I sought the comfort in my HOT blk hubby's embrace. I found out a couple of weeks later that we were pregnant. Although I was shocked, I love motherhood so much that I was soon signed up to all those weekly email updates. My husband too was excited and beating his chest...the impregnator. My biggest worry was how was I going to tell my friends that I was pregnant.

Then at 9 weeks and 2 days, I had light spotting. I was not even that worried at first. With our daughter, I had a much worse bleed at 12 weeks. But I was not taking any chances so I went to A&E to be checked out. I phoned my husband and left a message for him. By the time, he joined me at the hospital a couple of hours later, I was still waiting to be seen by the doctor.

My world began to fall apart when she casually pronounced that she could not see a baby. She doubled checked my labs, which had a positive pregnancy test blood and urine. I was panicking. In the end, she sent me down to imaging to the head of the ultrasound department. She found a sac, but no sign of a heart beat or even the baby. They tried to reassure me that perhaps I had my dates wrong and was not as far along as I thought I was. They scheduled me to come back for another ultrasound in a week...and tried to tell me not to worry.

Of course, I went home and googled it. I learned the term...blighted ovum. My baby had failed to grow, it had implanted and told my body that I was pregnant. But she had been dead for some time.

When I went back that Friday, the horror was that the doctor was so visibly pregnant that I could not bring myself to look at her. Again they could not find a heart beat or what they called a fetal pole. I ran from there as my husband scheduled an appointment for me to come back for yet another ultra sound in a week.

That weekend was the worst of my life. We had a horrible fight, including me saying some truly hateful things to my husband that I regret to this day. In the end, it was a phone call to our friends that got me through. One person understood my pain.

On Monday, I went to my GP for some help with my mental state. Unfortunately, they scheduled me with the older African doctor for whom English is not his first language. I ran from the office screaming about having a dead baby inside of me. I hid in my flat and made another call to my husband. I honestly thought that the police would be knocking on the door and taking me away from my family at any moment. Hubby came home and went to doctors' office. He straightened it all out and made an appointment for me to see the head GP, a woman my age, the next morning.

But before that 9am appointment, I began to cramp and bleed heavily. Hubby reluctantly agreed to my pleas to remain at home where I could draw what little strength I could find from our daughter. By the time, we finally saw the doctor I had soaked several pads and the worst was over...if there is such a thing.

It has been four months and thirteen days. I am on the highest dose of Prozac and see a counselor every other week. I have written stories about the experience...including this post. I have my good days, but my world has fallen apart.

So from my perspective we are all right...and wrong. Abortion or miscarriage is not the end, but it can seem like it for some of us. Babies are both common and miracle...especially for those of us whose womb yearns and calls out for life. But I know this much I hope no one ever has to face the 'choices' that we have. Thank everyone for the human and heart-felt way that we are all shairng our pain/views.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

yeah, that's what Amicus claimed as well. it's funny that the two of you, who are the most misery-laden of all the regulars here, the ones who actively hunt out reasons to hate your fellow men, are the ones who defend your desire to inflict a life of misery (by your reckoning) on the very people you seem to hate.

But the truth is that there is no "you" in this issue. What gets "flushed down the drain" is not a "you."

Youre right, abortion steals your YOU, too.

Some will argue that things change once egg and sperm combine. And whatever that thing is doesnt travel as far as it could.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's the real question. Isn't it?

No question at all, as far as I am concerned. I know human connectedness makes it all more complex than that. And I am as capable of mourning a missed potential as anyone else might be. But we really need to understand the difference between potential and actual.

Youre right, abortion steals your YOU, too.

Some will argue that things change once egg and sperm combine. And whatever that thing is doesnt travel as far as it could.

And some will have proof of that argument, no doubt?

oh, wait-- no. There is no proof for that argument.

 

[sereneone4u]

Wow...what a touchy and personal topic.

Unfortunately, it is also one that has sent me into an emotional tail spin for the past six months. In July of last year, I had the bittersweet privilege of being the doula (labor assistant) to a couple, whom I now count among my best friends. They were faced with the unthinkable 'choice' to have a late termination at 24 weeks because their baby girl had a genetic defect that was 100% fatal before the age of 1. That was if she survived the birth at all. I purposely put the word 'choice' in quotes because I personally question if there are not situations in which we really do not have such a thing. Let me tell you...it was hell. Ironically, the induced labor and birth that she had to endure was an amazingly healing experience.

I stood by their side a few days later as they laid their little girl in a cold grave. I even sewed the doll sized little christening dress in which she was buried. I cut down a baby blanket so that it fit her and I crocheted booties and a cap for her tiny head and feet.

Ironically, during this whole experience I sought the comfort in my HOT blk hubby's embrace. I found out a couple of weeks later that we were pregnant. Although I was shocked, I love motherhood so much that I was soon signed up to all those weekly email updates. My husband too was excited and beating his chest...the impregnator. My biggest worry was how was I going to tell my friends that I was pregnant.

Then at 9 weeks and 2 days, I had light spotting. I was not even that worried at first. With our daughter, I had a much worse bleed at 12 weeks. But I was not taking any chances so I went to A&E to be checked out. I phoned my husband and left a message for him. By the time, he joined me at the hospital a couple of hours later, I was still waiting to be seen by the doctor.

My world began to fall apart when she casually pronounced that she could not see a baby. She doubled checked my labs, which had a positive pregnancy test blood and urine. I was panicking. In the end, she sent me down to imaging to the head of the ultrasound department. She found a sac, but no sign of a heart beat or even the baby. They tried to reassure me that perhaps I had my dates wrong and was not as far along as I thought I was. They scheduled me to come back for another ultrasound in a week...and tried to tell me not to worry.

Of course, I went home and googled it. I learned the term...blighted ovum. My baby had failed to grow, it had implanted and told my body that I was pregnant. But she had been dead for some time.

When I went back that Friday, the horror was that the doctor was so visibly pregnant that I could not bring myself to look at her. Again they could not find a heart beat or what they called a fetal pole. I ran from there as my husband scheduled an appointment for me to come back for yet another ultra sound in a week.

That weekend was the worst of my life. We had a horrible fight, including me saying some truly hateful things to my husband that I regret to this day. In the end, it was a phone call to our friends that got me through. One person understood my pain.

On Monday, I went to my GP for some help with my mental state. Unfortunately, they scheduled me with the older African doctor for whom English is not his first language. I ran from the office screaming about having a dead baby inside of me. I hid in my flat and made another call to my husband. I honestly thought that the police would be knocking on the door and taking me away from my family at any moment. Hubby came home and went to doctors' office. He straightened it all out and made an appointment for me to see the head GP, a woman my age, the next morning.

But before that 9am appointment, I began to cramp and bleed heavily. Hubby reluctantly agreed to my pleas to remain at home where I could draw what little strength I could find from our daughter. By the time, we finally saw the doctor I had soaked several pads and the worst was over...if there is such a thing.

It has been four months and thirteen days. I am on the highest dose of Prozac and see a counselor every other week. I have written stories about the experience...including this post. I have my good days, but my world has fallen apart.

So from my perspective we are all right...and wrong. Abortion or miscarriage is not the end, but it can seem like it for some of us. Babies are both common and miracle...especially for those of us whose womb yearns and calls out for life. But I know this much I hope no one ever has to face the 'choices' that we have. Thank everyone for the human and heart-felt way that we are all shairng our pain/views.

I have faced this. In 2003, I became pregnant with twins. Less than halfway through the pregnancy, something was clearly wrong. They ran many tests and we were told that our one daughter (I was carrying identical twin daughters) would definitely die shortly after birth and that our other daughter at the very least would be born with multiple birth defects and would most likely die. The pregancy was very hard on me and they suggested I abort because of these reasons. I refused. I ended up with preeclampsia and a month before they were due, I was rushed to the hospital because my blood pressure was stroke high, I think it was 210 over 100 plus? Emily Grace did die shortly after she was born. My mother emergency baptised her and Emily went from her earthly father's arms to her Heavenly Father's arms in about an hour. I was not there because they were sewing me up, but I was able to hold her until her body grew cold.

Meghan was in NICU and we were hit with the news that she had VACTERLS Association, an acronym for mulitple physical defects. She has V-for the vertabra/rib anomalies (missing and fused ribs), the A for anal atresia (she had an imperforate anus with fistula, they basically had to make her an anus, a couple of summers ago, she did not have one), C is cardiac (She had heart surgery for 11mm hole in her heart two weeks after her anal surgery), T-is for tracheal abnormalities, E if for esophageal abnormalities R is for renal, Meghan has polycystic kidney (one functioning kidney)L is for limb deformities, S for single umbilical cord that tells them something is up.

Emily died on a Friday, we buried her the following Friday and Meg was helicoptored to a Level 3(4?) NICU. She came home four months later with a feeding tube and we had been told she would never walk, and at first that she would be mentally challenged (but that was refuted in the first week). In the first year she also had surgery for a tethered spinal cord and diagnosed with Reactive Airway Disease (like mild asthma).

Meghan turned six this past fall and she is in K5. She is in dance class, she is a Daisy, she is in Awana and she wants to start taking voice lessons and when she is old enough, guitar (have to be eight). She has many friends and boyfriends. She has a lion's heart and the energy of a pack of Labrador puppies contained inside the world's most beautiful princess.

Emily was three pounds, three ounces. She was put in doll clothes because she was so tiny. We buried her in her christening gown, with her gold cross necklace. There are very few things more horrible than looking into an infant's eyes and seeing death or picking out a coffin and headstone while they hiccup inside your womb.

Also, in those four months she was in the NICU, I never saw anyone braver or stronger than these tiny babies, some barely viable, that fought to live.

Life is sacred.

 

[sereneone4u]

Wow...what a touchy and personal topic.

Unfortunately, it is also one that has sent me into an emotional tail spin for the past six months. In July of last year, I had the bittersweet privilege of being the doula (labor assistant) to a couple, whom I now count among my best friends. They were faced with the unthinkable 'choice' to have a late termination at 24 weeks because their baby girl had a genetic defect that was 100% fatal before the age of 1. That was if she survived the birth at all. I purposely put the word 'choice' in quotes because I personally question if there are not situations in which we really do not have such a thing. Let me tell you...it was hell. Ironically, the induced labor and birth that she had to endure was an amazingly healing experience.

I stood by their side a few days later as they laid their little girl in a cold grave. I even sewed the doll sized little christening dress in which she was buried. I cut down a baby blanket so that it fit her and I crocheted booties and a cap for her tiny head and feet.

Ironically, during this whole experience I sought the comfort in my HOT blk hubby's embrace. I found out a couple of weeks later that we were pregnant. Although I was shocked, I love motherhood so much that I was soon signed up to all those weekly email updates. My husband too was excited and beating his chest...the impregnator. My biggest worry was how was I going to tell my friends that I was pregnant.

Then at 9 weeks and 2 days, I had light spotting. I was not even that worried at first. With our daughter, I had a much worse bleed at 12 weeks. But I was not taking any chances so I went to A&E to be checked out. I phoned my husband and left a message for him. By the time, he joined me at the hospital a couple of hours later, I was still waiting to be seen by the doctor.

My world began to fall apart when she casually pronounced that she could not see a baby. She doubled checked my labs, which had a positive pregnancy test blood and urine. I was panicking. In the end, she sent me down to imaging to the head of the ultrasound department. She found a sac, but no sign of a heart beat or even the baby. They tried to reassure me that perhaps I had my dates wrong and was not as far along as I thought I was. They scheduled me to come back for another ultrasound in a week...and tried to tell me not to worry.

Of course, I went home and googled it. I learned the term...blighted ovum. My baby had failed to grow, it had implanted and told my body that I was pregnant. But she had been dead for some time.

When I went back that Friday, the horror was that the doctor was so visibly pregnant that I could not bring myself to look at her. Again they could not find a heart beat or what they called a fetal pole. I ran from there as my husband scheduled an appointment for me to come back for yet another ultra sound in a week.

That weekend was the worst of my life. We had a horrible fight, including me saying some truly hateful things to my husband that I regret to this day. In the end, it was a phone call to our friends that got me through. One person understood my pain.

On Monday, I went to my GP for some help with my mental state. Unfortunately, they scheduled me with the older African doctor for whom English is not his first language. I ran from the office screaming about having a dead baby inside of me. I hid in my flat and made another call to my husband. I honestly thought that the police would be knocking on the door and taking me away from my family at any moment. Hubby came home and went to doctors' office. He straightened it all out and made an appointment for me to see the head GP, a woman my age, the next morning.

But before that 9am appointment, I began to cramp and bleed heavily. Hubby reluctantly agreed to my pleas to remain at home where I could draw what little strength I could find from our daughter. By the time, we finally saw the doctor I had soaked several pads and the worst was over...if there is such a thing.

It has been four months and thirteen days. I am on the highest dose of Prozac and see a counselor every other week. I have written stories about the experience...including this post. I have my good days, but my world has fallen apart.

So from my perspective we are all right...and wrong. Abortion or miscarriage is not the end, but it can seem like it for some of us. Babies are both common and miracle...especially for those of us whose womb yearns and calls out for life. But I know this much I hope no one ever has to face the 'choices' that we have. Thank everyone for the human and heart-felt way that we are all shairng our pain/views.

MAJOR HUGS to you, love.

I have felt mortally wounded since Emily died and have not been myself.

 

[stephen55]

Here I go again..........

Another time, another "Fools rush in..." type of thread. Oh well, I admit to being a Fool. Just don't think that I am a fool.

I remember a meeting about women's reproductive rights, back in my university days. 1892 sounds about right. Okay, it was the mid-seventies. Back then, in Canada, a woman wanting an abortion had to have her case presented to a hospital committee. (In my early days of medical practice, I was on the "Therapeutic Abortion Committee".) The university hall was packed, tensions were high, as various people trotted out the (still) usual list of pro's and con's.

One guy got up to the microphone, turned to the audience and said, "If abortion was legal when your parents were having children, half of you wouldn't be here!"

A girl got up immediately and shouted, "That's right! And we wouldn't be listening to you!"

I don't think much has changed, except that in Canada at least, women have a guaranteed right to choose, with no having to answer to anyone. Which is, I've always believed, as it should be.

As long as us mere human beings have a sex drive, there will be unplanned pregnancies. Even with the best of intentions as to contraception, pregnancies happen. A couple I know, both GP's, had an unplanned event two years after he had a vasectomy. The vasectomy was redone, by a very competent urologist, as was the first, and a few years later she was pregnant again. It can and does happen.

I don't believe in unseen higher powers and I don't believe anyone has the right to force a woman to term against her will. The decision is hers alone. Period.

Because there are all kinds of people who do believe in higher powers, and just about as many who believe the world would be a better place if only they were in charge, this debate will never go away. In Canada, there is and will be, an ongoing rant from the religious right (read: Religious Wrong) but fortunately, Canada's Parliament ignores them.

 

[sereneone4u]

Many people are prolife and they are not religious.

I have always been prolife, even when I did not believe in God.

There are consequences to one's acts and when one chooses to have sex, one of the consequences is that you might get pregnant or impregnate someone. You don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex. To me, it is ludicrous to scream about not expecting consequences to one's actions. We don't allow men that same option and I don't care if they are not the ones carrying the child, if they have responsibility, so does the woman. You do not want to raise a child, give the child up for adoption. We are not talking about a piece of tissue, we are talking about life.

 

[stephen55]

You have my deepest sympathies, Iv'e seen it more times than I care to remember

It takes me a while to compose a serious post. While I was writing the last one, wife2hotblk and sereneone4u posted their heartbreaking stories. One of the major ironies about pregnancy and childbirth is that for healthy women who never have problems conceiving or develop complications, which is most women, additional pregnancies are something to be avoided or postponed. For those women who do have problems conceiving and /or caring on until term, pregnancy is to be cherished and sought out.

I've been the family doc of many women in the second group. From the woman who finally achieved a second pregnancy after years of trying, who developed an incredibly rare complication that was threating to kill her in days and underwent an emergency hysterectomy to control her hemorrhaging, thus losing both fetus and her uterus, to the woman who became pregnant, her fourth, and then at five months went into heart failure because she had developed an incompetent mitral valve, and who chose to carry on despite the very real risk of death, and made it, I have been privileged to be part of the care of incredibly brave, determined and sometimes heartbroken women.

From the woman who had an affair, regretted it but found herself pregnant when her husband had had a vasectomy, and was in a position no one would envy, to the 15 year old rape victim who chose to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption, a woman's reproductive system can be a blessing or a curse. It depends only on her situation. Guys, don't even pretend you can understand. All us mere men can do is support our loved ones and never try to second guess a decision that we will never have to make.

 

[sereneone4u]

It takes me a while to compose a serious post. While I was writing the last one, wife2hotblk and sereneone4u posted their heartbreaking stories. One of the major ironies about pregnancy and childbirth is that for healthy women who never have problems conceiving or develop complications, which is most women, additional pregnancies are something to be avoided or postponed. For those women who do have problems conceiving and /or caring on until term, pregnancy is to be cherished and sought out.

I've been the family doc of many women in the second group. From the woman who finally achieved a second pregnancy after years of trying, who developed an incredibly rare complication that was threating to kill her in days and underwent an emergency hysterectomy to control her hemorrhaging, thus losing both fetus and her uterus, to the woman who became pregnant, her fourth, and then at five months went into heart failure because she had developed an incompetent mitral valve, and who chose to carry on despite the very real risk of death, and made it, I have been privileged to be part of the care of incredibly brave, determined and sometimes heartbroken women.

From the woman who had an affair, regretted it but found herself pregnant when her husband had had a vasectomy, and was in a position no one would envy, to the 15 year old rape victim who chose to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption, a woman's reproductive system can be a blessing or a curse. It depends only on her situation. Guys, don't even pretend you can understand. All us mere men can do is support our loved ones and never try to second guess a decision that we will never have to make.

I think you made several excellent points, Stephen. (BTW, I am a mother of six from almost 22yo to 6yo ).

That is why even though I am prolife, I understand this to be not a black and white issue, but many shades of gray as Stephen has attested to. I can say that one should not have sex if they are not wishing to be a parent, but we are human and it is not as easy, no more than it is easy to say no to many other things but also of which we must face consequences.

There is no one answer to the issue and I am so glad we can all discuss this civilly. I was really worried it was going to get ugly and I am surely not judging anyone.

 

[lance gt]

I think you made several excellent points, Stephen. (BTW, I am a mother of six from almost 22yo to 6yo ).

That is why even though I am prolife, I understand this to be not a black and white issue, but many shades of gray as Stephen has attested to. I can say that one should not have sex if they are not wishing to be a parent, but we are human and it is not as easy, no more than it is easy to say no to many other things but also of which we must face consequences.

There is no one answer to the issue and I am so glad we can all discuss this civilly. I was really worried it was going to get ugly and I am surely not judging anyone.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Many people are prolife and they are not religious.

I have always been prolife, even when I did not believe in God.

There are consequences to one's acts and when one chooses to have sex, one of the consequences is that you might get pregnant or impregnate someone. You don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex. To me, it is ludicrous to scream about not expecting consequences to one's actions. We don't allow men that same option and I don't care if they are not the ones carrying the child, if they have responsibility, so does the woman. You do not want to raise a child, give the child up for adoption. We are not talking about a piece of tissue, we are talking about life.

True, one of the consequences of having sex is that you might get pregnant. One of the consequences of getting pregnant is that you might choose to abort.

To me it is ludicrous to insist that humans do not have the means, or the right, to take these matters into our own hands, as we do every single other aspect of our lives.

We are not talking about a life, we are talking about a potential life. Most woman have over three hundred potential lives waiting in their ovaries.

Stephen55

 

[Liar]

Some will argue that things change once egg and sperm combine.

If so, God (or Mother nature, take your pick) is the biggest baby killer of them all. Because a minority of all fertilized eggs survive the first week, and is aborted naturally. I find it hard to think of spliced genomes in a tiny cellular blob as being the definition of people. It's as arbitrary a definition as anything else.

I'm not pro life. I'm pro people. I'm against the abortion of people.

 

[stephen55]

I will defend to my death.......

I think you made several excellent points, Stephen. (BTW, I am a mother of six from almost 22yo to 6yo ).

That is why even though I am prolife, I understand this to be not a black and white issue, but many shades of gray as Stephen has attested to. I can say that one should not have sex if they are not wishing to be a parent, but we are human and it is not as easy, no more than it is easy to say no to many other things but also of which we must face consequences.

There is no one answer to the issue and I am so glad we can all discuss this civilly. I was really worried it was going to get ugly and I am surely not judging anyone.

Some statesman once said words to the effect of, "I disagree with what you say but I will defend to my death your right to say it". I'm not sure that I would go quite that far, being very attached to my life, but it is good to see that this thread has not gotten ugly.

At my age, my testosterone levels aren't what they were. Sometimes I regret that and at others, I am relieved. Abstinence is certainly the Great Contraceptive but as you said, it's not easy. The Urge To Merge is simply too great to be ignored, thus, the continuance of our species.

By tossing out some unsubstantiated guesses at the number of times someone has sex, over a lifetime, and then considering the average number of children per couple, or per all of us, it seems that sex is far more designed for recreation and pleasure, than for reproduction. There in lies the rub. Why us humans are almost always in heat, (both sexes) or can voluntarily become so in as little as a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, is beyond me. Not that I'm complaining.

I've always considered myself a backwoods country doc. Once, when I removed a bullet from a woman's arm, (don't ask), I told the nurse I wanted a steel kidney basin, instead of the usual plastic one. That was so I could hear that "ting" as the bullet got tossed into the basin. I remember hearing that sound in old westerns, like "Gunsmoke".

It took me several years to realize that it wasn't my place to question why people sometimes made bad decisions. It was my place to help them through whatever difficulty they were in. Once the immediate problem was (hopefully) dealt with, then was the time to listen and offer what paltry sage advise I might have.

It was at least a decade before I really understood that the more I listened and the less I spoke, the patient seemed to feel better.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Wow.

How did you come up with such a moronic statement? Surely you didn't give it any thought. You can't actually believe this because it contradicts the rest of your post.

You're saying.... a man has no right expressing his opinion in the situation. He has no right to say anything? Yet women who get abortions make their decisions based solely on a man's position (to be a dad or not.)!?

The entire premise of your logic is flawed.

And you have no idea what I'm saying as you really didn't read what I wrote. Because what I wrote is not what you quoted in your post. ( never said what is bold in your post, not even close )

And as far as I'm concerned it's her decision to make. No one should be forced to carry a fetus to term that doesn't want too no matter how they arrived at that decision.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Just curious Stella....how many abortions is too much for one woman?

I am not trying to flame.

Just curious.

There is reason for my question.

PM me and I will explain further.

 

[amicus]

It is not with malice aforethought that I enter this discussion; rather the sharing of a lifelong pursuit to comprehend the nature of man and the evolution of thought concerning ethical and moral issues.

One should note that the abortion issue, in addition to being a moral and ethical one, is also political and emotional; further that the issue divides along political lines of thought.

Religion, in all societies of the past, provided the moral edicts and commandments that the vast majority of people followed and adhered to as guidelines for human actions and life.

Religion still provides the moral foundation for most, but since the discoveries of Darwin and others, Divine origination of the 'rights and wrongs', 'good and evils', interpretations has been challenged by objective, rational, consistent and congrent concepts or moral and immoral human actions.

Emeging from a past where human life was considered the property of the Church or the King of the Tyrant, thinking men began to explore the nature of human life, human freedom and human rights on an individual human basis.

The Church says that life is Sacred, man says that each individual has an unalienable right to his life; that possessing life gives one the right to that life.

The Church says that life begins at the moment of conception; science confirms that human life begins at the moment of conception.

Human life is the primary value from which all other values emerge, the rights to 'freedom' and the 'pursuit', or property, do not exist without the primary, fundamental, absolute right to life.

For those who seek a rational versus religious justification for your fundamental premises concerning the value of life, these basic, axiomatic or self evident truths offer a foundation.

for the two very emotional posts that brought me to tears...

Amicus

 

[Stella_Omega]

Just curious Stella....how many abortions is too much for one woman?

I am not trying to flame.

Just curious.

There is reason for my question.

PM me and I will explain further.

Umm... How can there be a hard and fast limit?

I never had another accidental pregnancy ever again.. If I had needed to have a second, I would have.

It's possible that the third might have felt like "too many" if such had come up, but I do not know.

I do remember an account of a housekeeper, in the 1920's who exclaimed; "Encore un notrè petit enfantome!" ("yet another ghost baby," in punning form) at the news of her fifth accident. The maids were a bit appalled by this...

The Church says that life begins at the moment of conception; science confirms that human life begins at the moment of conception.

No, Ami, "science" does not confirm anything of the sort. You might have read a paper that makes the claim; you have to cite sources though. That a rule of scientific discourse.

 

[Edward Teach]

It is not with malice aforethought that I enter this discussion; rather the sharing of a lifelong pursuit to comprehend the nature of man and the evolution of thought concerning ethical and moral issues.

One should note that the abortion issue, in addition to being a moral and ethical one, is also political and emotional; further that the issue divides along political lines of thought.

Religion, in all societies of the past, provided the moral edicts and commandments that the vast majority of people followed and adhered to as guidelines for human actions and life.

Religion still provides the moral foundation for most, but since the discoveries of Darwin and others, Divine origination of the 'rights and wrongs', 'good and evils', interpretations has been challenged by objective, rational, consistent and congrent concepts or moral and immoral human actions.

Emeging from a past where human life was considered the property of the Church or the King of the Tyrant, thinking men began to explore the nature of human life, human freedom and human rights on an individual human basis.

The Church says that life is Sacred, man says that each individual has an unalienable right to his life; that possessing life gives one the right to that life.

The Church says that life begins at the moment of conception; science confirms that human life begins at the moment of conception.

Human life is the primary value from which all other values emerge, the rights to 'freedom' and the 'pursuit', or property, do not exist without the primary, fundamental, absolute right to life.

For those who seek a rational versus religious justification for your fundamental premises concerning the value of life, these basic, axiomatic or self evident truths offer a foundation.

for the two very emotional posts that brought me to tears...

Amicus

What utter nonsense. You might as well have been rambling on about Elmer Fudd hunting rabbits.

 

[Guest]

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[Edward Teach]

It does have a certain - holier-than-most-everybody, Foghorn Leghorn quality about it.

There you go reading my mind again.

 

[Guest]

. . . . .

 

[Edward Teach]

Let's talk more about the facing together thing, then.

I love you.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Just gonna say....My mother had told me time and time again....If abortion was legal at the time...you would not be here. It 's something I didn't care to hear.


I believe in a woman rights to choose. But she should choose wisely.

But..I also believe...a woman AND a man need to be held accountable.

Passion is great...but it needn't negate a life for shear stupidity.

 

[Guest]

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[Stella_Omega]

Just gonna say....My mother had told me time and time again....If abortion was legal at the time...you would not be here. It 's something I didn't care to hear.


I believe in a woman rights to choose. But she should choose wisely.

But..I also believe...a woman AND a man need to be held accountable.

Passion is great...but it needn't negate a life for shear stupidity.

I will never tell that first fetus about how it wouldn't be here if abortion had been legal. Abortion was legal, and it isn't here to hear it.

But one thing my kids know-- is that they WERE SO MUCH WANTED.

Because abortion was legal when I had both of those pregnancies, too.