Underwear in Fantasy or Medieval Setting?

[rezan00]

I'm trying to write a sword and sorcery type story. But when I got to the first steamy scene with the hero and heroine, I realized that I have no idea if there are panties or bras in stories like this.

For the guys, it was always loincloth or pants or not wearing underwear at all. But I feel that the lady should have undergarments.

Do you guys know what panties and bras are called in medieval times, or should I just make the lady go commando the whole time?

Thanks.

 

[oggbashan]

I'm trying to write a sword and sorcery type story. But when I got to the first steamy scene with the hero and heroine, I realized that I have no idea if there are panties or bras in stories like this.

For the guys, it was always loincloth or pants or not wearing underwear at all. But I feel that the lady should have undergarments.

Do you guys know what panties and bras are called in medieval times, or should I just make the lady go commando the whole time?

Thanks.

In England at least, panties were a mid-Victorian innovation when crinoline cages threatened to reveal all...

Og

 

[Handley_Page]

I'm trying to write a sword and sorcery type story. But when I got to the first steamy scene with the hero and heroine, I realized that I have no idea if there are panties or bras in stories like this.

For the guys, it was always loincloth or pants or not wearing underwear at all. But I feel that the lady should have undergarments.

Do you guys know what panties and bras are called in medieval times, or should I just make the lady go commando the whole time?

Thanks.

A quick glimpse at this site ( http://historymedren.about.com/od/clothingandfabric/ss/underwear.htm ),

reveals that men wore something like underpants, and hose.

 

[oggbashan]

A quick glimpse at this site ( http://historymedren.about.com/od/clothingandfabric/ss/underwear.htm ),

reveals that men wore something like underpants, and hose.

No true Scot wore anything under a kilt.

Og

 

[voluptuary_manque]

One of the things that made court life so 'stimulating' was that the ladies didn't wear anything under those long skirts so a standing up quickie was always a possibility.

 

[Handley_Page]

One of the things that made court life so 'stimulating' was that the ladies didn't wear anything under those long skirts so a standing up quickie was always a possibility.

and a chap could always undo the cod-piece with some speed.

 

[unregistered]

 

[unregistered]

 

[R. Richard]

During the Roman occupation of Britain, there was a message back to Rome thanking them for the 'suppligari.' It took some time, but they were finally able to determine that suppligari was Roman for underwear.

Mabe the natives didn't wear underwear, but the tourists did.

 

[R. Richard]

A French woman named Herminie Cadolle was the genius behind the cups and straps. Cadolle came up with the concept in 1889, originally dubbing it the "corselet gorge." Her creation premiered at the Great Exposition in Paris and was a smash with the ladies, propelling the budding entrepreneur into a life-long career in lingerie.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

During the Roman occupation of Britain, there was a message back to Rome thanking them for the 'suppligari.' It took some time, but they were finally able to determine that suppligari was Roman for underwear.

Mabe the natives didn't wear underwear, but the tourists did.

It's possible. After all they did invent the bikini.

http://www.naktiv.net/images/std-roman-bikini.jpg

 

[Darkniciad]

You are writing a fantasy set in a world with rules not necessarily our own, ya know?

The way my fantasy world works, men are usually going commando. Women's undergarments are in the midst of a revolution. Panties have been around for a generation or so, having evolved from utilitarian garments to deal with the monthly cycle. Fashion changes are now reaching the point where the wealthy women have a variety of attractive choices that are slowly trickling down through washer-women, dressing maids, etc. to the lower classes.

Essentially, we're looking at granny panties amongst the general populace, and pre-thong styles for the rich, depending upon region.

The brassiere was essentially invented during the timeline of my writing, with only a very few even knowing about it.

You don't necessarily have to stick to real world rules when you're writing swords and sorcery. After all, nobody was hurling lightning bolts in medieval times, so the rules are already broken. Just don't stick everyone in fruit-o-the-looms, thongs, and wonder bras. Give some thought to simpler materials and manufacturing, and use what you need to make the story what you want it.

 

[Jagged]

No panties I know that for a fact. Women would wear layers, but would still be uncovered there and no bras.

Men I know less about, but I don't recall anything like we have today when I think back to the books describing Medieval life.

I do recall an editor saying she dropped stories for historical inaccuracies like that though.

 

[3113]

This from Wiki: "In the Middle Ages, western men's underwear became looser fitting. The loincloth was replaced by loose, trouser-like clothing called braies, which the wearer stepped into and then laced or tied around the waist and legs at about mid-calf. Wealthier men often wore chausses as well, which only covered the legs."

http://z.about.com/d/historymedren/1/5/9/J/2/macbiblebraies.jpg

As you can see, it's both underwear and outerwear. A poor man doesn't separate the two, not in the heat of summer as he's laboring in the fields.

As for a woman's panties , that would probably be seen as a waste of cloth unless the woman was menstruating, also as getting in the way. If you're wearing long skirts it becomes time consuming to drag them up and pull down a scrap of cloth to answer the call of nature. As for corsets and bras:

In France women wore the "Bandeau" after Caesar's conquest of Gaul. In the 12th century women wore the "basquine" which was a sort of corset in rigid fabric surrounding the waist. About a century later the gourgandine (hussy) or bodice is worn on top of a corset.

Full history of the "bra" here.

 

[al_Ussa]

That's actually very interesting 3113 as those undergarments actually resemble the sirwal that you still see worn in Egypt and Arabia to this very day. As I understand it such garments have been worn at least since the time of the Fatimids onward and probably earlier but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Sirwal.jpg

 

[al_Ussa]

Also what about the choli? Its not really a 'bra' at all but rather an outgarment sort of like a blouse worn by women in South Asia.

http://www.fashioncapital.co.uk/images/stories/vanessa%204/choli%202.jpg

I intentionally used a picture of a short one because you actually see those if you look at Mughal artwork.

http://images.exoticindiaart.com/marble/mughal_lady_ra89sm.jpg

http://www.shalincraft-india.com/images/folkart/image/icon/mr013.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_A3yTYpE7Mwc/R88KI3fHIfI/AAAAAAAAALA/dz0L3Jvfs00/s1600/miniature_painting_ragini_gunakali.jpg

 

[stephen55]

Semper ubi sub ubi

If the characters in your sword and sorcery tale speak Latin, then yes, they wear underwear.

Semper Ubi Sub Ubi



Properly translated, it reads "Always where under where".

Spoken, it says "Always wear underwear".

 

[3113]

That's actually very interesting 3113 as those undergarments actually resemble the sirwal that you still see worn in Egypt and Arabia to this very day.

Also what about the choli?

I suspect that Braies weren't seen in far northern countries which had no contact with Italy (like our Scots in kilts). It only takes a few transplants from India/Persia to Egypt to Greece to Rome and from Rome to Europe little by little to move useful clothing farther and farther and farther from home.

Also, there's only so many way to fit a cloth about the legs if one isn't taking the time to cut out patterns and sew them up. It might not be too much a stretch of the imagination to think that the one in Asia and the one in Europe came about independent of each other.

 

[unregistered]

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's not often I get to trot out my volume of "The History of Underclothes" (Willett and Cunnington, London, 1951, Dover Books edition, 1992), so let me smugly report:

Not much is known of medieval underclothes from the literature and art of the time. It is known that universal adoption of underwear didn't occur till the renaissance, and that such garments as may have been worn in the medieval period were strictly utilitarian and not meant to be seen. This despite the fact that some illustrations appear to suggest women are wearing some corset-like devices to enhance their figures.

The upper classes typically wore garments of linen to protect their skin from the rougher fabrics of the outerwear, and to protect the outer garment from skin grime. This was the original meaning of the word shirt. The shirt was also used to sleep in. Men's drawers were known in Anglo Saxon as braies, which gave rise to the word breeches (in later times applied to the outer garment (britches)). and these varied as type and construction.

Let me quote: "Saxon braies, often brightly coloured, were in effect an outer garment, only becomeing a true undergarment in the middle of the twelfth century, when they were largely concealed by the Norman tunic, Then, too, the colour interest faded, and the drawers of white linen, or of drab woollen cloth for the peasant class, became established."

Braies varied in length, but typically fell to mid-leg and were held up with a string or girdle tied around the waist, "...and because of the close fit they required a front opening."

...

"During the second half of the twelfth century, when braies became definitely an undergarment, the seat was made very much fuller, and the front opening was discarded. The legs were shortened and the stockings, made long and wide above, were pulled over them and attached by cords to the front of the braie girdle..."

"[The Smock] ...is the Saxon name for the only known undergarment belonging to women. The Normans introduced the name, "chemise". It was worn next to the skin and slipped on over the head... It was flowing, ankle length, and during the eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth centuries had long straight sleeves and a small round neck. ... Smokes were often pleated and embroidered, particularly around the neck and hem."

"After 1340, women's surface garments became close fitting so to display the shape of the figure, and sleeves were long to the wrist, molding the arm. There is no contemporary evidence of a corresponding cut in the shape of the chemise, but it is difficult not to presume that this must have been the case. Certainly in Chaucer's day the texture of some of the smocks was thin or even transparent..."

There is some evidence of women wearing a kirtle or lace up girdle over their smocks in Anglo Saxon times, and some of these might have had stays.

By the fourteenth century, a fad had begun for wearing a kind of bustle, which was loudly decried by the church.

This is a great book!

 

[Guest]

The good doctor is talking about underwear - and so early in the morning, too!

Makes me think lustful thoughts.

Oh - but only in a medieval or Renaissance sort of way.

 

[penandpaper]

It's not often I get to trot out my volume of "The History of Underclothes" (Willett and Cunnington, London, 1951, Dover Books edition, 1992), so let me smugly report:

Not much is known of medieval underclothes from the literature and art of the time. It is known that universal adoption of underwear didn't occur till the renaissance, and that such garments as may have been worn in the medieval period were strictly utilitarian and not meant to be seen. This despite the fact that some illustrations appear to suggest women are wearing some corset-like devices to enhance their figures.

The upper classes typically wore garments of linen to protect their skin from the rougher fabrics of the outerwear, and to protect the outer garment from skin grime. This was the original meaning of the word shirt. The shirt was also used to sleep in. Men's drawers were known in Anglo Saxon as braies, which gave rise to the word breeches (in later times applied to the outer garment (britches)). and these varied as type and construction.

Let me quote: "Saxon braies, often brightly coloured, were in effect an outer garment, only becomeing a true undergarment in the middle of the twelfth century, when they were largely concealed by the Norman tunic, Then, too, the colour interest faded, and the drawers of white linen, or of drab woollen cloth for the peasant class, became established."

Braies varied in length, but typically fell to mid-leg and were held up with a string or girdle tied around the waist, "...and because of the close fit they required a front opening."

...

"During the second half of the twelfth century, when braies became definitely an undergarment, the seat was made very much fuller, and the front opening was discarded. The legs were shortened and the stockings, made long and wide above, were pulled over them and attached by cords to the front of the braie girdle..."

"[The Smock] ...is the Saxon name for the only known undergarment belonging to women. The Normans introduced the name, "chemise". It was worn next to the skin and slipped on over the head... It was flowing, ankle length, and during the eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth centuries had long straight sleeves and a small round neck. ... Smokes were often pleated and embroidered, particularly around the neck and hem."

"After 1340, women's surface garments became close fitting so to display the shape of the figure, and sleeves were long to the wrist, molding the arm. There is no contemporary evidence of a corresponding cut in the shape of the chemise, but it is difficult not to presume that this must have been the case. Certainly in Chaucer's day the texture of some of the smocks was thin or even transparent..."

There is some evidence of women wearing a kirtle or lace up girdle over their smocks in Anglo Saxon times, and some of these might have had stays.

By the fourteenth century, a fad had begun for wearing a kind of bustle, which was loudly decried by the church.

This is a great book!

I would love to take a look at the library of yours Doc. So many books, so little time.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I would love to take a look at the library of yours Doc. So many books, so little time.

Oh yes. This one was upstairs between my Field Manual of Toxic Plants by the US Dept of Agriculture, and The Sexual Life of Savages by Bronilsaw Malinowski.

And just for Sarah, I'm digging out my Two Knotty Boys Showing You The Ropes: A Step-by-Step, Illustrated Guide for Tying Sensual and Decorative Rope Bondage. Want to get that Turk's Head Knot perfected before march.

 

[Guest]

And just for Sarah, I'm digging out my Two Knotty Boys Showing You The Ropes: A Step-by-Step, Illustrated Guide for Tying Sensual and Decorative Rope Bondage. Want to get that Turk's Head Knot perfected before march.

*swoon*

Be still, my hips. Er, heart.

 

[Tricialen]

*swoon*

Be still, my hips. Er, heart.

Naughty Sarahh