For anyone out there who's been published

[butters]

What were you reactions on hearing you had been, and did they change once you read what your piece had been published alongside? for better or worse? (for richer for poorer probably doesn't apply )

Did you find being choosier about what you submitted to helped? Did you find on-line zines (or magazines with an on-line presence too) helped you formulate a better idea of the kind of work being published by whom, rather than taking pot luck or spending a fortune on ordering copies of specific hard copy publications from your newsagent?

 

[bflagsst]

What were you reactions on hearing you had been, and did they change once you read what your piece had been published alongside? for better or worse? (for richer for poorer probably doesn't apply )

Did you find being choosier about what you submitted to helped? Did you find on-line zines (or magazines with an on-line presence too) helped you formulate a better idea of the kind of work being published by whom, rather than taking pot luck or spending a fortune on ordering copies of specific hard copy publications from your newsagent?

I originally found magazines that my favorite poets had been published in and really just wanted to get equivalent credits as them. Once I was published in those few magazines I wasn't sure why I wanted to have equivalent credits because those few poets were the rare exceptions of quality in those magazines. So then I decided I wanted to get published in a local poems magazine and a regional one. An ex-friend ran the local one, I thought he was a grown up, but he didn't publish my poems. I'm sure it was personal, because I submitted the same work to a much larger magazine and got them published there.

If I start a poems site I'll probably 'publish' mostly already published material that I find on different sites and magazines. Just email the poet and ask them if I can re-publish, since I don't care about the fantasy of first publishing. Almost every magazine lets the poet keep their publishing rights, and who's going to turn down a re-issue of their poem and lose x number of additional reads?

 

[Tzara]

What were you reactions on hearing you had been, and did they change once you read what your piece had been published alongside? for better or worse? (for richer for poorer probably doesn't apply )

With the first couple of acceptances, I was pretty jazzed. After a while, though, I became less excited about it, not because the other contributors' poems were bad (some were, but probably just as many were outstanding), but because I decided that I didn't like my own work--wasn't happy with it. So I basically stopped submitting things.

That's one of my sorta resolutions for the new year--try to get back to writing and submitting things, even if I'm not that crazy about the work. I think that submitting for publication makes me more serious about writing.

Did you find being choosier about what you submitted to helped? Did you find on-line zines (or magazines with an on-line presence too) helped you formulate a better idea of the kind of work being published by whom, rather than taking pot luck or spending a fortune on ordering copies of specific hard copy publications from your newsagent?

I was pretty picky about what I sent where, and tried to match the poem's (or story's--I published both poems and fiction) style to the publication. Some submissions were things I wrote specifically for theme issues. (That usually helps with me, as I need some germ of an idea on which to work.)

When I was submitting work, I had a really good acceptance rate, so I assume that the care in selection of what to submit helped. (Or I just managed to find editors who would take pretty much anything, however bad. )

Like bflagsst, I initially targeted publications that poets I knew had published in--it seemed as good a way as any to select some place to send some work to. Later on, I would pick places that I liked the journal (after scouting a lot of different places).

I think you said you had published work before. Is that correct?

For anyone thinking about trying for the first time, I think it's a really good experience, whether you are accepted or not. If nothing else, it really makes you think about what you've written and whether you are actually pleased with it or not.

Also, be aware that very few online publications send you any kind of proof sheet or galley, so it's quite common (both in my experience and in that of different friends) that your poem will end up messed up in some way, from screwed up formatting to lines being mixed up/left out.

That's kind of depressing, but another worthwhile experience, I think. Don't get too attached to your work. They're just poems, y'know. You'll write more.

 

[butters]

I originally found magazines that my favorite poets had been published in and really just wanted to get equivalent credits as them. Once I was published in those few magazines I wasn't sure why I wanted to have equivalent credits because those few poets were the rare exceptions of quality in those magazines. So then I decided I wanted to get published in a local poems magazine and a regional one. An ex-friend ran the local one, I thought he was a grown up, but he didn't publish my poems. I'm sure it was personal, because I submitted the same work to a much larger magazine and got them published there.

If I start a poems site I'll probably 'publish' mostly already published material that I find on different sites and magazines. Just email the poet and ask them if I can re-publish, since I don't care about the fantasy of first publishing. Almost every magazine lets the poet keep their publishing rights, and who's going to turn down a re-issue of their poem and lose x number of additional reads?

we all have to begin somewhere. aiming for publication in a zine showcasing your favourite poets at the time seems a bold and brave move, but one you accomplished. To be published alongside them, albeit they were the exceptions, was a worthwhile start. Meh - my first and most embarrassing was Poetry.com gawd save us But I do understand what you mean about wanting to have work 'out there' alongside others whose work shines brightly. It's human nature. Maybe your 'friend' had other agendas, maybe he had filled his space already, or your pieces didn't fit in with his current theme. Or maybe he just didn't like them - which isn't the same as calling them bad poetry. So so subjective, right?

As to your other point, so long as you make sure you quote their first pub creds (for legality-wise) once you've their permission, most will happily have their work picked up by you I shouldn't wonder. But be prepared for some rejections: depending on where they've already been published (they may consider it of superior cachet to what you're offering them) and the fact some might have to allow so many months to elapse before re-publication of a piece already under 'first rights' (often 3-6 months), it's something to accept as a possibility.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

I'm not sure if you are talking strictly about poetry, but when my non-fiction was first published, I was really excited about it. A few years later, I was embarrassed cuz I felt that what I had published was not up to standard (my standards, not others). It may have had somewhat of a negative effect in that, like I think Tzara was saying, I became extremely critical of my work. However, that in a sense has pushed me to do better. Though I can't exactly pull what was published, I am getting ready to pull my ebook and rewrite it. It desperately needs updated anyway.

When I was seeking to be published, I kinda made a game of it for myself. I wanted to see how many rejection notices that I could get. I had gotten that advice from another writer and believe it or not, it does diffuse the sting of rejection. Instead of focusing on the rejection, I was accepting it as part of putting my work out there in order to reach my goal.

It's been several years since I have even submitted anything for publication. I'll probably be going the self-publication route with non-fiction this year, but I do intend on submitting poetry for publication at some point.

 

[bflagsst]

As to your other point, so long as you make sure you quote their first pub creds (for legality-wise) once you've their permission, most will happily have their work picked up by you I shouldn't wonder. But be prepared for some rejections: depending on where they've already been published (they may consider it of superior cachet to what you're offering them) and the fact some might have to allow so many months to elapse before re-publication of a piece already under 'first rights' (often 3-6 months), it's something to accept as a possibility.

Do I have to write x poem was first published in y magazine for every re-published poem? Not that it would bother me, but when I've read the rights on the magazine submissions pages it usually explains that you can do whatever you want with your work once it gets published in their magazine. In books we put where the poems were first published, but I always thought it was a courtesy, a 'thank you' to the magazine for publishing your work.

I think I know enough quality published poets to get the ball rolling, so rejection isn't a real worry. I might just do it, have some real elementary website that's just poem after poem of the best stuff I've found.

 

[butters]

With the first couple of acceptances, I was pretty jazzed. After a while, though, I became less excited about it, not because the other contributors' poems were bad (some were, but probably just as many were outstanding), but because I decided that I didn't like my own work--wasn't happy with it. So I basically stopped submitting things.

isn't it awful when that happens? lol
some things i had published - man, we live and learn.

That's one of my sorta resolutions for the new year--try to get back to writing and submitting things, even if I'm not that crazy about the work. I think that submitting for publication makes me more serious about writing.
I was pretty picky about what I sent where, and tried to match the poem's (or story's--I published both poems and fiction) style to the publication. Some submissions were things I wrote specifically for theme issues. (That usually helps with me, as I need some germ of an idea on which to work.)

From what I've read here of yours, I would definitely encourage you to go for it.

When I was submitting work, I had a really good acceptance rate, so I assume that the care in selection of what to submit helped. (Or I just managed to find editors who would take pretty much anything, however bad. )

And yes, being picky probably did help some - shows the editors you weren't just a chancer, had maybe read at least ONE of their publications, and had BOTHERED to read the submissions guidelines. So many don't. You'd be amazed! Besides, you write well. It stands out.

Like bflagsst, I initially targeted publications that poets I knew had published in--it seemed as good a way as any to select some place to send some work to. Later on, I would pick places that I liked the journal (after scouting a lot of different places).

I think that seems to be what a lot of writers do - word of mouth is pretty important; some publishers aim higher than others. Some are all about the commercial aspects and will publish crap if that's what their target audience will eat up. Others combine the commercial aspects with a true love of promoting the art, and seek to get the best work available out there to be read and loved and to inspire.

I think you said you had published work before. Is that correct?

yes. nothing big time and I made no money from it - just free copies. I've stuff in various books (nothing on my own yet), magazines, e-zines, newspapers, various websites ... and I love the internet as that portal allowing us access to publications around the world!

For anyone thinking about trying for the first time, I think it's a really good experience, whether you are accepted or not. If nothing else, it really makes you think about what you've written and whether you are actually pleased with it or not.

This is very true. Very.
And when I was running my own site, being published wasn't by any means the gold-standard to judge yourself or others by. I came across previously unpublished writers who were wonderful wonderful poets, right up there with the best of the published I found online. And there were plenty of those already published whose works left me scratching my head as to why. One thing, just as a point of advice: I know we're all dead keen at first to see our own writing in print. There's nothing like those first sensations! However, my best advice would be DON'T be in such a rush! Hindsight's a wonderful thing and it may save you a modicum of embarrassment in years to come. But - sigh - we're only human.

Also, be aware that very few online publications send you any kind of proof sheet or galley, so it's quite common (both in my experience and in that of different friends) that your poem will end up messed up in some way, from screwed up formatting to lines being mixed up/left out.

True, again, though many do ask for anything worthy of notation be added - and then ignore that completely since they don't know how to accommodate your requests or can't be arsed, or it simply doesn't fall into the overall aesthetic layout of their page. Yes, they can publish it more or less however they like and tend to add a little small print to that effect. On my own site I did make every effort to accommodate the preferences of individuals when showcasing their work, but made clear my restrictions about fonts used etc for a look of continuity. (and my now ex's couldn't be arsed to mess about with all that stuff attitude )

That's kind of depressing, but another worthwhile experience, I think. Don't get too attached to your work. They're just poems, y'know. You'll write more.

weird, isn't it? once they leave you they take on a life of their own that you no longer have direct control over - sending your babies out into the world. Having said that, you do retain the rights to refuse to have your work edited by another in a way you don't like (so long as by subbing in the first place you've not accepted they have permission to do so!) - BUT if you refuse, they are then well within their rights to refuse to publish it. Depends on how strongly you feel about it and how good their edits might be.

 

[butters]

I'm not sure if you are talking strictly about poetry, but when my non-fiction was first published, I was really excited about it. A few years later, I was embarrassed cuz I felt that what I had published was not up to standard (my standards, not others). It may have had somewhat of a negative effect in that, like I think Tzara was saying, I became extremely critical of my work. However, that in a sense has pushed me to do better. Though I can't exactly pull what was published, I am getting ready to pull my ebook and rewrite it. It desperately needs updated anyway.

When I was seeking to be published, I kinda made a game of it for myself. I wanted to see how many rejection notices that I could get. I had gotten that advice from another writer and believe it or not, it does diffuse the sting of rejection. Instead of focusing on the rejection, I was accepting it as part of putting my work out there in order to reach my goal.

It's been several years since I have even submitted anything for publication. I'll probably be going the self-publication route with non-fiction this year, but I do intend on submitting poetry for publication at some point.

I can only speak of my own experiences of having been published and having published others (only on my website), so poetry but this thread's open to whoever wants to contribute. We all learn from eachother!

Sometimes it takes our own hindsight to push us into doing better. A knowledgeable and critical eye, if not jaundiced, can bring balance when praise might be all we're receiving from other quarters. If you can bear the task of rewriting an entire e-book, then the very best of british, girl! That's another little trap easily fallen into: the perpetual rewrites of older material. SOmetimes you just have to move onwards and upwards, or risk spending every spare moment reworking something that loses its original spark somewhere along the line. Again, all a question of balance. If I sound like I know what I'm talking about, it's a good act I only know bits and bobs - working my way through the maze same as anyone else out there.

Now, how about you stop 'intending' and actually do something about it? bloody writers! always prevaricating

 

[butters]

Do I have to write x poem was first published in y magazine for every re-published poem? Not that it would bother me, but when I've read the rights on the magazine submissions pages it usually explains that you can do whatever you want with your work once it gets published in their magazine. In books we put where the poems were first published, but I always thought it was a courtesy, a 'thank you' to the magazine for publishing your work.

I think I know enough quality published poets to get the ball rolling, so rejection isn't a real worry. I might just do it, have some real elementary website that's just poem after poem of the best stuff I've found.

When the poet first got their work published, it will depend on what they agreed to. Largely, though, it's considered a matter of courtesy to add underneath in small print "first published in....". There may be time limits on that too - the authors ought to be able to tell you. And sometimes they don't want anyone to know it was published elsewhere. The onus probably lies with them for the type of publications you intend. Oh, there's no obligation, though, to link to those other pubs. You don't want to direct traffic away from your own site if you can avoid it!

I'll look forward to reading whatever you set up, B. Reading quality work's always a pleasure.

 

[Angeline]

I've never been asked to change anything I've published or seen that it was changed when it was. And like Tzara, the first few publications thrilled me beyond belief. Over time, I've come to realize that there are places where I'm pretty sure my poems will be accepted. And while that's great for my ego, I've become pickier about where I want to submit. The thrill for me now is to get into a journal or magazine I think is a step up for me. Admittedly I haven't tried to do that for a while and right now I'm too wrapped up with a move to do it. However once we're settled I plan to really step up the poem submissions again and also get involved in what I know is a lively local poetry scene where I'm moving. I'm pretty excited about that.

 

[butters]

I've never been asked to change anything I've published or seen that it was changed when it was. And like Tzara, the first few publications thrilled me beyond belief. Over time, I've come to realize that there are places where I'm pretty sure my poems will be accepted. And while that's great for my ego, I've become pickier about where I want to submit. The thrill for me now is to get into a journal or magazine I think is a step up for me. Admittedly I haven't tried to do that for a while and right now I'm too wrapped up with a move to do it. However once we're settled I plan to really step up the poem submissions again and also get involved in what I know is a lively local poetry scene where I'm moving. I'm pretty excited about that.

I know a couple of writers who have been asked, but most of them refused and simply submitted elsewhere and got acceptances. Again, it has to depend on the value of the suggested edits and their reasoning. A very family-orientated, kind of religious pub often isn't too keen on the use of certain 'cuss words' It's great that you're constantly striving to climb - and not over the backs of others but on the merit of your own work. And yet another of us 'planning to'. hahaha. Good luck with your move - how exciting! and then get on out there again, angeline. The world's eyes need to devour all the beauty they can find, and the minds out there digest it.

 

[Angeline]

I know a couple of writers who have been asked, but most of them refused and simply submitted elsewhere and got acceptances. Again, it has to depend on the value of the suggested edits and their reasoning. A very family-orientated, kind of religious pub often isn't too keen on the use of certain 'cuss words' It's great that you're constantly striving to climb - and not over the backs of others but on the merit of your own work. And yet another of us 'planning to'. hahaha. Good luck with your move - how exciting! and then get on out there again, angeline. The world's eyes need to devour all the beauty they can find, and the minds out there digest it.

Thanks. I certainly want to and I am sure I will. I should add that I would not at all be opposed to making changes were I asked. Obviously if I had a typo or some grammatical or spelling error I'd be dying of embarrassment but of course I'd fix. Style suggestions or wording changes I'd have to agree with, but I'm pretty open-minded and if changes actually improved my poem, I'd be grateful to have learned something. What I would not agree to is something that changes the meaning or what I'm trying to accomplish in the writing. Erm maybe for like New Yorker I would lol, but everybody has a price.

 

[butters]

Thanks. I certainly want to and I am sure I will. I should add that I would not at all be opposed to making changes were I asked. Obviously if I had a typo or some grammatical or spelling error I'd be dying of embarrassment but of course I'd fix. Style suggestions or wording changes I'd have to agree with, but I'm pretty open-minded and if changes actually improved my poem, I'd be grateful to have learned something. What I would not agree to is something that changes the meaning or what I'm trying to accomplish in the writing. Erm maybe for like New Yorker I would lol, but everybody has a price.

hahahhahaa

 

[Tzara]

And yes, being picky probably did help some - shows the editors you weren't just a chancer, had maybe read at least ONE of their publications, and had BOTHERED to read the submissions guidelines. So many don't. You'd be amazed!

Actually, I wouldn't. I know some editors.

Note to anyone considering submitting for publication: Read the submissions guidelines. Twice. Then read them again. Twice. Then follow what they say.

If you don't, you're a dimwit and should expect to be rejected.

Also, unless the guidelines indicate the editor doesn't want a cover letter, include a cover letter. Something very basic is fine.

yes. nothing big time and I made no money from it - just free copies.

Repeat after me: There is no money in poetry. There is no money in poetry. There is NO money in poetry

Even Billy Collins has a day job.

True, again, though many do ask for anything worthy of notation be added - and then ignore that completely since they don't know how to accommodate your requests or can't be arsed, or it simply doesn't fall into the overall aesthetic layout of their page. Yes, they can publish it more or less however they like and tend to add a little small print to that effect. On my own site I did make every effort to accommodate the preferences of individuals when showcasing their work, but made clear my restrictions about fonts used etc for a look of continuity. (and my now ex's couldn't be arsed to mess about with all that stuff attitude )

Well, I was mainly talking about poems getting misprinted (lines left out, or lines mixed between poems, both of which have happened to me and to friends of mine).

As for specialized formatting, I meant indentations or italic font (mainly the latter), which is pretty darn standard, but sometimes lost (I think usually because of submitting as ASCII text).

Those are more of a "gee, I wish they'd done it the way I wanted but, hey, it's in print and I won't complain" kind of thing. The out-and-out changes that have been made to my poems have always been extremely minor.

 

[Tzara]

Do I have to write x poem was first published in y magazine for every re-published poem? Not that it would bother me, but when I've read the rights on the magazine submissions pages it usually explains that you can do whatever you want with your work once it gets published in their magazine. In books we put where the poems were first published, but I always thought it was a courtesy, a 'thank you' to the magazine for publishing your work.

I think I know enough quality published poets to get the ball rolling, so rejection isn't a real worry. I might just do it, have some real elementary website that's just poem after poem of the best stuff I've found.

My experience is most journals appreciate acknowledgement when a poem is republished, and most journals that accept previously published poems (there aren't all that many) want to know the previous publication credit and will list it when they publish the poem. If you don't want to do it with the individual poems in your journal, you might have the author include the credit in whatever bio section you have (assuming you have one).

Or not. Assuming the original publication was first serial rights or first online rights, I don't think you have to do anything if you don't want to. I think one journal (which doesn't exist anymore) had me sign something saying I would credit them on any republication.

But, since my only copy of those poems was on a hard drive that crashed I ain't worrying about that.

 

[Tzara]

Thanks. I certainly want to and I am sure I will. I should add that I would not at all be opposed to making changes were I asked. Obviously if I had a typo or some grammatical or spelling error I'd be dying of embarrassment but of course I'd fix. Style suggestions or wording changes I'd have to agree with, but I'm pretty open-minded and if changes actually improved my poem, I'd be grateful to have learned something. What I would not agree to is something that changes the meaning or what I'm trying to accomplish in the writing. Erm maybe for like New Yorker I would lol, but everybody has a price.

Actually, one of the best publishing experiences I had was with an editor who wanted to make several (again, fairly minor) changes to the poem. These were things like how to format an em dash, whether "spike-heeled" or "spiked-heel" was correct, and things like that. She let me make my case, told me we could print how I wanted if I really, really wanted to, but definitely implied she wanted to make the changes.

We made the changes.

I learned a lot, though, even if I'm still not convinced she was right.

 

[butters]

Actually, one of the best publishing experiences I had was with an editor who wanted to make several (again, fairly minor) changes to the poem. These were things like how to format an em dash, whether "spike-heeled" or "spiked-heel" was correct, and things like that. She let me make my case, told me we could print how I wanted if I really, really wanted to, but definitely implied she wanted to make the changes.

We made the changes.

I learned a lot, though, even if I'm still not convinced she was right.

get a good editor and your poem's got a good friend.

 

[bflagsst]

get a good editor and your poem's got a good friend.

An editor is essential for prose, but for poetry? It's so intricate, anything an editor does would be like someone coming up to a painter while they're working and sticking their thumb on the wet canvas. A good editor is helpful for arranging the order of poems, picking and choosing which should be in a manuscript. But does anyone regularly rely on an editor to influence their poems?

Spacing and formatting errors seem to be the main mistakes of Internet based poetry presentations. Stuff they don't really do on purpose, but then when you tell them about it they don't bother fixing the error.

 

[Angeline]

Actually, one of the best publishing experiences I had was with an editor who wanted to make several (again, fairly minor) changes to the poem. These were things like how to format an em dash, whether "spike-heeled" or "spiked-heel" was correct, and things like that. She let me make my case, told me we could print how I wanted if I really, really wanted to, but definitely implied she wanted to make the changes.

We made the changes.

I learned a lot, though, even if I'm still not convinced she was right.

Yes I would be very open to those kind of suggestions or really any that help me learn something. I think learning is the highest priority for me in all things, a defining thing about me.

I am very good with em dashes and other style things from the editing though I am certainly capable of stupid mistakes or missing something. I'm a way better editor than proofreader.

 

[Angeline]

An editor is essential for prose, but for poetry? It's so intricate, anything an editor does would be like someone coming up to a painter while they're working and sticking their thumb on the wet canvas. A good editor is helpful for arranging the order of poems, picking and choosing which should be in a manuscript. But does anyone regularly rely on an editor to influence their poems?

Spacing and formatting errors seem to be the main mistakes of Internet based poetry presentations. Stuff they don't really do on purpose, but then when you tell them about it they don't bother fixing the error.

A good editor should try to understand the genre, and expecially in poetry, one must remember that poets may do things intentionally that would be considered "wrong" in prose. But a good editor also should know that dialogue with the author is most important, so always ask whether they meant what may not look right to you.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

The only things I've had published have been in articles for technical journals, so likely different rules.
I've never had one accepted the first time - always at least one revision and resubmission, which I gather is the norm.
They all insist that they have exclusive publication rights to the work - it cannot have been published elsewhere or be published elsewhere.
Sometimes I get a galley proof to check before they publish.
They don't change any words, but details of how they handle figures, captions and tables are part of their layout game.

 

[Tzara]

Yes I would be very open to those kind of suggestions or really any that help me learn something. I think learning is the highest priority for me in all things, a defining thing about me.

I am very good with em dashes and other style things from the editing though I am certainly capable of stupid mistakes or missing something. I'm a way better editor than proofreader.

Our contretemps on the em dash was about whether it should be surrounded by spaces or not. I quote Wikipedia: "According to most American sources (e.g., The Chicago Manual of Style) and to some British sources (e.g., The Oxford Guide to Style), an em dash should always be set closed (not surrounded by spaces)." That was my argument. She preferred an open set: "But the practice in some parts of the English-speaking world, also the style recommended by The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage (due to the narrow width of newspaper columns), sets it open (separates it from its surrounding words by using spaces  or hair spaces (U+200A)) when it is being used parenthetically. Some writers, finding the em dash unappealingly long, prefer to use an open-set en dash. This "space, en dash, space" sequence is also the predominant style in German and French typography."

We also argued (I mean, discussed ) the placement of the leading dash in an enclosed phrase (on the line where the break occurs, or on the line which continues after the break?), to no better resolution.

It was fun. Really. I cared, but didn't care, about the result, if that makes sense. What was great was that she cared, and would argue the point rather than dictate.

Oh. That "spike-heeled/spiked-heel" thing? Though Google seemed to support her, I ran across an example later by a major poet (I want to say it was Sharon Olds, but might be wrong) that used the form I originally used.

You fight certain things. You give up on certain things. When you get yourself a book contract, maybe you fight harder.

Or something.






Are you two finally moving to Asheville? (It's Asheville, right?)

Congratulations.

Er, congrats wherever you're moving, for whatever reason. Hope you're warmer, anyway.

 

[Tzara]

The only things I've had published have been in articles for technical journals, so likely different rules.
I've never had one accepted the first time - always at least one revision and resubmission, which I gather is the norm.
They all insist that they have exclusive publication rights to the work - it cannot have been published elsewhere or be published elsewhere.
Sometimes I get a galley proof to check before they publish.
They don't change any words, but details of how they handle figures, captions and tables are part of their layout game.

I've published in technical journals as well (in my case, in psychology). Very different thing. The concept of republication basically doesn't make sense for academic journals, for example. (What would be the point? You've established priority with first publication, which is what you're shooting for.) My experience was that we got galleys, but only to correct the text, to make sure what we said was what we said.

Literary text is (or, at least, can be) very different: We want to say things in a certain way. How we say it is as important, or even more important, than what we say.

Unscientific, big time. But, um, trendy.

 

[Angeline]

Our contretemps on the em dash was about whether it should be surrounded by spaces or not. I quote Wikipedia: "According to most American sources (e.g., The Chicago Manual of Style) and to some British sources (e.g., The Oxford Guide to Style), an em dash should always be set closed (not surrounded by spaces)." That was my argument. She preferred an open set: "But the practice in some parts of the English-speaking world, also the style recommended by The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage (due to the narrow width of newspaper columns), sets it open (separates it from its surrounding words by using spaces  or hair spaces (U+200A)) when it is being used parenthetically. Some writers, finding the em dash unappealingly long, prefer to use an open-set en dash. This "space, en dash, space" sequence is also the predominant style in German and French typography."

We also argued (I mean, discussed ) the placement of the leading dash in an enclosed phrase (on the line where the break occurs, or on the line which continues after the break?), to no better resolution.

It was fun. Really. I cared, but didn't care, about the result, if that makes sense. What was great was that she cared, and would argue the point rather than dictate.

Oh. That "spike-heeled/spiked-heel" thing? Though Google seemed to support her, I ran across an example later by a major poet (I want to say it was Sharon Olds, but might be wrong) that used the form I originally used.

You fight certain things. You give up on certain things. When you get yourself a book contract, maybe you fight harder.

Or something.






Are you two finally moving to Asheville? (It's Asheville, right?)

Congratulations.

Er, congrats wherever you're moving, for whatever reason. Hope you're warmer, anyway.

I think (but not sure cuz I don't have it in front of me) that The Chicago Manual of Style recommends using the en dash when modifying a noun (in those cases in which a dash would be called for at all), and the em dash is used more for parenthetical breaks and exclamations (like, "ah ha--"). And those are sort of loose rules with many other exceptions depending on various usages. And as I see you discovered, there's a lot of different style manuals, which all have their adherents. And they often don't agree. And yes there are also cases where the length of the parenthetical and whether or not it's quoted or dialogue, for example, will determine whether it's used at the end of one line or the beginning of the next.

You can make yourself crazy over this stuff. Where I worked we had a sort of hierarchy of styles that just got ridiculous. Use the house (company) style manual and if we don't have a rule, check the Government Printing Office style manual or the APA manual or Chicago or NYT or MLA. And the hierarchy would change depending on who was ultimately publishing it (my company, government office, individual in research journal, newsarticle, etc.). My mentor was this very eccentric Princeton Quaker lady (a church lady variation) who, when I'd ask "What now?" would look over her glasses and say "It depends what you had for breakfast this morning."

Editing is a fussy fussy business. But it is a wonderful opportunity to play with words all day.

 

[butters]

An editor is essential for prose, but for poetry? It's so intricate, anything an editor does would be like someone coming up to a painter while they're working and sticking their thumb on the wet canvas. A good editor is helpful for arranging the order of poems, picking and choosing which should be in a manuscript. But does anyone regularly rely on an editor to influence their poems?

Spacing and formatting errors seem to be the main mistakes of Internet based poetry presentations. Stuff they don't really do on purpose, but then when you tell them about it they don't bother fixing the error.

A good editor should try to understand the genre, and expecially in poetry, one must remember that poets may do things intentionally that would be considered "wrong" in prose. But a good editor also should know that dialogue with the author is most important, so always ask whether they meant what may not look right to you.

as with any genre, there will be good editors and bad, and plenty who're workaday editors with little interest in your writing other than to make sure it's spelled correctly. I'm not saying find yourself a specific editor, but a good friend with a good eye, a feel for your work and for poetry in general can sometimes help by making suggestions that we're too close to our own work to see - such as dropping a particular line we are too fond of but without which the poem might work tons better. Guess it depends on where you are as a writer, and how willing you are to listen to outside suggestions. Personally, I find I can take on board other's ideas while I'm writing something (though workshopping's not a thing i often do), but once happy with what i've got down then i find it hard to change things about too close to completion. That's when time helps lend a better perspective for me. I'd be surprised if any did regularly rely on an editor to influence their work - what i really meant there was that a sympathetic editor might help make that odd suggestion that will improve your gem, whereas a poor editor won't look beyond the mechanics of anything presented them. I suppose time is a great restriction too. But a good editor is gold dust.