Post-feminism and BDSM

[ataxia.girl]

No, because the sexes are different, in ways sufficiently consistant to be generalized. It's likely that society will always treat men and women differently. The question is which of those different treatments are reasonable and which are not, and in the case of the later, what to do about it.

Not all problems have solutions.

i've actually always said this about the female condition.

A uterus is a handicap of sorts and it baffles me that women will try to claim it isn't. It freaking bleeds once a month and becomes a physical burden when it is growing babies. i'm not saying all that isn't worth it or beautiful or whatever but facts are facts. For the human race to continue women have to have babies because they are the only ones who can. Whether they are happy about it or not is irrelevant to my point.

Endometriosis, cervical cancer, ovarian cancer, uterine fibroids, dysmenorrhea, ectopic pregnancy, risky pregancy and on and on... and i'm sorry but boobs aren't exactly convenient either.

That so called "feminists" would disparage women for exercising feminine power is absolutely beyond me. i'm not a man. Why should i play his game by his rules unless i have to, or just want to, when it is many times so much easier to achieve my objective when i don't.

That men have convinced women it is unethical\immoral\passive-agressive etc to exercise feminine power to get what a she wants is really the only thread of power they have left and it will unravel. It is already happening. The feminists promoted it for awhile but that generation of feminism is being replaced. In my mind power is power and i'll wield whatever powers i've been granted or gained be they physical, intellectual or sexual.

i think its awesome that women of the past did what it took to gain what they did for women. i take full advantage of it and i bat my lashes and show my cleavage freely if i believe it will be to my advantage. They did a lot of work for which i am now reaping the benefit. i simply no longer feel it is in a woman's best interest to continue to march on pretending we're all the the same. i think that was necessary for a time in order to gain even theoretical legal equality but i also think that stance has outlived its usefulness.

At this point the most feminist thing a woman can do is wrestle the definition of femininity from the last vestiges of the patriarchy and make it her own. Its time to start figuring out what it really is to be feminine again and put the mystery and uncertainty back into it. Controlling those mythical, chaotic, and capricious forces is part of feminine power, power men have sought to control and basically succeeded in controlling during most of human history.

More women are getting college degrees than men. Women are packing the middle managerial positions and the bureaucracy and making huge strides in the medical and legal communities and some of us are smart enough to use those positions to wage a slow but steady war against the status quo. i do it at work all the time. Its amazing what you can accomplish when you have the power of the paperwork and the process. The big boys are out on the golf course making the "big" decisions meanwhile the generation of men coming up after them believe in equality of the sexes. They participate willingly in processes women control in the workplace and that is a big deal why? Because what it ultimately means is that IF women can find and own femininity again they will have the power to insert its effects and values into the machines of business, government and basically every facet of society where it used to be, or still is, absent.

Time will tell how it will all play out. In general i think men and women will become sexually polarized again but this time with a greater degree of equality of choice and self determination.

 

[Netzach]

What if you don't *feel* capricious, mysterious, or incapacitated by your uterus? This uterus/menses magic woo feminism has had a long standing tradition, especially among separatists. I'm enough of a tomboy that I can't even locate myself in that world, I do better in the gender spectrum community as "slightly genderfucked, gender playful, androgyne-femme."

The gender I've always felt most affiliated with is "somewhere in the middle."

I think I'd last in a separatist colony about 2.6 seconds. Hence I've always defined as feminist with a small f, not a big F.

I've been accused of accumulating too much internalized patriarchy, but I've always felt like "person with internal genitals who has learned how to apply makeup". Womanly is something I get paid for.

 

[PertPerth]

The gender I've always felt most affiliated with is "somewhere in the middle."

I can totally relate to that. I have heard the words "you should have been born a boy" not to realise that, while I put on lipstick every day, I often "think like a guy".

The part of feminism I'm grateful for is that it has given women worth - we are now a valuable part of society (well, at least where I live we are). I have read too many stories not to realise how much things have changed. I recall one where a woman was raped and butchered, murdered in her home in front of her children, only to have the man who killed her not be prosecuted. When the same man stole a goat, he was instantly convicted as a theif, and had his hands cut off.

 

[ataxia.girl]

What if you don't *feel* capricious, mysterious, or incapacitated by your uterus? This uterus/menses magic woo feminism has had a long standing tradition, especially among separatists. I'm enough of a tomboy that I can't even locate myself in that world, I do better in the gender spectrum community as "slightly genderfucked, gender playful, androgyne-femme."

The gender I've always felt most affiliated with is "somewhere in the middle."

I think I'd last in a separatist colony about 2.6 seconds. Hence I've always defined as feminist with a small f, not a big F.

I've been accused of accumulating too much internalized patriarchy, but I've always felt like "person with internal genitals who has learned how to apply makeup". Womanly is something I get paid for.

i don't think the uterus has much to do with the magic. The magic is having, or being, what men want... oh and exploiting the fact that they were raised by a mother. Its about recognizing there are chinks in the masculine armor and not being afraid to stick the knife in.

Its mysterious and capricious because it is virtually impossible to contain it legally and that is frightening. Why do you think it is so important to convince women that wielding feminine power is weak, wrong and somehow underhanded?

The last feminist frontier for me would probably be to get sex work legalized.

i think your knee-jerk distaste for the feminine is precisely what i mean by women taking back the very definition of what feminine is. i am anything but a delicate flower.

You as an individual may not feel handicapped by a uterus but i really don't see how that argument can be made for the female sex in general. i've had an accidental ectopic pregnancy and ended up in emergency surgery. Approximately 100,000 ectopic pregnancies occur each year in the US. How many men end up in emergency surgery over an ejaculation that went bad?

Interesting that female sterilization itself is putting women in danger of ectopic pregnancy when the choice of sterilization is supposed to be liberating.

Unintended Pregnancy Prevention: Female Sterilization: Ectopic Pregnancy

 

[Netzach]

I can totally relate to that. I have heard the words "you should have been born a boy" not to realise that, while I put on lipstick every day, I often "think like a guy".

The part of feminism I'm grateful for is that it has given women worth - we are now a valuable part of society (well, at least where I live we are). I have read too many stories not to realise how much things have changed. I recall one where a woman was raped and butchered, murdered in her home in front of her children, only to have the man who killed her not be prosecuted. When the same man stole a goat, he was instantly convicted as a theif, and had his hands cut off.

See, I'm not convinced that a lot of things have changed. Take a short flight to most places in the world and that hasn't changed at all.

Change isn't something that has to be air-dropped in by westerners, thankfully, it's something that's happening in small fits and starts spearheaded by women who don't have a lot to campaign on. I try to track these things and support those efforts monetarily inasmuch as I can.

So when people talk about the vile manhating blah blah whatever, I tend to challenge it, then move on to more important issues. Most people, men and women alike are pouring way too much energy into cosmetic and symbolic non-issues when women's rights are concerned. No one seems to understand how good they have it and how dire the whole thing remains. It's not some cute remnant of the past.

 

[Netzach]

i don't think the uterus has much to do with the magic. The magic is having, or being, what men want... oh and exploiting the fact that they were raised by a mother. Its about recognizing there are chinks in the masculine armor and not being afraid to stick the knife in.

Its mysterious and capricious because it is virtually impossible to contain it legally and that is frightening. Why do you think it is so important to convince women that wielding feminine power is weak, wrong and somehow underhanded?

The last feminist frontier for me would probably be to get sex work legalized.

i think your knee-jerk distaste for the feminine is precisely what i mean by women taking back the very definition of what feminine is. i am anything but a delicate flower.

You as an individual may not feel handicapped by a uterus but i really don't see how that argument can be made for the female sex in general. i've had an accidental ectopic pregnancy and ended up in emergency surgery. Approximately 100,000 ectopic pregnancies occur each year. How many men end up in emergency surgery over an ejaculation that went bad?

I've had DVT, and Crohn's as well as an ovarian cyst. There are a million ways my body can fuck itself up, reproductive organs just a third of the fun. Because of this, I have empathy for any man whose body is fucked up in capacities similar to mine. When I'm reading about a guy who has 2 feet of bowel left, I don't feel like he's got something on me because of his dick. I don't really care if the reason is ectopic pregnancy, work-related injury or disease, AS (which mostly men get, is the spine now a curse?) or whatever. Sick is sick and deserves accommodation and compassion.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I've had DVT, and Crohn's as well as an ovarian cyst. There are a million ways my body can fuck itself up, reproductive organs just a third of the fun. Because of this, I have empathy for any man whose body is fucked up in capacities similar to mine. When I'm reading about a guy who has 2 feet of bowel left, I don't feel like he's got something on me because of his dick. I don't really care if the reason is ectopic pregnancy, work-related injury or disease, AS (which mostly men get, is the spine now a curse?) or whatever. Sick is sick and deserves accommodation and compassion.

i'm not aware i was intimating that men should not be given accommodated or compassion when they get sick. i would venture to bet there are more medical complications related to the female reproductive system than the male reproductive organs. It is difficult for me to understand how this does not amount to at least higher likelihood or of medical problems as a direct result of gender.

i'm not actually asking for universal accommodation for women. i agree with you. Sick is sick and when a woman gets sick she should get accommodation. If this means more women get accommodation than men then so be it.

my issue is more to do with the acceptance of the idea that there are behaviors and tactics to get results which have traditionally been labeled passive-aggressive, weak, underhanded and "bad" because they exploit the power women can have over men.

In truth i am more of an anarchist than a feminist.

 

[Netzach]

i'm not aware i was intimating that men should not be given accommodated or compassion when they get sick. i would venture to bet there are more medical complications related to the female reproductive system than the male reproductive organs. It is difficult for me to understand how this does not amount to at least higher likelihood or of medical problems as a direct result of gender.

i'm not actually asking for universal accommodation for women. i agree with you. Sick is sick and when a woman gets sick she should get accommodation. If this means more women get accommodation than men then so be it.

my issue is more to do with the acceptance of the idea that there are behaviors and tactics to get results which have traditionally been labeled passive-aggressive, weak, underhanded and "bad" because they exploit the power women can have over men.

In truth i am more of an anarchist than a feminist.

Ah. Well, I do think a lot of the discomfort with those modes of excercising power is because the actual net effects are not necessarily as long-lasting, the power can be usurped so easily, it's an extremely precarious version of power. I don't think it's a BAD thing to use it at all, but I do think it's a bad thing to become complacent in it, because it's a power that relies on men, defines itself in relation to them. I do think that in recognizing it, it's important not to suggest that women should have to be content with it alone. And if you're not het, it's another relationship to the magic. You only use that charm, wave that wand, when you REALLY have to, because it's often not worth the cost.

It's a power I use every day to some extent to make a very increasingly comfortable livelihood. But I definitely DEFINITELY have had to process it and not let it get my head screwed up. I spent a couple of years letting my ego swell because I could do this really neat trick, letting that neat trick define me. Maybe that works for some people, but I tell you, it almost made me insane. I had to find some other modes of power and some other things besides power to take up my time.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Ah. Well, I do think a lot of the discomfort with those modes of excercising power is because the actual net effects are not necessarily as long-lasting, the power can be usurped so easily, it's an extremely precarious version of power. I don't think it's a BAD thing to use it at all, but I do think it's a bad thing to become complacent in it, because it's a power that relies on men, defines itself in relation to them. I do think that in recognizing it, it's important not to suggest that women should have to be content with it alone. And if you're not het, it's another relationship to the magic. You only use that charm, wave that wand, when you REALLY have to, because it's often not worth the cost.

It's a power I use every day to some extent to make a very increasingly comfortable livelihood. But I definitely DEFINITELY have had to process it and not let it get my head screwed up. I spent a couple of years letting my ego swell because I could do this really neat trick, letting that neat trick define me. Maybe that works for some people, but I tell you, it almost made me insane.

Yeah i wholeheartedly agree. It is not a substitute for skill, experience, talent, education, etc etc etc. i tend only to see it as a possible equalizer for the burden the female sex as a whole shares in being the bearers of children. You have chosen not to as an individual which i celebrate and support as i celebrate and support women who choose to. It doesn't change the fact however, that as a gender we carry a greater share of the reproductive process.

 

[Netzach]

Yeah i wholeheartedly agree. It is not a substitute for skill, experience, talent, education, etc etc etc. i tend only to see it as a possible equalizer for the burden the female sex as a whole shares in being the bearers of children. You have chosen not to as an individual which i celebrate and support as i celebrate and support women who choose to. It doesn't change the fact however, that as a gender we carry a greater share of the reproductive process.

Yeah, I just don't like the fact that your power can be jacked out from under you completely by the new 20 year old if it's the thing you're investing in. Women do share the greater part of the reproductive process, absolutely. I'm also a believer that feminism takes the blame for a lot of the rise of corporate-ism. In other words, I'm not sure that the pressure to "do it all" comes purely from feminism, but out of capital necessity.

When being in the workplace has stretched demands on people to the point where two people working and taking care of kids alike are stretched to the max, something is wrong. The something might not be that women want to be in the workplace, but the workplace, period.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Yeah, I just don't like the fact that your power can be jacked out from under you completely by the new 20 year old if it's the thing you're investing in. Women do share the greater part of the reproductive process, absolutely. I'm also a believer that feminism takes the blame for a lot of the rise of corporate-ism. In other words, I'm not sure that the pressure to "do it all" comes purely from feminism, but out of capital necessity.

When being in the workplace has stretched demands on people to the point where two people working and taking care of kids alike are stretched to the max, something is wrong. The something might not be that women want to be in the workplace, but the workplace, period.

Also agreed. my husband and i have talked about this at length. It pisses him off that a household used to be able to function with one bread winner and now because women "want to work" a household suddenly NEEDS 2 working adults or at least a highly curtailed lifestyle to make one income work.

WTF?

my husband would actually love to work part time or not at all and he's great with the kids but we can't afford it and send them to the school we want to send them to, all the extra curricular activities, travel we think is important for them and us, and we like to entertain. We throw rockin family parties in the summer where the kids all run wild and swim while the parents lounge around, drink beer, and generally take a load off. Our home is quite modest for our income because we tend not to spend our money on amassing more stuff. Pretty much everyone in our neighborhood has nicer furniture, newer and snazzier electronics, newer homes, newer cars (we only buy used) than we do even though we probably make more money on average. Our house was built in '69 and a lot of the fixtures and even carpet are original. In '69 it was top of the line so it has held up and it just hasn't been a priority for us to update it much. The money goes elsewhere. We do live on an acre with a pool but are surrounded by newer cookie cutter developments.

Anyway i'm getting off topic.

i would be inclined to agree that feminism and more and more women working enabled the current state of affairs where most households now need 2 incomes. Whether they "need" it or not is debatable but unless one partner is making some pretty good cash both have to work.

 

[YourCaptor]

That so called "feminists" would disparage women for exercising feminine power is absolutely beyond me. i'm not a man. Why should i play his game by his rules unless i have to, or just want to, when it is many times so much easier to achieve my objective when i don't.

That men have convinced women it is unethical\immoral\passive-agressive etc to exercise feminine power to get what a she wants is really the only thread of power they have left and it will unravel. It is already happening. The feminists promoted it for awhile but that generation of feminism is being replaced. In my mind power is power and i'll wield whatever powers i've been granted or gained be they physical, intellectual or sexual.

I always thought feminism was humanism with a focus on womens rights.

It's not about being something, its about having equal opportunity.

To play up your sex appeal does not result in equal opportunity. That's like, say me and you are competing for a job and I use my physical strength to beat you till you give it up.

It's about stopping exploitation, removing the usage of unfair advantages. Only putting head to head the skill that is required in the end.

Or at least that was my impression.

What if you don't *feel* capricious, mysterious, or incapacitated by your uterus? This uterus/menses magic woo feminism has had a long standing tradition, especially among separatists. I'm enough of a tomboy that I can't even locate myself in that world, I do better in the gender spectrum community as "slightly genderfucked, gender playful, androgyne-femme."

The gender I've always felt most affiliated with is "somewhere in the middle."

In my personality psychology course we discussed androgyny. It was a very small segment, but at least it has mention, hopefully it will receive more attention in the future.

Basically the modern thing goes, masculinity and femininity are not poles on a continuum, they are separate qualities. Some have a lot of one, some have few of one, others have a mixture of both.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I always thought feminism was humanism with a focus on womens rights.

It's not about being something, its about having equal opportunity.

LOL

Depends on the feminist my friend. Some feminists believe in female superiority and want to take over the world. i'm in their camp but i'm not dumb enough to really believe we are superior or that we will take over. i just like trying.

Men took whatever they could get and have orchestrated history for a very long time. Now i want to and i don't expect if i, or those like me, were to succeed that it would be any less messy or any more fair. Our names would just be in the history books more often along with all the blood and misery.

i'm a vengeful girl.

 

[where]

Nope. The 'opponents' had nothing to do with it. Until recently, for a period of about 25 years, they had little voice and were routinely shouted down. The rest of the feminists allowed the fringers to gain control of the message and become its public face, starting in the late 80s.



But they've allowed the haters and shriekers and fakes (the later being by far the largest group in the bad actor category) to become their public face, so completely that the word 'feminist' is not even associated in the public mind with the above people.

you really need to get a better overview of the women's movement than this. it was not like that at all. Men have systematically undermined the feminist movement since it's inception with Mary Wollsoncraft and they continue to do so today in the boardrooms, universities, schoolrooms and bedrooms.

You're digging the hole deeper with that silly comparison.

That wouldn't be remotely a comparable action.

A plausible male equivalent would be wearing a dress in public, a short skirt, or a woman's swimsuit. Something along those lines. And yes, jumping up and down in outrage at that would be just as silly, and there would be a fringe of (mostly) right-wing kooks who would do it.

And yes, it would be funny under the right circumstances if nobody was forced.

no... that is not a comparable action at all. a comparable action would be the man bending over and getting a spanking. the 'comparison' you made perfectly illustrates your view.

i've actually always said this about the female condition.

A uterus is a handicap of sorts and it baffles me that women will try to claim it isn't. It freaking bleeds once a month and becomes a physical burden when it is growing babies. i'm not saying all that isn't worth it or beautiful or whatever but facts are facts. For the human race to continue women have to have babies because they are the only ones who can. Whether they are happy about it or not is irrelevant to my point.

Endometriosis, cervical cancer, ovarian cancer, uterine fibroids, dysmenorrhea, ectopic pregnancy, risky pregancy and on and on... and i'm sorry but boobs aren't exactly convenient either.

That so called "feminists" would disparage women for exercising feminine power is absolutely beyond me. i'm not a man. Why should i play his game by his rules unless i have to, or just want to, when it is many times so much easier to achieve my objective when i don't.

That men have convinced women it is unethical\immoral\passive-agressive etc to exercise feminine power to get what a she wants is really the only thread of power they have left and it will unravel. It is already happening. The feminists promoted it for awhile but that generation of feminism is being replaced. In my mind power is power and i'll wield whatever powers i've been granted or gained be they physical, intellectual or sexual.

i think its awesome that women of the past did what it took to gain what they did for women. i take full advantage of it and i bat my lashes and show my cleavage freely if i believe it will be to my advantage. They did a lot of work for which i am now reaping the benefit. i simply no longer feel it is in a woman's best interest to continue to march on pretending we're all the the same. i think that was necessary for a time in order to gain even theoretical legal equality but i also think that stance has outlived its usefulness.

At this point the most feminist thing a woman can do is wrestle the definition of femininity from the last vestiges of the patriarchy and make it her own. Its time to start figuring out what it really is to be feminine again and put the mystery and uncertainty back into it. Controlling those mythical, chaotic, and capricious forces is part of feminine power, power men have sought to control and basically succeeded in controlling during most of human history.

More women are getting college degrees than men. Women are packing the middle managerial positions and the bureaucracy and making huge strides in the medical and legal communities and some of us are smart enough to use those positions to wage a slow but steady war against the status quo. i do it at work all the time. Its amazing what you can accomplish when you have the power of the paperwork and the process. The big boys are out on the golf course making the "big" decisions meanwhile the generation of men coming up after them believe in equality of the sexes. They participate willingly in processes women control in the workplace and that is a big deal why? Because what it ultimately means is that IF women can find and own femininity again they will have the power to insert its effects and values into the machines of business, government and basically every facet of society where it used to be, or still is, absent.

Time will tell how it will all play out. In general i think men and women will become sexually polarized again but this time with a greater degree of equality of choice and self determination.

This is great.

but what about the women who don't have physical beauty or who are old? What then? is it going to be OK when you get old and your tits are sagging down to your belly for you to be cast aside and all the hard work you have done is to mean nothing? Or, perhaps you will start on an endless round of surgury to maintain the fiction of man's sexual plaything?

 

[YourCaptor]

LOL

Depends on the feminist my friend. Some feminists believe in female superiority and want to take over the world. i'm in their camp but i'm not dumb enough to really believe we are superior or that we will take over. i just like trying.

Men took whatever they could get and have orchestrated history for a very long time. Now i want to and i don't expect if i, or those like me, were to succeed that it would be any less messy or any more fair. Their names would just be in the history books more often along with all the blood and misery.

i'm a vengeful girl.

Vengeful girl my ass.

Krieger by day, slut by night, or try convincing that daddy of yours otherwise.

 

[PertPerth]

IMHO many women want to work, not for the need of money, but for the need of "being valued". I like to be needed at work - and I like that they pay me well. I know stuff, they value me.
A stay at home Mum doesn't get paid for her work and I'm not sure that I would feel valuable if I gave up my career when I have children. On the flip-side the mothers who do work, in some circles, are looked down upon for not doing their duty of 'raising their kids properly'. Then there are the people who look down on the women who don't have children, but do have a career. "The poor creatures who don't have a family because they want to work" are often outcasts (speaking from my experience as a single, childless female).
In my eyes, it's all a matter of what is valuable (to me, to society)? Unfortunately, it's a lose-lose situation at times.

 

[eastern sun]

but what about the women who don't have physical beauty or who are old? What then? is it going to be OK when you get old and your tits are sagging down to your belly for you to be cast aside and all the hard work you have done is to mean nothing? Or, perhaps you will start on an endless round of surgury to maintain the fiction of man's sexual plaything?

Beware the power of the crone. It is truly the untapped, disregarded (and hence potentially revolutionary because it'll take 'em all by surprise) feminine source these days.

And with the baby boomers, the numbers are growing - which in our society does hold some marketing power at least.

(Have you seen the number of older love interests in the movies these days? And they're not all rebuilt. Joan Rivers may have won Celebrity Apprentice last year with her $100,000 make-over; but Vanessa Redgrave looks old - and beautiful. And the 75 year old salsa queen on the aol headlines this week is shaking her flat saggy butt and making audiences scream.)

Beware the crone.

 

[where]

Beware the power of the crone. It is truly the untapped, disregarded (and hence potentially revolutionary because it'll take 'em all by surprise) feminine source these days.

And with the baby boomers, the numbers are growing - which in our society does hold some marketing power at least.

(Have you seen the number of older love interests in the movies these days? And they're not all rebuilt. Joan Rivers may have won Celebrity Apprentice last year with her $100,000 make-over; but Vanessa Redgrave looks old - and beautiful. And the 75 year old salsa queen on the aol headlines this week is shaking her flat saggy butt and making audiences scream.)

Beware the crone.

but still it all to do with sexual power. that's not equality. for every redgrave (and how often do you see her in a leading role these days, even in the theatre?) there are thousands and thousands of women who are disregarded and ignored because they no longer are deemed worthy because of the loss of their sexual allure.

Even in academia this is the case with the glamorous women getting the high profile jobs in the media because whilst we will gladly look at and listen to a brainy but ugly guy we won't tolerate the same from women academics. to this day we are still largely praised and valued for our looks and not our brains and ataxia's post illustrates this perfectly.

 

[eastern sun]

but still it all to do with sexual power. that's not equality. for every redgrave (and how often do you see her in a leading role these days, even in the theatre?) there are thousands and thousands of women who are disregarded and ignored because they no longer are deemed worthy because of the loss of their sexual allure.

Even in academia this is the case with the glamorous women getting the high profile jobs in the media because whilst we will gladly look at and listen to a brainy but ugly guy we won't tolerate the same from women academics. to this day we are still largely praised and valued for our looks and not our brains and ataxia's post illustrates this perfectly.

I don't disagree with you, but I would love to see old women rediscover their power.

Don't you think it's possible? Or are we too sickened and oppressed by our grandmothers' and aging mothers' expectations to allow it to happen?

 

[where]

I don't disagree with you, but I would love to see old women rediscover their power.

Don't you think it's possible? Or are we too sickened and oppressed by our grandmothers' and aging mothers' expectations to allow it to happen?

I don't feel oppressed by my mother's expectations, but rather by those of men closest to me who think that women need to try to conform to the hag or dear little granny as the post fertile stereotypes of madonna and whore.

but hell, I have PMT so my thinking is prolly skewed

 

[eastern sun]

I don't feel oppressed by my mother's expectations, but rather by those of men closest to me who think that women need to try to conform to the hag or dear little granny as the post fertile stereotypes of madonna and whore.

but hell, I have PMT so my thinking is prolly skewed

Men aren't going to change their minds, until women give them alternatives they find attractive and/or useful and/or un-extinguishable.

Shine on.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Vengeful girl my ass.

Krieger by day, slut by night, or try convincing that daddy of yours otherwise.

Yeah but i talk big

 

[ataxia.girl]

IMHO many women want to work, not for the need of money, but for the need of "being valued". I like to be needed at work - and I like that they pay me well. I know stuff, they value me.
A stay at home Mum doesn't get paid for her work and I'm not sure that I would feel valuable if I gave up my career when I have children. On the flip-side the mothers who do work, in some circles, are looked down upon for not doing their duty of 'raising their kids properly'. Then there are the people who look down on the women who don't have children, but do have a career. "The poor creatures who don't have a family because they want to work" are often outcasts (speaking from my experience as a single, childless female).
In my eyes, it's all a matter of what is valuable (to me, to society)? Unfortunately, it's a lose-lose situation at times.

i think this is true and not true. Many women do want to work. i wanted to. Now i want to and i feel like i "need" to or we take a huge lifestyle hit.

i'm all for women working but i do think there was an unintended side effect, one which may never come right. When most households changed from one bread winner to two it created a situation where there was more money for awhile. Families could afford more and to pay more. In other words demand went up and as demand went up so did prices and the cost of living. Now many families (most?) really no longer feel one bread winner is a realistic option whether it is in reality or not. i don't think that before most women entered the work place that single bread winner homes were really suffering because only one parent worked. Now days you have to be willing to make some pretty big sacrifices so one parent can stay home and raise the kids.

Many women work because they really do have to in order to pay the bills even if their man also works. Many women work because their perception is they have to even if they could theoretically give up a lot of extras and stay home, or the other parent could. Some women work because they want to work.

It was funny. i was talking to my husband about this last night because of this thread and once again in the course of the conversation it was assumed that i would be the one to stay home. Funny since he is actually the one who is always saying he wants to. Those stereotypes run very deep. As soon as i called him out he was like "oh yea, i would love to stop working."

 

[eastern sun]

i think this is true and not true. Many women do want to work. i wanted to. Now i want to and i feel like i "need" to or we take a huge lifestyle hit.

i'm all for women working but i do think there was an unintended side effect, one which may never come right. When most households changed from one bread winner to two it created a situation where there was more money for awhile. Families could afford more and to pay more. In other words demand went up and as demand went up so did prices and the cost of living. Now many families (most?) really no longer feel one bread winner is a realistic option whether it is in reality or not. i don't think that before most women entered the work place that single bread winner homes were really suffering because only one parent worked. Now days you have to be willing to make some pretty big sacrifices so one parent can stay home and raise the kids.

Many women work because they really do have to in order to pay the bills even if their man also works. Many women work because their perception is they have to even if they could theoretically give up a lot of extras and stay home, or the other parent could. Some women work because they want to work.

It was funny. i was talking to my husband about this last night because of this thread and once again in the course of the conversation it was assumed that i would be the one to stay home. Funny since he is actually the one who is always saying he wants to. Those stereotypes run very deep. As soon as i called him out he was like "oh yea, i would love to stop working."

In my opinion, we would all be better off if we questioned whether we really need all the things we work so hard to be able to buy.

In my own home, there was a conversation or two before my son was born in which my husband set out the plan - I would stay home and take care of the baby for the first three years. Then it would be his turn to stay home and I would work.

It never happened.

Another baby came along. Career interests couldn't be compromised. The parenting learning curve is pretty steep. Why start at the beginning three years down the line?

All of those conditions have led to the prevailing idea in our family that I (as woman) have a better instinctual grasp on this whole child-rearing enterprise. Therefore, it's my responsibility.

And I, quite willingly, buy into the idea of my God-given natural abilities, and adopt a whole earth mother/domestic slave persona, even while I have this nagging feeling that I've copped out on my obligations and responsibilities in the wider world outside my home.

Are women, with their biological maternal instincts, necessarily better parents, suited to local politics and the tending of their gardens? While men, biologically speaking, roam afield to hunt out additional resources and mark the boundaries of their territory?

Aren't we really animals underneath these fine clothes we worked so hard to buy?

 

[ataxia.girl]

Are women, with their biological maternal instincts, necessarily better parents, suited to local politics and the tending of their gardens? While men, biologically speaking, roam afield to hunt out additional resources and mark the boundaries of their territory?

Aren't we really animals underneath these fine clothes we worked so hard to buy?

i'm only better during the first year or two before they are really able to communicate much. After that the playing field levels out and my husband is just as good if not better. We tag team it for the most part.