An Open Letter To All First-Time Writers

[CWatson]

The other day, I read a story (not on this site) and sent the author some feedback on his careless punctuation. The answer I got was, "Well, you see, I consider myself more of a storyteller than an author, so, I don't need to worry about those details." And I thought about that answer for a while before figuring out why it bothered me.

The reason it bothers me is because it's self-contradictory.

First off, I don't really think it's possible to be a storyteller without being an author; almost every narrative endeavour in existence involves writing something down at some point. Stage productions have scripts; TV shows have teleplays; movies have screenplays; songs have sheet music. Eventually you learn to express yourself through the written word, because if not, you probably don't get anywhere. But that wasn't really my point.

My point was that, in actuality, you can't be a storyteller without worrying over the details. Either you're a storyteller and you sweat the small stuff; or you don't, and you're not.

You who are reading this right now: ask yourself a question for me. The question is, "Why am I doing this?" It's not for the fame? Is it for the industry cred? Is it for the money? There's little and less of that to be had--especially here, at an erotic-stories site, where we write under pseudonyms (most of us) and are hardly likely to receive monetary compensation for our efforts. Is it 'cuz you're bored? God, I hope not; writing because you've got nothing better to do is not a great start. So what is it?

There are basically two answers you're likely to give. The first is, "Because I'm trying to improve my writing through practice." At that point, you should, again, be worrying over the details. But the second is, "Because I wanna." Because you're a storyteller, goddammit--stories are what you do, and even if the only outlet you have is this tawdry collection of bits and bytes on the seedy side of the Internet, then you're gonna write, because you could sooner chop off an arm or leg than not write when you had the chance.

And, if that's your answer, then you worry about the details. Not "should worry"--"do worry".

Of course you do! You love storytelling: it's a passion! You eat, sleep, live and breathe it! And when you love something this much, you can't stand to let it be done wrong. Sure, it's work, but you don't care; it's a labor of love for you. Whatever you have control over, you get right. It really is that simple.

And hey: you have control over your grammar, your punctuation, and your spelling.

So, ladies and gentlemen, let me say this to you, as an experienced reader and as a storyteller: when I see your stories trot through with elementary errors, I question how much time--if any--I should waste reading it. Your broken details mean only one thing: that you're lazy. Come on, you can get this shit right. You get (or got) it right at school, and you get (or got) it right at work; if you aren't getting it right in your fiction, in something you actually care about, it's because you don't care. You don't actually care. And if you don't care enough to write this thing well, I'm not sure I care enough to read it.

Now, nobody says you have to care. I mean, I sure can't make you. But if you don't, why are you wasting your time? Nobody's gonna pay you for this. Nobody's going to thank you. It won't make your mom love you, nor that hot coworker you really wanna get with either. (Or both.) It won't make you rich, it won't make you famous. There's nothing to be gained from this "writing" business but self-satisfaction. So, if it doesn't satisfy you to do it, and do it well, why are you bothering? Go play World of Warcraft, or eat Cheetos, or masturbate. Go do something you actually enjoy. There's enough toil and drudgery in your life; for your own sake, don't add to it voluntarily.

But either way, you don't have an excuse for getting the details wrong. And if you claim you do, you're lying to yourself.

All the best to you.

~CWatson

 

[PhaonsBrother]

Yourawful writes great stories, he doesn't sweat the details. His grammar is atrocious, yet his stories are loved by many. I think there are a bunch of writers just like him here. Human brains are pretty nifty, if you don't punctuate, spell words correct, fragment, run-on, they can usually figure it all out. He's a great story teller, but really a terrible writer in the pedantic, English major sense.

 

[ILienBagby]

write and spell

It's simple: if you don't pay attention to the details, you don't care, and if you don't care, why should I? Imagine a singer who while singing a song, hummed every other line because he (or she) didn't bother to remember the words, or slurred the words and sang out of tune because she (or he) couldn't carry a tune or didn't bother learning the tune. Why would I or anyone else (except a parent maybe) bother to giv e the singer my attention?

It's a sign of our times. People think it is elitist to know something, to pay attention to the rules.

If you wish to drive a car, learn the rules of the road.

if you wish to write, learn the rules of grammar......and the only excuse for not spelling correctly is laziness.

Grammar and spelling are aids to a reader, convention that help a reader understand what you are writing. If you don't care for the reader, why should the reader care for you?

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Yourawful writes great stories, he doesn't sweat the details. His grammar is atrocious, yet his stories are loved by many. I think there are a bunch of writers just like him here. Human brains are pretty nifty, if you don't punctuate, spell words correct, fragment, run-on, they can usually figure it all out. He's a great story teller, but really a terrible writer in the pedantic, English major sense.

This is stupid. Punctuation evolved in the 16th century as printers's marks to aid reading. That hasn't changed in half a millenium.

There is a basic tenet in every discipline that you break the rules once you really master them - and for a purpose. From what you say. 'yourawful' is, in my mind, an arrogant, illiterate person who can't even write in the way readers expect and has the delusional chutzpah to think he's being a rebel rather than an idiot.

There are many ways to challenge the accepted values, and good authors do. This is just egocentric ignorance, sorry.

 

[sr71plt]

The other day, I read a story (not on this site) and sent the author some feedback on his careless punctuation. The answer I got was, "Well, you see, I consider myself more of a storyteller than an author, so, I don't need to worry about those details." And I thought about that answer for a while before figuring out why it bothered me.

I think you were presumptive and off the reservation to send feedback to an author who wasn't requesting it to begin with. I think the story author was polite not to just say "up your bucket."

Sorry, but there it is. If they haven't asked for help, you are a busybody to force yourself on them.

 

[PhaonsBrother]

This is stupid. Punctuation evolved in the 16th century as printers's marks to aid reading. That hasn't changed in half a millenium.

There is a basic tenet in every discipline that you break the rules once you really master them - and for a purpose. From what you say. 'yourawful' is, in my mind, an arrogant, illiterate person who can't even write in the way readers expect and has the delusional chutzpah to think he's being a rebel rather than an idiot.

There are many ways to challenge the accepted values, and good authors do. This is just egocentric ignorance, sorry.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=666254&page=submissions

I didn't make this character up and I can't really speak for him. I just used him as an example of someone who is not technically good at all, though he is beloved by many as a storyteller. Maybe it helps that he's writing incest stories, but every story he's posted has had over 100k views and a ton of votes.

Punctuation hasn't changed in half a millenium?

It is elitist to post open letters on message boards, and assume that the only way to write a good story is by being technically proficient. Writing a good story actually has very little to do with one's ability to get an editor's stamp of approval for following MLA standards.

 

[driphoney]

I think you were presumptive and off the reservation to send feedback to an author who wasn't requesting it to begin with. I think the story author was polite not to just say "up your bucket."

Sorry, but there it is. If they haven't asked for help, you are a busybody to force yourself on them.

How do you know he wasn't seeking feedback?

 

[sr71plt]

How do you know he wasn't seeking feedback?

Because of the way the first sentence of C.W.'s posting was written. If the author had sought the feedback, then the first sentence of the posting isn't written clearly.

While on the subject, I've been in commercial publishing--both as author and editor--for several decades, and what I found in starting to write for the Internet and e-books in erotica was that most of those reviewing stories in this field never got beyond high school English mentality and don't realize that commercial publishing is a whole other world.

I have been dinged, for instance, on using sentence fragments. Well, occasional sentence fragments are a perfectly acceptable technique in commerical publishing (helps SHOW several things, including intensity and a quickened pace). Reviewers not trained to commercial publishing can just get over it and/or stop reviewing in a world they haven't entered.

 

[driphoney]

http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=666254&page=submissions

I didn't make this character up and I can't really speak for him. I just used him as an example of someone who is not technically good at all, though he is beloved by many as a storyteller. Maybe it helps that he's writing incest stories, but every story he's posted has had over 100k views and a ton of votes.

Punctuation hasn't changed in half a millenium?

It is elitist to post open letters on message boards, and assume that the only way to write a good story is by being technically proficient. Writing a good story actually has very little to do with one's ability to get an editor's stamp of approval for following MLA standards.

He's a bad example. Most of what I saw was reasonable. I don't think the occasional mistake is what CWatson is talking about. Also, the writer you mentioned writes in a very casual style, it's his 'voice'. I might be wrong, but to me that's talent, that's the ability to use words, which is what elfin was talking about, if I understand correctly.

There are many, many examples of what CW is probably referring to, though he'll have to speak for himself, and many of them can be found right here asking for feedback.

Now, I'm not a grammar snob. I struggle with it and I tend to accidentally leave in some typos. I'm more than willing to overlook boo-boo's for a good story, especially on a free-read site. But if it's too bad and your readers struggle to get through it, you probably shouldn't make excuses.

 

[PhaonsBrother]

He's a bad example. Most of what I saw was reasonable. I don't think the occasional mistake is what CWatson is talking about. Also, the writer you mentioned writes in a very casual style, it's his 'voice'. I might be wrong, but to me that's talent, that's the ability to use words, which is what elfin was talking about, if I understand correctly.

There are many, many examples of what CW is probably referring to, though he'll have to speak for himself, and many of them can be found right here asking for feedback.

Now, I'm not a grammar snob. I struggle with it and I tend to accidentally leave in some typos. I'm more than willing to overlook boo-boo's for a good story, especially on a free-read site. But if it's too bad and your readers struggle to get through it, you probably shouldn't make excuses.

I'm just saying, this is pretty common, and okay by me:

"I was working on the boat when I looked over at my sister as she pulled her shirt over her head. My sister was wearing the smallest of small bikini tops. The little patch of tan fabric did little to support her D cup breast and barely covered her nipples. My sister's breast were nearly totally on display. Her nipples pressing against the cloth. I looked away embarrassed slightly at seeing my sister in so revealing an outfit. I was shocked my sister had such huge tits. I looked back over a few seconds later when I heard my Mom yell, "Mandy"."

 

[CWatson]

I think you were presumptive and off the reservation to send feedback to an author who wasn't requesting it to begin with. I think the story author was polite not to just say "up your bucket."

Sorry, but there it is. If they haven't asked for help, you are a busybody to force yourself on them.

Fair enough.

I've said before that I have very high standards, and I often have problems with figuring out when and how to apply them. Is it right for me to expect somebody else to live up to a level they aren't expecting from themselves? No, it isn't, and you're not the first person to tell me so. *wry smile*

But, you know? It bugs me. It bugs me, both as an editor and a reader, when someone expects me to take their story seriously even though they themselves don't. That's really all I wanted to say. *shrug*

(And, since I'm a writer, I couldn't help but expand that sentiment into a master's thesis. )

 

[CWatson]

I'm just saying, this is pretty common, and okay by me:

"I was working on the boat when I looked over at my sister as she pulled her shirt over her head. My sister was wearing the smallest of small bikini tops. The little patch of tan fabric did little to support her D cup breast and barely covered her nipples. My sister's breast were nearly totally on display. Her nipples pressing against the cloth. I looked away embarrassed slightly at seeing my sister in so revealing an outfit. I was shocked my sister had such huge tits. I looked back over a few seconds later when I heard my Mom yell, "Mandy"."

Do you know why it's okay by you? Because it's functional grammar. By the standards of this site, your quotation is above-average in quality. I mean, yeah, the narration is a tad clumsy, but it would be nice to have a comma before "embarrassed slightly", but F. Scott Fitzgerald proved you could get away without one; and as to the first, I've seen much worse. (Hell, written much worse, in my day.)

And no, I don't think that storytelling quality is measured by proper rule-following. I think that storytelling commitment is measured that way. And, as mentioned, I'm not sure how much time I want to spend on somebody who's just faffing off a story because he feels like it, without any care as to how it turns out. Am I a picky asshole? Hell yes. But I'm not the only one, and my message is to all the beginning writers out there who have fallen afoul of us, the ones who half-ass their stories and then complain that nobody takes them seriously. Of course no one does! Treat your story how you want it to be treated. If you want The Reader to take it seriously, you take it seriously.

 

[HornyVikingMN]

Very interesting debate! I hope it doesn't degrade into flaming...

Here's my take as a Lit-site reader and someone who does a fair bit of writing for other purposes: Writing is about communication. Writing well is about communicating better. Good grammar and punctuation is part of writing well.

I'll try to resist getting on a soap box and preaching, but sloppy writing does have a way of compromising the reader's experience. While our brains are nimble organs and can treat the occasional slip-up like a speed bump in a parking lot (uncomfortable, slows you down just for a moment) most of us wouldn't choose to drive on a road with speed bumps placed every 50 yards or so, either. We quite likely would have some unkind things to say about whomever built the road, too.

Sloppy writing, especially when it's clear the writer has no intention of "cleaning up" their work, places the reader in the position of having to do the writer's work for him/her. Typos are one thing, and unconvential use of the language can add to a story, too. Total disregard for readability, though, is just too much work for what is supposed to be pleasure reading.

 

[driphoney]

Very interesting debate! I hope it doesn't degrade into flaming...

I don't know ... you might be asking for a lot.

But, it is Christmas and what is life without hope?

 

[Skorpion49]

Your hope is here - the fair minded Skorpion! (Until someone treads on me...)

I am surprised to find myself agreeing with CWatson. Maybe I have read too much. And written too little...Certainly nobody taught me the elements of English grammar - but I must admit the "prose flows" with someone who knows...

And to HornyViking - yes, wish I'd thought of that name and yes, creativity counts. "I guess every rule was made to break..." but it doesn't hurt to learn the rule first.

Driphoney, Merry Christmas. Too much bitchin' on these posts ain't no good for nothin', nohow... CWatson, you count the negatives there? You know what I'm sayin?

 

[ILienBagby]

writing and grammar

I posted earlier, but I would like to post again to try to make my meaning a bit more clear.

Why are grammar, spelling, vocabulary important? Because they are dress for your story.
Read any of the interracial stories. One of the constants is a description of the clothing a heroine is made to wear by the man who turns her. She is made to wear a short skirt, a see-through blouse, high heels, no panties.......you know the drill. The dress is so that people will recognize the girl is a slut.It signifies.
So also is the grammar, spelling and vocabulary a signal....it is a signal that the author is writing in a professional manner, that the story is a considered matter.

By the way, I am a new author, my first story was posted a week ago. I attempted to make the first person heroine of the story a real person, and I tried, in an unspecified manner, to make her the controller in a situation in which the female character is usually controlled. I would appreciate some feedback.

 

[michchick98]

It's simple: if you don't pay attention to the details, you don't care, and if you don't care, why should I? Imagine a singer who while singing a song, hummed every other line because he (or she) didn't bother to remember the words, or slurred the words and sang out of tune because she (or he) couldn't carry a tune or didn't bother learning the tune. Why would I or anyone else (except a parent maybe) bother to giv e the singer my attention?

It's a sign of our times. People think it is elitist to know something, to pay attention to the rules.

If you wish to drive a car, learn the rules of the road.

if you wish to write, learn the rules of grammar......and the only excuse for not spelling correctly is laziness.

Grammar and spelling are aids to a reader, convention that help a reader understand what you are writing. If you don't care for the reader, why should the reader care for you?

I couldn't agree more. I've had my stories rejected here for a couple simple spelling mistakes, yet I've seen stories littered with spelling mistakes as well as misused or missing punctuation, grammar atrocities and endlessly long sentences/paragraphs get approved.

For me, as a reader, things like that detract from a story, no matter how great the story itself is, and I won't see it as a great story because the mistakes make the story not so great.

I think you were presumptive and off the reservation to send feedback to an author who wasn't requesting it to begin with. I think the story author was polite not to just say "up your bucket."

Sorry, but there it is. If they haven't asked for help, you are a busybody to force yourself on them.

With all due respect, sr, what makes you think the author didn't want feedback? Most free story sites I've read have an area to send the author of the story feedback. It's my understanding that simple mistakes made by the author would constitute feedback from the reader. Feedback is a way for the reader to tell the author what might have been lacking in their story or what could've been done differently (such as use of proper punctuation, grammar, spelling, etc).

I didn't make this character up and I can't really speak for him. I just used him as an example of someone who is not technically good at all, though he is beloved by many as a storyteller. Maybe it helps that he's writing incest stories, but every story he's posted has had over 100k views and a ton of votes.

I think you hit the nail on the head right there. He writes in one of the most (if not THE most) popular categories on Lit. I don't generally read that category, but I have looked at a few stories and the writing there is mediocre at best. In this particular instance, I think it's the category and subject matter that has the author being so popular.

I'm just saying, this is pretty common, and okay by me:

"I was working on the boat when I looked over at my sister as she pulled her shirt over her head. My sister was wearing the smallest of small bikini tops. The little patch of tan fabric did little to support her D cup breast and barely covered her nipples. My sister's breast were nearly totally on display. Her nipples pressing against the cloth. I looked away embarrassed slightly at seeing my sister in so revealing an outfit. I was shocked my sister had such huge tits. I looked back over a few seconds later when I heard my Mom yell, "Mandy"."

As a former volunteer editor for Lit, I think with just a general read through, I'd find several problems with this story. The repetitive use of "my sister" is the most glaring correction I'd make in this particular paragraph. I think after the first reference to "my sister" the reader would get the idea that the narrator/brother/whatever is looking at his sister.

So yeah, something like that would definitely cause me to click away from the story if I were reading it. I'm sorry, but as a reader, I'd like the author to write to please me, not just him/herself.

 

[Mrtouf]

Good grammar and spelling makes a story neat and presentable. While some readers might be more forgiving than others, it isn't going to kill you to run it through a spell checker or give it to someone to proof read for you. Compared to the time you may spend tearing your hair out trying to come up with that next line, or revising the plot to be more consistent, the time spent on presentation can't be a lot.

The difference between a story with great presentation and one with poor presentation isn't necessarily whether the writer cares, though. It can also be a question of whether they worry enough about each word, each sentence, each paragraph.

For example if you're like me, you'll very rarely get to the end of a line without using the backspace key or doing some kind of editing - unless, it's your lucky day and every word flows just right when you're typing, and there is no teh where there should be the. But this isn't always a good thing, it can be very difficult to actually finish a chapter what with all the on-the-spot editing going on.

Conversely, if you're not spotting and correcting mistakes while you're writing, you can probably finish a story effortlessly, even if there is a generous sprinkling of teh and the commas are on strike.

My point is, if everyone could switch between these extremes at will, they would. Since a lot of people apparently can't, don't be expecting an overnight transformation.

 

[Epmd607]

...


I think you hit the nail on the head right there. He writes in one of the most (if not THE most) popular categories on Lit. I don't generally read that category, but I have looked at a few stories and the writing there is mediocre at best. In this particular instance, I think it's the category and subject matter that has the author being so popular.

...

Varian_P is probably the best writer to ever post a story on this site, she was pretty deep into incest. Youbadboy, Mused, RGJohn also excellent one category(incest) authors. I read all categories, as far as I can tell there are no dumber writers or readers in one category as opposed to any other. Actually, NonCon stories might be the exception, they're usually one page sloppy messes.

There are poorly written stories in every category, and they usually get beaten up or ignored. I never read stories when people ask for feedback unless they're talking about something that sounds fresh. Writers learn quick when they're posting crap here, and when you're reading someone's story it only takes a few paragraphs to know the story isn't going anywhere.

I don't read the entirety of a poorly written story or seek out an author to tell them they're horrible and need to study grammar. If someone's writing is off and they keep pouting about how no one responds to them, they're probably pretty dense, and you can just find someone whose writing is worth the effort. No need to educate those who can't figure it out themselves, you know, when they keep getting two ratings and don't change their program.

 

[sr71plt]

With all due respect, sr, what makes you think the author didn't want feedback?

I've already answered Drip on that (because that's what the first sentence of the OP strongly suggests--if not true, the first sentence isn't constructed clearly), and, since C.W. has posted since then with a pretty clear response that the critique wasn't requested, I'm not sure why you are asking the question again.

Obviously, if the critique was requested, my comment isn't germaine. Equally obviously, though, the critique wasn't requested. And if a critique wasn't requested, my opinion of dropping a critique on the story writer's head unsolicited remains my opinion.

I don't ascribe to vigilante critiques. I think that's pretty arrogant.

 

[_Lynn_]

With all due respect, sr, what makes you think the author didn't want feedback?

I've already answered Drip on that (because that's what the first sentence of the OP strongly suggests--if not true, the first sentence isn't constructed clearly), and, since C.W. has posted since then with a pretty clear response that the critique wasn't requested, I'm not sure why you are asking the question again.

Obviously, if the critique was requested, my comment isn't germaine. Equally obviously, though, the critique wasn't requested. And if a critique wasn't requested, my opinion of dropping a critique on the story writer's head remains my opinion.

I don't ascribe to vigilante critiques. I think that's pretty arrogant.

When I read the initial post, I thought how nervy, and rude even. Arrogant fits well.

 

[driphoney]

Because of the way the first sentence of C.W.'s posting was written. If the author had sought the feedback, then the first sentence of the posting isn't written clearly.

While on the subject, I've been in commercial publishing--both as author and editor--for several decades, and what I found in starting to write for the Internet and e-books in erotica was that most of those reviewing stories in this field never got beyond high school English mentality and don't realize that commercial publishing is a whole other world.

I have been dinged, for instance, on using sentence fragments. Well, occasional sentence fragments are a perfectly acceptable technique in commerical publishing (helps SHOW several things, including intensity and a quickened pace). Reviewers not trained to commercial publishing can just get over it and/or stop reviewing in a world they haven't entered.

Somehow I missed this comment. Glad you cited me later.

I have to say that I was very pleased to see a comment from my college English professor (who happens to be a published poet) on my effective use of a sentence fragment.

I have a lot to learn, and like learning the basics in anything, it's good to practice the accepted techniques, but sometimes I wonder if we can stifle creativity by our absolutes around here. "Never do blah, blah, blah ..." or, even worse, if we see patterning that is different than is usually accepted here in a short story form, it might be declared "boring detail," "not enough dialogue", and so on. I'm slowly reading through a long novel--the first in a long time--and now that I've written a few chapters, and dealt with a handful of editors, plus read comments here (some I gave myself), I see things in his story that the average editor here would hammer. Yet, this author has several mainline books under his belt and was a journalist for years.

However, I took from CW's post the general idea that if you don't, as a writer, care about your writing, don't expect the reader to either. I didn't see it as arrogant at all. I see personal reviews here all the time that come across rather rough and arrogant because they're personally directed, but he was general in his comments. I do think he might fail to understand the level of ability, or rather inability, of many beginning writers here. Many just might be giving their best effort. I am.

 

[_Lynn_]

Somehow I missed this comment. Glad you cited me later.

I have to say that I was very please to see a comment from my college English professor (who happens to be a published poet) on my effective use of a sentence fragment.

I have a lot to learn, and like learning the basics in anything, it's good to practice the accepted techniques, but sometimes I wonder if we can stifle creativity by our absolutes around here. "Never do blah, blah, blah ..." or, even worse, if we see patterning that is different than is usually accepted here in a short story form, it might be declared "boring detail," "not enough dialogue", and so on. I'm slowly reading through a long novel--the first in a long time--and now that I've written a few chapters, and dealt with a handful of editors, plus read comments here (some I gave myself), I see things in his story that the average editor here would hammer. Yet, this author has several mainline books under his belt and was a journalist for years.

However, I took from CW's post the general idea that if you don't, as a writer, care about your writing, don't expect the reader to either. I didn't see it as arrogant at all. I see personal reviews here all the time that come across rather rough and arrogant because they're personally directed, but he was general in his comments. I do think he might fail to understand the level of ability, or rather inability, of many beginning writers here. Many just might be giving their best effort. I am.

Reading the initial post after giving it their best shot could intimidate some of those who might have asked for help otherwise too.

 

[sr71plt]

However, I took from CW's post the general idea that if you don't, as a writer, care about your writing, don't expect the reader to either. I didn't see it as arrogant at all.

You miss my point entirely. I wasn't (and haven't) commented on the content of the critique at all. I commented on the context. The vigilantism of giving critique at all where it was not solicited. And then being put off by the defensiveness of the response from the author receiving an unsolicted critique. My response would have been a simple "fuck off." (And I'm not prone to using the F word except in stories.)

I'm not at all trying to pick a fight with C.W. here. I had a strong opinion on the context of the OP--and C.W.'s response to that was fine as being C.W.'s opinion--and, without swaying from my opinion, I didn't quibble with it. I've only reiterated my opinion because you and Mich posted to it.

 

[hmmnmm]

Reading the initial post after giving it their best shot could intimidate some of those who might have asked for help otherwise too.

Potentially intimdating to someone whose interest is great but who also suffers equally debilitating awareness of their literary deficiencies, and, despite what some surfaces may appear to indicate, does care. Potentially.