Presented the opportunity....

[Netzach]

Not to be all "rah rah rah look at my omniscient morality license rabble rabble", but the idea that so many people would watch the hypothetical video (or even just not opposed to it) is quite concerning. OSG gets a pass on this because her sexual identity is not what many of us would call "normal" - not that that is a bad thing or that I am complaining about it or that I think I'm better or any of that bollocks - but that the rest of you don't have a problem with watching an actual rape occurring is, as I said, quite concerning.

Now commence the flames at my expense. If anybody wants some actual discussion, I'm here, but I expect at least enough to toast marshmallows on.

How is saying that you would watch it admission that you find nothing problematic? I definitely have a problem with Al Qaeda sawing people's heads off with knives but I watch a lot of things I'm not down with.

 

[StrayKat]

Then what brings you to SM?

Violence with consent. Violence that can be stopped if the both sides agree with that. Violence that can be fulfilling.
That differs a lot from mindless violence that exists only to destroy completely and doesnt stop until the unwilling victim is broken sometimes beyond repair.

That is difference between SM and real violence for me.

 

[Netzach]

Ok. Of the things that bother me in this world, a person deciding to watch a video of a terrible act is not that high on the list. .

But it's SO MUCH EASIER than getting upset about the people DOING terrible things, or putting your money into a women's shelter instead of a puppy shelter or protesting a war or covering a war or anything like that.

 

[Netzach]

Violence with consent. Violence that can be stopped if the both sides agree with that. Violence that can be fulfilling.
That differs a lot from mindless violence that exists only to destroy completely and doesnt stop until the unwilling victim is broken sometimes beyond repair.

That is difference between SM and real violence for me.

Ok, that's pretty much how it functions for me as well. But the part that's making me sexually excited frankly isn't the "off switch" part. The people who are talking about arousal aren't talking about some series of choices, but a non-choice of biological response.

The theoretical surveillance prison camera catching the cops plunger raping some dude isn't evil in itself.

The fact that I might be aroused on some level by such a thing doesn't stop me from wanting justice for that person and understanding it as wrong.

The fact that other people without any moral compass exist isn't my fault, or the surveillance cam's fault. They just are.

 

[bridgeburner]

Marquis,

Thanks for the thread!

As you know from previous conversations, I would watch. I wouldn't go look for such a thing, but if it were presented to me I would watch.

Whether or not it would arouse me would depend entirely on what I saw. My arousal isn't triggered by the actual reality of something --- as opposed to the seeming reality, i.e. I am aroused by staged rape videos that conform to my ideas of realistic and I am turned off by such when they violate my aesthetic criteria. Depending upon what I saw, a video of actual rape might not arouse me in the least. I have an especially sensitive empathy bone, so it's entirely likely that I'd end up in tears.

Would I feel guilty and horrified? Yes. I would be ashamed if I got off on the actual suffering of another person. I am horrified by lots of things that humans do....not least of which is getting off on the suffering of others.

None of this makes me feel in the least bit dangerous to children, puppies or the public at large.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I don't see it being much more heinous than watching a youtube video of an A-10 blowing an Afghan town to smithereens.

 

[BiBunny]

I think I'm odd in the fact that regular violence does nothing for me. I can't even watch horror movies. Or most action movies. They turn my stomach. But knowing how popular those things are, I have a hard time believing that there isn't a large subset of the population that gets turned on by them. (Yes, I realize movies are not the same as real life; I'm just using an example.)

However, sexual violence arouses me. It always has. I'm not sure what the difference is in my mind.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I don't mind the point of view that people who would watch this should be <whatever>, but your reasoning here is funny.

"Because osg is a sick perv, it's okay that she behaves like one. But that the rest here behaves like a sick perv, is concerning."

Rephrased:
It's okay when a male rapist rapes a woman, after all he is a rapist, but it's totally wrong when a guy rapes a woman.

that's pretty much how i read it: after all, it's universally understood that i'm a sick freak, so i get a "pass." but for the healthy and sane (i.e. everyone else) to actually desire the same thing..deplorable!!!

 

[ownedsubgal]

Because it's a long way from what I consider "normal" and my guess is the same applies to others. Note please that the next words following that were "not that that is a bad thing", but a mentality in which the concept of refusing sexual advances isn't foreign but doesn't exist is not exactly the most common thing in the world (note I'm going off something I remember reading from here in relation to you. If that's not that case, my bad. Also "identity" was a bad word to use, again).

how many people here are wired "normally?" we're all a bit off, hence my confusion over my weirdness being singled out, excused and disregarded.

 

[bridgeburner]

I don't see it being much more heinous than watching a youtube video of an A-10 blowing an Afghan town to smithereens.

No, I agree, but I can't watch YouTube videos of people tripping and falling or being bucked off horses or crashing through living room tables when their pole dancing goes awry, either.

Unless they're drunk and obnoxious frat boys. That I can watch....unless they look like they're going to cry, in which case I'm far too sentimental, and I can imagine them as toddlers with big weepy eyes and I'm done for.

 

[Netzach]

No, I agree, but I can't watch YouTube videos of people tripping and falling or being bucked off horses or crashing through living room tables when their pole dancing goes awry, either.

Unless they're drunk and obnoxious frat boys. That I can watch....unless they look like they're going to cry, in which case I'm far too sentimental, and I can imagine them as toddlers with big weepy eyes and I'm done for.

If there were such a cable channel as "frat boys fail at things and begin to cry" I don't know if I'd watch anything else.

 

[intothewoods]

But it's SO MUCH EASIER than getting upset about the people DOING terrible things, or putting your money into a women's shelter instead of a puppy shelter or protesting a war or covering a war or anything like that.

Yeah, and see Bunny's thread in the Cafe. There is a certain satisfaction derived from, well, at least I'm not that.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Homburg]

I would not. I don't think I would negatively judge someone else for watching it, nor for being aroused by it. I would certainly have an extremely poor opinion of someone profiting from said video, and certainly of the party performing the rape, but I think that goes without saying.

Admittedly, I am not turned on by consensual non-consent. I've done it a handful of times at the request of various partners, but it has always disturbed me, and I could not achieve climax doing it unless I gave up the charade and just fucked as I would normally do.

It's just not my thing.

I don't see it being much more heinous than watching a youtube video of an A-10 blowing an Afghan town to smithereens.

I don't tend to watch these sorts of things either. The really sanitised ones I don't mind so much. An MLRS going off is incredibly impressive, and I think it is an intense spectacle, but I have no desire to see what is down range.

I also do not visit the various site like Ogrish and the like, don't watch "Faces of Death", and don't care for "Law and Order SVU". It's lurid sensationalism of abhorrent topics.

Maybe, like others who have posted, I deal with human wreckage often enough that I don't find it entertaining. Fortunately, I don't see the cars until well after the accident, but I have seen my fair share of automobiles whose interiors were absolutely covered in blood, and talked with the surviving family members. Lurid tragedy does not entertain me.

Edit: I will say that this is an excellent question though.

 

[MisterSir]

how many people here are wired "normally?" we're all a bit off, hence my confusion over my weirdness being singled out, excused and disregarded.

Let's play follow the reasoning for a second:

1) You live in a world where refusing sexual advances is not an option that exists for you.
2) For an act to become rape, one partner has to refuse the advances of the other.
3) As a result, you cannot be raped.

Given that, is it starting to get through to you that other people may think your views on the matter are sufficiently skewed to become excusable? It's not difficult logic. No uses of the phrase "sick perv" have been recorded but those put into my mouth. Jesus, you make an effort to be inoffensive and people jump down your throat, I'm never doing that again.

Additional: I am quite aware that the hypothetical scenario involved watching a video, and I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that I don't from.

 

[PertPerth]

Lurid tragedy does not entertain me.

That about sums it up for me. Hell, I can't even watch "Funniest Home Videos" becuase I find it far too real-life- violent/tragic.

I've been thinking about this topic a lot and I have found it rather interesting to read people's responses. In my mind, there is a huge difference between real rape and a scene "rape". Rape exists in the world and shouldn't be ignored, but viewing it as entertainment...well...I just think that there are far too many things to watch in it's place.

 

[graceanne]

I think I'm odd in the fact that regular violence does nothing for me. I can't even watch horror movies. Or most action movies. They turn my stomach. But knowing how popular those things are, I have a hard time believing that there isn't a large subset of the population that gets turned on by them. (Yes, I realize movies are not the same as real life; I'm just using an example.)

I don't watch violence on TV, unless it's heavily sanitised. I won't watch action films, and when I do I leave the room during the icy scenes. I don't watch horror films. I don't watch CSI or any of their like. I didn't even see The Passion, although all of my christian friends did (I know what Jesus went through - I did a bible study on it. I don't need to see it, too). I have no intention of seeing it, or a lot of other movies that I've heard were good. I don't want it to ever get where that kind of thing doesn't bother me.

 

[graceanne]

That about sums it up for me. Hell, I can't even watch "Funniest Home Videos" becuase I find it far too real-life- violent/tragic.

[side rant]

Most 'comedy' annoys me these days, cause it's all centered around people getting hurt, humiliated, or made fun of. I don't think any of that is funny, and it just ANNOYS me.

[/rant]

 

[StrayKat]

The last time I had this conversation it was with a Women's studies prof who at least professed no personal interest in SM. Not someone who does some SM but then critiques the sexual impulses of others who are bent, because they're more bent.

Can you point exactly where and who was I critisizing?

For 10th time, and now I would kindly ask some people to read before they start jumping into conclusions:

I was stating my opinion that some of the people who are prone to blur their boundaries between fantasy and reality REALVIOLENCEtm wise are the ones that never actually experienced any kind of real violence on their own skin.

I never said anyone here in particular is that person, I never said expressing certain sexual impulses means someone is that person.

If you recognized yourself in my opinion about something general, that is your problem. If your sexual arousal works only when you see somebody being violated without consent, that is not my problem.
IF your sexual arousal can blur your boundaries between fantasy and reality to the point of taking next step and actually doing/getting involved/whatever in performing non-consensual violence on unwilling victims - then it is not only mine but the problem of entire community and you should be restricted if possible.

Now if I wasnt clear I would be grateful if you would ask me to clarify before you start accusing. It is funny that stating how your dick gets hard on seeing people die is completely fine here, yet expressing worry about existance of people who could go out and actually murder somebody to get their dick hard is not. And in the end you ask me from a high horse wth am I doing in SM if I my cunt doesnt start dripping at possibility to see someones mother, daughter or sister being raped for real? Seriously... who is criticizing who here?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Not to be all "rah rah rah look at my omniscient morality license rabble rabble", but the idea that so many people would watch the hypothetical video (or even just not opposed to it) is quite concerning. OSG gets a pass on this because her sexual identity is not what many of us would call "normal" - not that that is a bad thing or that I am complaining about it or that I think I'm better or any of that bollocks - but that the rest of you don't have a problem with watching an actual rape occurring is, as I said, quite concerning.

Now commence the flames at my expense. If anybody wants some actual discussion, I'm here, but I expect at least enough to toast marshmallows on.

Nah, plain marshmallows are fine. No toasting required.

I'm probably reiterating something a bunch of people have said already, but I know I never said I wouldn't have a problem with it.

There's every chance I would watch. I would want to watch, but I don't know if I could bring myself to do it, because I know, on a 'normal' level, it's not right to want to watch that.

But if I did, I know I'd feel awful about doing so. But I also know that there's every liklihood that under that disgust and fear and pity and sorrow, there'd be an undeniable pang or arousal.

Then underneath that, there'd be a lot of guilt for feeling that way. And then there'd be the guilt that *those* feelings were the ones turning me on.

And honestly, I'm selfish (and probably some other things) enough to make it all about me. It would end up being about my feelings, my reactions, my imagining of what it would be like, if that was me. I think I'd end up viewing it in a completely sterile way, and internalise it on one level, while being externally horrified.

 

[Netzach]

And in the end you ask me from a high horse wth am I doing in SM if I my cunt doesnt start dripping at possibility to see someones mother, daughter or sister being raped for real? Seriously... who is criticizing who here?

This has gotten from obnoxious to patently ridiculous. You can't possibly expect me or others to interpret what I said as you just did. On many levels, but chiefly this one:

If you look at the statistic links between those who commit violence and those who have had violence committed upon them this simply doesn't hold water, either. Sure, you said "some people" which I see now is the mealymouthed out. No matter what assertion a person, some people, whoever, tends to pull out of their butt - if you say "some people" it will be correct some of the time and not apply to anyone who feels it's directed at them. Even if three or four people reach the interpretation that it's a pretty insulting assertion, you will always be able to say it's directed at "some people."

I was stating my opinion that some of the people who are prone to blur their boundaries between fantasy and reality REALVIOLENCEtm wise are the ones that never actually experienced any kind of real violence on their own skin.

 

[StrayKat]

If you look at the statistic links between those who commit violence and those who have had violence committed upon them this simply doesn't hold water, either.

Sorry, I will check statistics about reality versus fantasy perception next time I state an opinion

Sure, you said "some people" which I see now is the mealymouthed out. No matter what assertion a person, some people, whoever, tends to pull out of their butt - if you say "some people" it will be correct some of the time and not apply to anyone who feels it's directed at them.

If anyone here feels my comment about blurred boundaries is directed at them, I would say they should really think about why they feel that way and how dangerous that might be for others.
But you are right, its ridiculous how selfcentered some people are, I will spare myself trouble explaining any further. Sure, if you all talk white and I say I see few black dots in your white you all have right to get mighty offended.
Np princess, I am out.

 

[minx1]

I admit to not reading all the thread, though I have scanned it.

To me this whole questions is about choice. Thats what draws the line between people like me and others here and active rapists and paedophiles, who use the arguments that they cant help doing it, its just an automatic biological reaction that they cant control.

Surely its about knowing boundaries??

Sure I find the visual, fantasy of forced sex hot. But the choice comes when deciding whether to watch something that shows the abuse of someone in real life. Someone who is forced without consent and who will no doubt suffer horrendous, traumatic consequences for the remainder of their lives.

When its a question of this..we all know where the on/off switch is. Its on the tv and it's on the dvd player. The choice is easy. You dont watch it.

Netz you are right though, the fact that people exist without a moral compass isnt our fault, but what is our choice, is whether we join them or not.

I enjoy the fantasy of forced sex, but I do not want to get my rocks off watching what amounts to someones life being destroyed.
I could watch and I could even perhaps feel aroused and I could equally choose not to feel guilty about watching, whether I took pleasure or not.
But there are some things I do not condone and do not want to be associated with. And even if a part of me were curious, my principles would kick in.

Again its a choice thing and I honestly believe that if I am not able to exert some self control over what I think is acceptable wank material, then I have a huge problem.

That responsibility has to start with us.

If we cant draw the line who can.

 

[irishwoody]

No - I would find that distressing...

Come on people - there is plenty in life thats really hot - involing two (or more ?) consenting adults than to get off on watching someone violate someone else against their wishes.

Between two adults (consecting) then anything goes. RAPE is not a turn on - Its just not sexy.

 

[rosco rathbone]

[side rant]

Most 'comedy' annoys me these days, cause it's all centered around people getting hurt, humiliated, or made fun of. I don't think any of that is funny, and it just ANNOYS me.

[/rant]

That's nothing new in comedy. That's as old as comedy itself.