Presented the opportunity....

[Primalex]

There is a world of difference between reality and fantasy, and it scares me that the boundaries are so blurry for some.

I don't get it.

1) What has watching to do with approval?

2) And do you really think it's better when someone enjoys a fake rape? Do you really think the orgasm comes from the thought that it is just faked? The fact that it is an illusion doesn't make anything better. Imagine a guy would seek out children to fuck and then he would fuck a 19 year old he thinks is 13. Does this make the guy a better person now?



To answer the original question(s) here, too:

Would I watch it?
Yes, I think so.

Would it arouse me?
I don't know, but might be.

Would I feel guilty if it would arouse me?
No.

Why not?
I can only feel guilt for the things I do or not do, not for the things I am.

 

[StrayKat]

It's so much easier to get upset over an image of a thing than the thing itself, violence on TV versus the violence outside the damn door.

Oh yes, I agree. I was saying that one cant actually experience violence in its true form unless it bursts through that door. And as long as someone watches violence on TV they are safe no matter how they might feel. Some people only see images and dont even dream how different the real thing can be, in my opinion those are the ones that are prone to blur the boundaries.
And only ever seeing violence on TV does generally come from leading protected, safe life.

I can only feel guilt for the things I do or not do, not for the things I am.

I dont know about you, but I did feel guilty about who I was several times in my life. And when I decided I was right in feeling guilty, I did my best to change and even succeeded few times.
Saying "its who I am" is not always good enough excuse for me.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I don't get it.

<snip>

And do you really think it's better when someone enjoys a fake rape? Do you really think the orgasm comes from the thought that it is just faked? The fact that it is an illusion doesn't make anything better.

Understand the difference between a roller coaster at a theme park (which safely simulates the sensation of a sudden fall) and actually driving your speeding car over a steep cliff?

One is exhilarating because it is an experience of safe fear. The other is simply terrifying because you are, um, dead.

 

[ZRT]

I wouldn't.

I know my tastes, I enjoy the simulation, I enjoy pretending that it's not simulation, but I won't feed those tastes at the expense of another like that.

I'm not ashamed of my tastes at all. I'm not proud of them, either, they're just me. But I take care in how I feed them, and this is over the line for me.

 

[Marquis]

Lots of good comments, glad to see this discussion has taken off.

 

[ownedsubgal]

For those of you who said you would watch the video, is it more because of a morbid curiosity or because you think you'd be turned on by it? Do you feel that by watching the video, even though it had already happened, you would be in some way implicitly approving of the act?

the answer to the second question is simple: no. the first is a bit more complicated. i would have no "morbid curiosity" about watching a film of an actual rape, and although i can say with 100% certainty i would find it arousing, that is not enough of a reason for me to watch something like that. i am inexplicably drawn to suffering, i am fascinated by it and comfortable with it...before i start rambling i'll just put it this way: i like regular harsh, cold fists to the face of reality. it is balancing for me, shows me that all is as it should be. there is no question this comes from the life that i have lived, most especially the childhood that i lived. while i over-empathize with the innocent young woman being violently gang raped, the elementary schooler being diddled by uncle jack, the foster kid being beaten and verbally mutilated by someone who views them as nothing but a paycheck, etc...another part of me is very cold and emotionless, and is even "glad" for their suffering, because they have received the invaluable gift of learning and seeing reality, the way life truly is. why i seem to only recognize great suffering and hardship as the way life truly is, i don't know or care.

 

[InternetAlias]

I haven't seen the whole movie, but I am definitely ambivalent about the rape scene. It doesn't make me uncomfortable, and it doesn't turn me on. It's just there.

Ahh. Watching it out of context of the plot could affect it's impact.

Understand the difference between a roller coaster at a theme park (which safely simulates the sensation of a sudden fall) and actually driving your speeding car over a steep cliff?

One is exhilarating because it is an experience of safe fear. The other is simply terrifying because you are, um, dead.

So I know people who are, albeit irrationally, literally terrified of rollercoasters. You'll find the distinction of it being safe or not makes no difference to them, they genuinely dislike the feeling (emotional and physical).

Frankly I find rollercoasters to be fairly uninteresting due to the explicit safety. I enjoy the physical sensation, but it's lacking that fear element. Some rollercoasters can sufficiently suspend my disbelief and introduce that genuine terror to some degree, which is what I find exhilarating - safety element be damned.

Basically I don't think the distinction you are trying to illustrate with your analogy is actually quite so obvious.

 

[intothewoods]

I have never been raped or seen rape. My guess would be that watching it in a movie is different from watching something real. I don't know if I would be turned on at some level or not. I will say that I have an issue (generally, not referring to this thread) with people who do not have healthy boundaries between fantasy and reality, so I can see that if that line were blurred, that might turn me off more than the images turn me on. So I guess my point is that even if rape in the abstract turns you on, plenty of other things can turn you off even moreso without it even being a matter of political correctness or whatever. Possibly an instinct for self-preservation or something.

 

[Pasifal]

No, too much violence not enough sex.


"Frankly I find rollercoasters to be fairly uninteresting due to the explicit safety."

You need to try The Cyclone at Coney Island....

 

[Primalex]

Understand the difference between a roller coaster at a theme park (which safely simulates the sensation of a sudden fall) and actually driving your speeding car over a steep cliff?

Your example fails.

a) Neither choosing the car nor the roller coaster makes the guy a "bad guy".

b) You compare in this example the real act instead of just watching what already happened - this is wrong. The question was not if we would record a real rape movie or commit rape.

So, what about this video? (it's rape free). Is it okay to watch such a video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX4eh3yem4I

 

[Primalex]

I dont know about you, but I did feel guilty about who I was several times in my life. And when I decided I was right in feeling guilty, I did my best to change and even succeeded few times.
Saying "its who I am" is not always good enough excuse for me.

This sounds like you changed what you did (not), not who you are.

Example:
You like chocolate. You become fat because you eat too much of it.
You can feel guilty about being fat and about eating too much chocolate. But you can not stop liking chocolate, so feeling guilty for liking chocolate makes no sense (at least in my opinion).

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Some rollercoasters can sufficiently suspend my disbelief and introduce that genuine terror to some degree, which is what I find exhilarating - safety element be damned.

I agree that the best thrill rides are those that come closest to convincing you that you are in real danger.

Your example fails.

a) Neither choosing the car nor the roller coaster makes the guy a "bad guy".

b) You compare in this example the real act instead of just watching what already happened - this is wrong. The question was not if we would record a real rape movie or commit rape.

Okay. Is enjoying watching someone's "terror" on a thrill ride different than enjoying watching someone's car crash and kill them?

Stated another way: Do I feel genuine revulsion and empathy for a murder I see in a film? Obviously, the better the work of art, the more genuine emotions it elicits. But no matter how real it is portrayed, no matter how convincing, no matter how disturbing, there is some part of me that knows that these are actors, acting out a script, and that the actors will get up and go home and have a beer.

I have no such consolation in response to actual murder, actual torture, or actual rape.

 

[jenniferbaby]

I'm thinking of the rape scenes I've seen in movies. There was child rape in "Woman Thou Art Loosed," nonconsensual fondling in "Crash," and a brutal gang rape in "The Accused." I wasn't turned on watching any of these and still have the scenes burned into my mind years after viewing them.

I also watched many Montell Williams shows where he interviewed countless women who were held against their will as sex slaves and endured years of torture. At some point, I stopped watching these shows because listening to the stories was horrifying for me.

It's important to know that these things happen to women. It's important to listen to the stories of rape victims and other victims of sexual violence. It's important to give these women (and men) platforms for telling the world what happened to them. That's as far as my curiosity and interest goes with it.

I would not watch a video of a real rape and it's a purely selfish reason why--because doing so would hurt me deeply. I am still hurt and affected by the scenes I've watched in movies, where I knew it was acting and I knew no one was actually being hurt. Now I avoid such scenes and avoid such movies where I know such scenes exist.

But then I think about the other side of me, the part that enjoys rape play and rough, sometimes violent sex. It's extremely arousing to me, and that's because in these cases, my right to say no has not really been impeded. Pushing boundaries is hot to me. Going over those boundaries without a person's consent is not.

I read that people enjoy watching violence and horror films are so popular because it gives people a way to express the anger and aggression within them. Oftentimes people experience abuse or pain at an early age and are unable to deal with it at that time and never fully deal with it as adults. So they interact with this pain by watching it in a safe environment. I've seen this in my father, who suffered a horrific childhood and has never dealt with the pain it caused, and who subsequently can watch hours and hours of horror films and often had me watch them with him when I was a kid. I'm not saying everyone who would enjoy watching a rape film has unresolved issues, but it's something to consider.

 

[eastern sun]

So what would you say, why some people can't really tell the difference?

I would say that someone was mentally ill if they could not tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

And, in my uneducated opinion, mental illness of this kind exists on a continuum from being just a little sick (i.e. the denial patterns in addiction) to full blown delusional insanity (i.e. schizophrenia, paranoia, and other psychopathologies).

Perhaps we are sick, and the human community should tell us in no uncertain terms that we are sick, isolate us, and attempt to cure us.

But I'm wondering . . .

Are we really talking now about the inability to tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

Or, rather, about the potential consequences of arousal that is triggered by images of fear and pain?

I totally accept and admit that my sexual arousal is triggered by fear and pain, my own or someone else's

Maybe I should be judged. Maybe I should be examined. Maybe I should lay myself on the table for dissection. . . . Does it help to know that molestation goes back a few generations in my family? Does it help to know my history of suicide attempts and addiction? Does it make me more or less acceptable?

Perhaps the underlying problem is that this conversation is insensitive. Perhaps it feels like we are revictimizing innocent victims, just by engaging in this discussion.

Have I, a one-time victim, like the pedophile with a history of abuse, become abuser in this thread?

Perhaps that is why the expression of my desire is so objectionable.

I am much more willing to accept that admonition, and might even curb my comments because of it, than an assumption that the only possible reason that I might want to watch the hypothetical video in question is that I have never known danger from my seat on a satin cushion.

 

[Primalex]

Stated another way: Do I feel genuine revulsion and empathy for a murder I see in a film? Obviously, the better the work of art, the more genuine emotions it elicits. But no matter how real it is portrayed, no matter how convincing, no matter how disturbing, there is some part of me that knows that these are actors, acting out a script, and that the actors will get up and go home and have a beer.

I have no such consolation in response to actual murder, actual torture, or actual rape.

Ahhh, wonderful. Why do you need consolation? Of course because you enjoy the thrill of watching the murder and everything around it. You feel good when Bruce Willis breaks the nose of this evil bastard - and then you can sleep peacefully, because you know that nothing bad happened.

Now where is the difference when you watch how Bruce Willis breaks the nose of an evil guy in real life? You don't have the consolation (except the one that he was evil and deserved it...).

But does this make you bad that you don't have the illusion? How can a grasp of reality be a bad thing? You know very well that the very moment you read this, dozens women all over the world scream and cry because they get raped. When you know this and watch a fake rape, how can there be real consolation? Your consolation is just an illusion used as an excuse for your guilt. That's it.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Ahhh, wonderful. Why do you need consolation?

One is real. One is not.

 

[Primalex]

Perhaps we are sick, and the human community should tell us in no uncertain terms that we are sick, isolate us, and attempt to cure us.

eastern, we are. There is no doubt.

 

[neci]

i was thinking about the rape fantasy as i read through this. i guess that for me, i do not view the sexual arousal from the standpoint from the perp or rapist but from the victim standpoint. for me the rape fantasy is not about just being tied down and helpless. it is the begining of the rape, being held against your will. no way to escape or get out. complete bondage of body. out of your control. shut down into a primal state of survival. taking it. riding it. but in turn saying fuck you to the rapist. telling the rapist that he can fucking take your ass or cunt or mouth, but he will not take all of you. holding onto that inner slut and spitting it back in his face. telling him to fuck off afterwords. to find someone who doesn't mind a smaller cock. not breaking down until after. survival completed. surrender time.
i don't know. i think the fantasy is about walking through that. surviving. continuing to be able to find pleasure. not letting the rapist continue to rape you with every future man you meet. being able to be ultimately free from that bondage. at peace. knowing that he may have taken your body but not you. so he did not get what he really wanted. in essence, you fucked Him.

 

[Marquis]

No, too much violence not enough sex.

So it's relative to the type of rape?

Interesting that this come up, in reading through the responses I inferred many of you were thinking of a violent gang rape type scenario, not what I had in mind at all.

Not that I wouldn't watch a violent gang rape video.

Hell, I'd probably watch an M/M prison rape video.

 

[ecstaticsub]

So it's relative to the type of rape?

Interesting that this come up, in reading through the responses I inferred many of you were thinking of a violent gang rape type scenario, not what I had in mind at all.

Not that I wouldn't watch a violent gang rape video.

Hell, I'd probably watch an M/M prison rape video.

Would you pay to watch a rape video? Even if it were just a few dollars?

 

[Aquila1]

I don't get it.

1) What has watching to do with approval?

2) And do you really think it's better when someone enjoys a fake rape? Do you really think the orgasm comes from the thought that it is just faked? The fact that it is an illusion doesn't make anything better. Imagine a guy would seek out children to fuck and then he would fuck a 19 year old he thinks is 13. Does this make the guy a better person now?



To answer the original question(s) here, too:

Would I watch it?
Yes, I think so.

Would it arouse me?
I don't know, but might be.

Would I feel guilty if it would arouse me?
No.

Why not?
I can only feel guilt for the things I do or not do, not for the things I am.

Well I don't know about you Primalex, but I can only answer from my own experience and knowledge. I'm a big-picture type thinker - that is how my brain is wired, and for me, anyway, I cannot shut down my awareness of cause and effect and consequences just because it suits me. My dog can do that, but I can't, won't, and don't choose to.

My experiences of rape - through dealing with other people, were complex and multi-layered. It doesn't just end after someone ejaculates, pulls their pants up, and walks away. You can stuff another handful of popcorn in your mouth and amble off to find the next 'show' to watch, but do you really think it ends there? It comes down to making to a person making a deliberate choice not to see the consequences out of convenience and denial - not because we rationalise it away by saying we feel no guilt. Guilt is pretty damn subjective if you ask me - particularly if you have chosen not to consider any consequences. That's where the boundaries between fantasy and reality become blurred IMO - if you are choosing to view rape in a certain way, and by that I mean removing all the context, history, and effect, then you are also creating a pretty dubious and subjective boundary. Snuff films and extreme non-consent films exist in correlation to actual demand.

 

[bobamabush]

No

Rape scenes show Man at his worst and any person being raped is robbed of their humanity and civilization has broken down.

 

[StrayKat]

I am much more willing to accept that admonition, and might even curb my comments because of it, than an assumption that the only possible reason that I might want to watch the hypothetical video in question is that I have never known danger from my seat on a satin cushion.

But you see, I was not talking about the reasons why you might want to watch such video, I was commenting on people that have blurred boundaries between fantasy and reality.
If you can watch such video and still be very aware that reality is totally different from whatever fantasy you have at that moment, I have nothing to say. But there are people who just might, because of mental illness or whatever reason, have disoriented perspective, and such videos just might affect their capability to understand difference. That is what I find scary.

Another thing is that I have my personal feelings, as I already said, from the maternal point of view, and if worst would happen and I would (unlikely) be in position to see someone taking pleasure in my child suffering - I dont think I have to tell you what would I do to that person. It is irrational and maybe unfair but its the way it is.
I might not like whatever turns you on, I might find it scary or sick or disgusting; and its my right to do so. I am not publicly judging you for it though, I was trying to define what kind of person may be the one that doesnt have clear idea about difference between fantasy and reality. In my opinion.

 

[Primalex]

It comes down to making to a person making a deliberate choice not to see the consequences out of convenience and denial - not because we rationalise it away by saying we feel no guilt. Guilt is pretty damn subjective if you ask me - particularly if you have chosen not to consider any consequences. That's where the boundaries between fantasy and reality become blurred IMO - if you are choosing to view rape in a certain way, and by that I mean removing all the context, history, and effect, then you are also creating a pretty dubious and subjective boundary.

Ah, but all this is true for fake rape videos, too.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I remember feeling kind of bad that I got a massive boner watching the rape scene from Sopranos.