Paris 1919; The Military Channel

[amicus]

http://military.discovery.com/tv-schedules/series.html?paid=52.14704.128274.38131.x

Based on the best selling book by Margaret MacMillan

This documentary tells the story of the Paris Peace conference - an event that remade the world. In the film, we see the world's most powerful men wrestling with the politics of fear and greed in post WWI Europe. Premiered in the United States on the Military Channel on Friday, November 13, 2009.

~~~

Most here have a smidgin of World History, some more than others, but to even the most knowledgeable, Paris 1919, might bring a few bits of knowledge heretofore unknown.

China lost a city of 1,000,000 to Japan as a 'new' map of the world was drawn; Black Shirted Fascists were in the streets in Italy, Hungary went Socialist and a country called, 'Iraq' was created with Kurds, Shiites, Muslems & Jews, if I heard the words correctly.

Quite an interesting, but sobering, program.

Amicus

 

[JackLuis]

The sins of our grandfathers!

A victory for the 'people' and a loss for the Aristocracy, a gain for the City of London and the beginning of another wretched mess in Mesopotamia.

I'll get the popcorn!

 

[amicus]

History...my first run at understanding 'history' was tempered and then damped down and finally irksome as more and more I realized that 'history' changed depending on who wrote it. A new 'discipline' Historiography, nudged its' way into being, thus, I come away from Paris, 1919, with mixed feelings.

The American President, Wilson, was seen, so the program said, as the 'savior' of Europe, with America, "winning the war" and turned to, to 'win the peace'. Although the 'European Conference', approved the League of Nations, the American Senate did not ratify the Institution and thus Wilson's efforts failed.

Further, John Maynard Keynes was mentioned several times as a 'financial broker' for England and was presented as a pragmatic accountant who was skilled in effecting compromise in monetary matters.

Further, the Germans declared they had not, 'lost' the war, but signed a truce or an armistice, to stop the fighting and yet were relegated to a cold basement during the treaty negotiations, ended up not signing the treaty and scuttling their Naval Vessels.

'Hindsight' enables one to conclude many things, but seeing all the original black and white footage of the era tended, for me at least, to widen and deepen a sense of the 'history' of that event...

dunno..had hoped more had watched it...

amicus

 

[dr_mabeuse]

My understanding of the Treaty of Versailles--and I presume this is what the show's about--was that it was a total fuck-up, with the French putting such screws to the Germans that they practically guaranteed WWII. Germany was made to accept total responsibility for WWI and was not only stripped of its arms and army, but lost a bunch of land, and, worst of all, was saddled with repaying the entire cost of the war. France, having pretty much gotten its ass kicked in WWI, exacted its revenge by imposing these humiliating conditions on Germany, and Germany would never forget it.

One of the results of saddling Germany with this enormous debt was that the German mark was allowed to deflate and become practically worthless, in order to enable Germany to pay their war reparations in worthless money. Thus came about the horrible hyperinflation that resulted in a loaf of bread costing several million marks, and people having to literally tote wheelbarrows of cash around when they went to market.

The hyperinflation undermined social stability, and communists and right-wingers fought pitched battles in the street with rifles and machine guns. It was this anarchy--always so horrifying to Germans--that led so many Germans to enthusiastically support Hitler's rise to power.

Most of this came about because of the pride and intransigence of France, who were not as interested in peace as they were in revenge. Wilson tried to head them off, but he was run over and ignored. Wolson didn't have the political muscle to head off the French.

Its kind of ironic that 25 years later, Truman would have to mollify the French once again after WWII by promising to help return their Indochinese colonies to them, thus setting the stage for the VietNam war.

 

[amicus]

Yes, French Indo China, Dien Bien Phu, if memory serves. Not to defend the French, as I have pretty much an identical recollection of the History as you expressed, however, the north of France was reduced to a literal wasteland with homes, factories and livestock devastated while Germany suffered few if any civilian losses during the conflict. This from the program.

The Treaty also stripped Germany of her Colonies around the world and introduced the concept of "Independence" for former colonies that eventually spread to the British and the Italians.

I meant to do a search on Keynes during that era to trace how he and his Economics rose to prominence in later years...perhaps another time...

Amicus

edited to add:
http://www.maynardkeynes.org/john-maynard-keynes-economist-world-war-1.html

24 December 1917 Keynes writes to his mother - again in a pro-Russian revolution, anti-British establishment tone:

"My Christmas thoughts are that a further prolongation of the war, with the turn things have taken, probably means the disappearance of the social order we have known hitherto. With some regrets I think I am not on the whole sorry. The abolition of the rich will be rather a comfort and serve them right anyhow..."

~~~

With Keynes supporting the Communist Revolution and the bolded portion(mine), this rather keynotes the later direction of Keynesian thinking, to increase the role of government in relationship to the market place.

~

 

[Loring2]

J. M, Keynes

A brief recap on John M Keynes who of course is the single economist most responsible for our present financial crisis as well as all efforts to repair these problems.

This because President Obama, Ben Bernanke and Tim Geitnner are all strong followers of Keynes. Keynes advocated the position that business and business cycles can be controlled, even fine tuned by fiscal policy. Alan Greenspan is a disciple as well.

Arthur Laffer and Milton Friedman disagree but even they disagree only in methodology and scope. The alternative schools of economics are referred to the Chicago School and the Austrian School.

Economics is called the Dismal Science by it practitioners and many maintain that if economics is a science at all then the tooth fairy is a beauty queen.

Keynes, a Cambridge man of tall stature died in 1946

 

[ishtat]

Keynes, a Cambridge man of tall stature died in 1946

I kinda guessed you'd get something right if I read to the end.

 

[oggbashan]

The French also wanted revenge for 1870 when the Prussians had defeated them, besieged Paris, and created the conditions for the short-lived commune.

The French thought that they could deprive Germany of the means of waging war by destroying the German economy. Many couldn't understand that reparations were impossible because Germany was effectively bankrupt in 1919. What the terms did was create the conditions for another war.

Germany didn't start World War 1 - the Austro-Hungarian Empire did. The Austro-Hungarian Empire didn't survive. Germany took the blame but in reality all the countries involved should have shared the blame for the start of that war. Unlike WWII with Hitler's and Japan's massive land grabs, the "aggressors" in WWI had no clear strategic intention - just to defeat the other side.

Og

 

[ishtat]

.

. Wilson tried to head them off, but he was run over and ignored. Wolson didn't have the political muscle to head off the French.
.

Anyone who wants to understand 1919 should read "The Economic Consequences of the Peace" by JM Keynes. I know that some cannot see Keynes except as an economist, but he was there and his brief descriptions of the participants and their motivations are exceptionally illuminating. His description of Wilson for example "like a Presbyterian minister" somehow captures the President's well meaning sincerity but also his abject naivety.

http://www.gwpda.org/1918p/keynespeace.htm

However much anyone believes they may despise Keynes, read this piece because there is no doubt he captured the mood of the participants.

Dr M's attribution of fault to the French is largely correct but most of the other powers came out of it with no credit either. Wilson in my view was better intentioned but worse in the results achieved than almost anybody.

His 14 points speech of January 1918 was essentially the basis on which the axis powers expected to be treated. That didn't happen because Wilson had done nothing to ascertain whether there was any widespread support for his plan before announcing it.

Incidentally many Americans do not seem to be aware that Wilsons speech was originally inspired by his desire to respond to and support Lenin's Decree on Peace of October 1917.

Points 10 to 13 of Wilson's 14 were largely adopted .This meant the breaking up of the German, the Austro-Hungarian and the Turkish Empires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Points

A shatter belt of ineffectual self determined states was created from the Baltic to the Balkans, Syria and Palestine were given to the French and the British respectively. A non State was created called Iraq based on lines drawn by a British civil servant and the old middle eastern Empires of Turkey and Persia were contained at the behest of British Oil interests (plus ca change?) Incidentally, no self determination for non-white moslems.

Wilson's naivity in Foreign policy was to some extent mirrored by Rooseveldt in response to Stalin at Yalta 25 years later.

PS I'm surprised that no-one has pointed out that the Civil servant who drew Iraq on a map was a woman.

 

[Loring2]

Oh Great Master

I kinda guessed you'd get something right if I read to the end.

Tell me oh great master of economics, where do we disagree so that I may purge myself of such evil and simple thoughts.

I'm wagering that you're too damn stupid even to respond.

 

[Dragonlipz]

http://military.discovery.com/tv-schedules/series.html?paid=52.14704.128274.38131.x

Based on the best selling book by Margaret MacMillan


~~~

Most here have a smidgin of World History, some more than others, but to even the most knowledgeable, Paris 1919, might bring a few bits of knowledge heretofore unknown.

China lost a city of 1,000,000 to Japan as a 'new' map of the world was drawn; Black Shirted Fascists were in the streets in Italy, Hungary went Socialist and a country called, 'Iraq' was created with Kurds, Shiites, Muslems & Jews, if I heard the words correctly.

Quite an interesting, but sobering, program.

Amicus

More television history, Mon Ami???
Wouldn't it be far more satisfying AS WELL AS: informative....if you did your own research instead of relying on some grad students' focus on what was or wasn't?????
Your choice.....but watching the history channel for an accurate recounting of history makes as much sense as watching to Playboy Channel to understand sex, neh???

 

[Boxlicker101]

The French also wanted revenge for 1870 when the Prussians had defeated them, besieged Paris, and created the conditions for the short-lived commune.

The French thought that they could deprive Germany of the means of waging war by destroying the German economy. Many couldn't understand that reparations were impossible because Germany was effectively bankrupt in 1919. What the terms did was create the conditions for another war.

Germany didn't start World War 1 - the Austro-Hungarian Empire did. The Austro-Hungarian Empire didn't survive. Germany took the blame but in reality all the countries involved should have shared the blame for the start of that war. Unlike WWII with Hitler's and Japan's massive land grabs, the "aggressors" in WWI had no clear strategic intention - just to defeat the other side.

Og

It's true that Germany did not commit the first aggressive act, but Austria-Hungary was emboldened to do so by the knowledge that they had the full support of Germany.

I agree that the nine major powers involved, as well as some of the smaller ones, all deserve some blame, although the US deserves less than any of the others. Possibly the only completely innocent nation involved in the war was Belgium.

 

[oggbashan]

It's true that Germany did not commit the first aggressive act, but Austria-Hungary was emboldened to do so by the knowledge that they had the full support of Germany.

I agree that the nine major powers involved, as well as some of the smaller ones, all deserve some blame, although the US deserves less than any of the others. Possibly the only completely innocent nation involved in the war was Belgium.

The lesson: Don't write blank cheques for anyone.

Og

 

[JackLuis]

More television history, Mon Ami???
Wouldn't it be far more satisfying AS WELL AS: informative....if you did your own research instead of relying on some grad students' focus on what was or wasn't?????
Your choice.....but watching the history channel for an accurate recounting of history makes as much sense as watching to Playboy Channel to understand sex, neh???

And Amicus was trying so hard to be nice, then you had to prick his balloon.

The end of the First World War, was the end of an era. Modern Industrial Progress, as applied to "Politics By Other Means," had raised the technology of war to a point where it could no longer be left to Generals. Accountants, were needed and Bankers and of course the war industries. So many mouths to feed now.

WWII was just a continuation of the Resource struggle of the Colonial powers and the US, who was dragged in because of our, control over most of the world's developed oil, at that time.

Paris 1919 was a time to gloat and a time to derange to world in a way only a Frenchman would appreciate. Not that the Brits were unopposed to taking some of the German territories.

Wilson, was sold a lot of shit by way of his academic past and lack of understanding of how the Deals made in the salons of Paris. For a Princeton lad, he shows me a lack of scope to his thinking, and proved to be mere window dressing for the Conference.

I ran across an interesting book a few months ago, written to convince the conference that was a residual of the Treaty of Versailles negotiations, where the British and other Chemical industries were trying to break patents the Germans had for Dyes, and nitrate production.

The Germans had made explosives in a way that surprised the British and French, in WWI and they wanted to break the patents.

Written in ~1925, as I remember, it was interesting that it mentioned the use of Nuclear power as being a possible weapon.