Sestinas are hard. Feedback?

[Chocliterary]

I say, “it could be worse. We’re not in pain.”

“Sometimes you run out of ado to make”

She pauses eating toast, (as always, plain) -

And, quietly, as if it were a wake.

Looks out and notes “it has begun to rain.”

Though her meaning I still refuse to take.



You can’t go back. Love has no second take.

Sometimes the script has laughs when you’re in pain.

The curtain lifts each morning when you wake.

The stage? Boring, and all the actors plain.

This is the monologue I start to make,

Before I am drowned out by starting rain.




The thin windows struggle against the rain,

In a tone I didn’t know that I could take,

As the walls shake as if they were in pain,

I plan our tomorrow. “At eight, we wake”

My voice flat and lifeless as the plain.

“What for breakfast, do you think, we should make?




“What for breakfast do you think we should make?”

I repeated myself through the crashing rain,

Because the storm my airy words did take.

The din outside has become quite a pain:

We should decide on this before we wake.

For reasons which, I think, are clearly plain.




A wall flies off, connecting house and plain.

Repair impossible for me to make.

But on her face, rather than any pain,

A calm expression do her features take.

That of a queen, comfortable in her rain,

Rather than a mourner at her own wake.




At this, my perception begins to wake,

Her initial meaning becoming plain:

It is who you eat with, not what you make.

She throws the door open, faces the rain.

“Take everything you feel you need to take.”

She smiles at me. “I doubt we’ll be in pain.”




Free from pain, your hand is all that I take,

We make our way into the sheeting rain –

And drown in plain human voices’ wake.

 

[BooMerengue]

This is terriffic! You're right... these bastards are hard. I've been trying for 4 yrs and I haven't even come close. But fear not. You'll get some chatter on this. Angeline pops these out like corn muffins and The Foolloves them, too!! hehehe Good job, Choc!

 

[champagne1982]

Boo! Yes sestinas are difficult but I couldn't agree more that Choc has done a really good job here. The rhyme's hard to fit in, nevermind maintaining word order. Nice work!

 

[BooMerengue]

Hello Dahlink!! How the hell are you? I've missed you so much! You and a bunch of others!! Where is everybody? Good to see you!

 

[poetedge5455]

Hi. don't hate me.

Hello fellow sufferer, lol.

Before I give feedback on this, since it is my very first post, I want you to understand that when I ask for feedback, I am more interested in what I did wrong or didn't work. I probably already know what is right, and I am ruthlessly strict with myself. I am usually unsatisfied with even my published poems.

So, I am not attacking you, ok? I don't comment on things that I think have no chance of being good just to release my own frustration. I want to try to help, and if you completely disagree with my comments that is fine, I just want you to understand that I made them in love and kindred spirit of us both chasing our elusive muses and interpreting their language into ours. Ok? And I promise to post some work that I look forward to you eviscerating, lol.

Ok. Feedback. Yes these mothers are hard. I have been writing thirty years and teaching for ten and have only completed two sestinas to my satisfaction (attempted dozens, lol). Ironically, the one I screwed up (I juxtaposed word order incorrectly in the third verse) is the only one I would even submit. That actually was about flaws, and I like the fact that I inadvertently made a mistake while writng about flaws, lol.

But here, with this poem you made it harder on yourself by choosing the herculean task of RHYMING the sestina. Kudos for bravery. I love a challenge myself that's why I try structured poems frequently, so admire the attempt. However, I also look at it as I would a man defending a lion attack with a kitchen knife instead of the rifle right next to it. There's a chance he may live, but the smart money's on the cat.

Compounding that, you chose a/b rhymes which share the same pitch (ay, which is like middle C of the vowel sounds) so right away we have a problem of stagnancy in the sound when it is read. This could work to advantage since the theme has rain, a monotonous, white noisy kind of sound, as its base. However, for me, the ay sound doesn't evoke rain. I think a higher pitch, short I (slid, skid, skip) for the sound of rain against solids, or the lower pitch of ah (flotsam, sodden) or, oh (ocean, floating) for the sound of rain impacting water, would serve the poem better. You did that with usages of 'pauses' 'notes' 'script' 'thin' 'tone' etc., so. I can tell you have he ear. I think using those sounds in the end words would be more powerful. Perhaps your style is more subtle, and that is purely subjective, but if you want us to get wet, then drench us, lol. Read The Bells by Poe. If a reader can't HEAR those bells in that poem, they are tone deaf, lol.

The combination of the repetitive words (a rule of the form) the rhyme, and the same pitch, calls too much attention to itself and doesn't allow me the reader to forget the form and be immersed in the story.

The key to successfully writing repeating forms (I am partial to pantoums myself) is not to fight the form but either mask it somehow, or choose subjects enhanced by the repetition and monotony, like seasickness, or boredom. Sestinas force you to use every 'trick' in a poet's arsenal, sound, word length, rhythm, wordplay. Here you allowed a few things to escape. Like two of your words have natural homonyms (plain/plane and rain/reign) that could have broken the repetition. You uses reign, I believe but mispelled it, (or I misinterpreted the line) And plane has the dual benefit of having two meanings and functions as both a noun AND verb. You used this weapon well with wake (alliteration, anyone, lol), in the poem, and I really think it worked well.

But, this verse doesn't work for me;

The thin windows struggle against the rain,

In a tone I didn’t know that I could take,

As the walls shake as if they were in pain,

I plan our tomorrow. “At eight, we wake”

My voice flat and lifeless as the plain.

“What for breakfast, do you think, we should make?

Ok. I do enjoy the SCENE. The images are nearly perfect, and the self-reflection mirrored by the unsteadiness of the windows and walls is very good.

But, I don't like 'struggle' for the window verb. It gives the windows too active a role there. I think it is the perfect opportunity to raise the pitch of the poem with a word like quiver or perhaps lower it with tremble. Both more passive verbs so we don't picture the window going to battle with the rain, but being buffeted by it (god, bbb, lol).

And you absolutely MUST replace SHAKE and. EIGHT. Shake isn't vivid enough, and another time is just as good, and, we really don't need any more AY sounds, do we?

In the fourth (and subsequently the fifth) line, I would consider this revision because I think you had the words, but not the order. And I felt this when I put myself in the scene.

My voice as flat and lifeless as a wake
I plan our tomorrow.....

Maybe 'flat' isn't perfect, but I think this combination raises the tension a bit, preparing us for the climactic tearing that is coming.

Line five now I admit I am stuck for something great. Four syllables left. 'We'll catch our plane' (???)
Not good, but I would rather have this problem and have a great image above it.

The last line doesn't work at all. It is typical of the treachery of the sestina. It forces you into horrible sentence structure. You are dangling and calling attentiion to the only word in the line that doesn't need it. In fact, since we have already heard it repeated, it needs to be hidden as well as it can be.

Say that line out loud. I can see you have a sense of imagery and rhythm, and despite this long critique, I really like the story. Your images and metaphors are provocative, and that is why I want you to hone this. So, I know if you speak that line out loud, you will grimace along with me and Strunk and White, lol.

That will solve my last problem with the piece. YOU REPEATED IT! And then SAID you repeated it. Look out for that lion. Eeeeek!

Ok, if you are still reading and not searching my profile for a physical address to lie in wait and kneecap me, I beg again that I have a life, and would not take the time to comment on something if I didn't think it was savable. I think, minus the clunker line 6, and the unnecessary extra AYS, it has some very good lines and images. But I think your choice to rhyme, etc., stop it from being a superb poem. One, as Dickinson says, that makes you feel like that top of your head's been taken off.

Finally, I will end in pure empathy, because not only are sestinas hard to write, they are even harder to revise, because of the domino effect. No line is isolated- each one is tethered to the next like no other form so it is like building a house of cards, with mittens on. ;p

Blessings and peace.


“What for breakfast do you think we should make?”

I repeated myself through the crashing rain,

Because the storm my airy words did take.

The din outside has become quite a pain:

We should decide on this before we wake.

For reasons which, I think, are clearly plain.




A wall flies off, connecting house and plain.

Repair impossible for me to make.

But on her face, rather than any pain,

A calm expression do her features take.

That of a queen, comfortable in her rain,

Rather than a mourner at her own wake.




At this, my perception begins to wake,

Her initial meaning becoming plain:

It is who you eat with, not what you make.

She throws the door open, faces the rain.

“Take everything you feel you need to take.”

She smiles at me. “I doubt we’ll be in pain.”




Free from pain, your hand is all that I take,

We make our way into the sheeting rain –

And drown in plain human voices’ wake.[/QUOTE]

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I don't think this sestina follws the rules, well not as I have them anyway, as to where the lines should go. The second stanza should be end word 6/1/5/2/4/3 of the first stanza. I've done 3 of the damn things but only because I had to!

 

[Chocliterary]

@ Under your spell: I had to change the word order because I was trying to rhyme it.

@ Poetedge: That's a great analogy; Thanks a lot for your insights. I tried to make it as difficult as possible as a kind of challenge, but if definitely came at some expense of the poetry. So as a poem, there definitely are a lot of issues. And I definitely felt the domino effect while trying to edit it: if I changed one end word, I had to change 6 and an entire tornada. I might even try scrapping the rhyme or the meter and seeing how good the poem itself is.

A couple things smaller things: I did try to use the rain/reign thing, wasn't sure which spelling I should go with because I was trying to evoke both. Probably should have gone with the latter. Plane as a verb would have been an excellent addition, and a revision could very well include that so as to avoid repetition. The tough part was that I wanted the words to be generic enough that I could rhyme them and use them over and over again, but that definitely is a straitjacket when it comes to avoiding the repetitiveness inherent in the genre.

 

[Angeline]

First off, welcome Choc and poetedge to the forum--you both came in like gangbusters with a sestina and very detailed critique. We just love that around here.

Choc, I think you wrote a good sestina, and it is imho the most demanding form because of the length. You have a nice rhythm going and a mostly lyrical voice and it sounds natural. I also like how you marry concrete (something you said) with universal experiences that draw in the reader. I kind of get a Prufrocky feel from it--the sound moreso than the subject.

Otoh you've let the form get the better of you in places, and where you do you get Yoda-speak forced phrasing (like Though her meaning I still refuse to take. Lines that are forced with extra words like (the script has laughs can lose has or be rephrased to get rid of the, and that's one of many examples). And in some places I think you just couldn't find the best phrase so you have some placeholders that you should be able to edit out with better images (for example, you can't really "make" a monologue--it's grammatically fine but not a great juxtaposing of words). "starting rain" is another example. It's not wrong but it sounds awkward. I also would rethink the punctuation cause I believe you are cutting off sentances where lines change and this works against the natural rhythm of the read.

You've written both a sestina and a really good poem. It deserves editing to be a great (and definitely publishable) poem. It is a keeper.

And poetege, it is great to see someone new who does such terrific critique.

I vote for you both sticking around.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

So this is still a sestina then Angeline? Even with changing the word sequence around? So if I did something like this for the challenge on any of the forms it would be acceptable? Sorry I don't buy that, if you change a form around then it's not the original form ....... call it what you like but it's not a sestina. No offence and all that

 

[champagne1982]

So this is still a sestina then Angeline? Even with changing the word sequence around? So if I did something like this for the challenge on any of the forms it would be acceptable? Sorry I don't buy that, if you change a form around then it's not the original form ....... call it what you like but it's not a sestina. No offence and all that

I agree, to a point, Annie. It's like a cross between a ballad (another 6 line strophe) and the sestina with the rigorous word repetition... Maybe we've been audience to the birth of another literotica bastard form... The ballasesto--

 

[EroticOrogeny]

Let me start off by noting I have't done my Survivor Sestina yet (and with most of the easy triggers gone as well!).
Three different sources agree on the strict end word ordering of a sestina - a convenient place to look is the Survivor Rules thread. There seems to be a little more freedom in the tercet.
I like Champagne's ballasesto.
All that said, good work and keep on submitting. You've receieved some useful feedback.

 

[Angeline]

So this is still a sestina then Angeline? Even with changing the word sequence around? So if I did something like this for the challenge on any of the forms it would be acceptable? Sorry I don't buy that, if you change a form around then it's not the original form ....... call it what you like but it's not a sestina. No offence and all that

Well I didn't go in and count words or anything, but I always figure it's close enough for jazz as they say.

It looks to be 36 lines and has the repetitions. Maybe it's off a bit but that never bothers me. I know others who feel as you do though.

Upon reading it again, I believe I shall call it a sestinelle.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I agree, to a point, Annie. It's like a cross between a ballad (another 6 line strophe) and the sestina with the rigorous word repetition... Maybe we've been audience to the birth of another literotica bastard form... The ballasesto--

Well I didn't go in and count words or anything, but I always figure it's close enough for jazz as they say.

It looks to be 36 lines and has the repetitions. Maybe it's off a bit but that never bothers me. I know others who feel as you do though.

Upon reading it again, I believe I shall call it a sestinelle.

LOL Well we have two good names there to choose from and as I have never got round to creating my own form (though I've threatened to on occassions) the originator should have the choice of what it is to be called!

 

[Chocliterary]

The prescribed word orders don't work for rhyming sestinas, because it mangles the original rhymes. I think I got my word orders from here:

http://www.volecentral.co.uk/vf/sestinavar1.htm

Sidenote: If I ever tried to rhyming double sestina, I would likely gouge my eyes out with a spoon before it was done.

 

[Angeline]

The prescribed word orders don't work for rhyming sestinas, because it mangles the original rhymes. I think I got my word orders from here:

http://www.volecentral.co.uk/vf/sestinavar1.htm

Sidenote: If I ever tried to rhyming double sestina, I would likely gouge my eyes out with a spoon before it was done.

I once wrote a rhyming sestina in iambic pentameter. I didn't write another sestina for about two years after that, which should tell you how I feel about them. I didn't get the meter right everywhere, but I think I mostly did.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

So we don't need a new name - its a 'rhymed sestina', which has different word order rules than a plain sestina.

 

[poetedge5455]

Thank ypu for the welcome. Thanks also for the relief that my comments were taken in the right light.

As for the rules, and whether it is a 'real' sestina, the more successful poets who used this form broke most of the rules to get the point across.

I learned it as six stanzas of six, verse two. To six being 6 1 5 2 4 3 of previous. Envoi, which some the pros leave out is either three lines: line 1 using word 1 in middle word 2 at end words line two 3,4 line three 5,6. Or two line envoi using 1. 3, 5 and 2,4,6 respectively.

I tend to be less rigid with form and will call it what it looks like. I suppose for a contest, then yes be strict. But if I am writing a poem for expressing something, and decide at the beginnig to use a form, I will try my hardest to stay in the form, but if it comes down to sacrificing the message the thoughts or the form, the form loses. And then I don't care what you call it, so long as it moves you.

I admit to using forms in an unorthodox manner. Nowdays I tend to use them when I have too much to say for a poem, but not enough for a story. Then the restrictions of form automatically make me cut out the deadwood quickly, and help me find what I am trying to say. So I have a lot of hybrids. I was going to mention that choc wrote a sestinelle, but actually restricted the form further by using one sound insteas of two.

First off, welcome Choc and poetedge to the forum--you both came in like gangbusters with a sestina and very detailed critique. We just love that around here.

Choc, I think you wrote a good sestina, and it is imho the most demanding form because of the length. You have a nice rhythm going and a mostly lyrical voice and it sounds natural. I also like how you marry concrete (something you said) with universal experiences that draw in the reader. I kind of get a Prufrocky feel from it--the sound moreso than the subject.

Otoh you've let the form get the better of you in places, and where you do you get Yoda-speak forced phrasing (like Though her meaning I still refuse to take. Lines that are forced with extra words like (the script has laughs can lose has or be rephrased to get rid of the, and that's one of many examples). And in some places I think you just couldn't find the best phrase so you have some placeholders that you should be able to edit out with better images (for example, you can't really "make" a monologue--it's grammatically fine but not a great juxtaposing of words). "starting rain" is another example. It's not wrong but it sounds awkward. I also would rethink the punctuation cause I believe you are cutting off sentances where lines change and this works against the natural rhythm of the read.

You've written both a sestina and a really good poem. It deserves editing to be a great (and definitely publishable) poem. It is a keeper.

And poetege, it is great to see someone new who does such terrific critique.

I vote for you both sticking around.

 

[BooMerengue]

Holy cow! I'm on the floor excited! I LOVE all this critique! Poetedge? I'm so glad you're here. You can critique mah stuff anytime darling! (said in my best southern, tho I should say So. CT cuz thats from whence I hail! Ange? YodaSpeak? Falls sideways off mah chair in stitches. Boy am I glad I'm back!! Love y'all!!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Can we please make sure Lauren doesn't read this as there are still 3 challenges to go!